View Poll Results: Why did leave WBCCI ?
Cost too much 13 15.85%
Not enough value for the membership fee 23 28.05%
Too many rules 31 37.80%
I don't need to belong to group to enjoy camping 29 35.37%
Bad experience 15 18.29%
Other reason(s) 19 23.17%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-04-2017, 07:38 AM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airtandem View Post
I remember a RADIO program called "The Don McNeil Breakfast Club". As it was, prayer was said before the meal (one was eating at home) it was something like this:
"Each in his own words and each in his own way, let's bow our heads and pray".
Eliana; I think YOU showed some disrespect in "walking out". I have gone to different homes and churches and I respect their methods of worship, I am Catholic. I don't try to change them, and don't try to change me; religion, politics, guns or money etc.
I recently went to a Morman Festival in Navoo Il. and attended most of their outside activities, only Mormans can go in the Temple. Not once did anyone come up and try to get me to join, but they did explain their beliefs. They did make me feel welcome.
MJ
Wow. Not sure how to reply. Thank you for insulting me. Are you one of those people who thinks "Jewish" is just another protestant (i.e. Christian) denomination? Everything you say you attended was Christian. I too have attended Christian weddings, Buddhist temple, and a vast array of other religious services. I didn't get up and walk out. Why? I knew that I was going to a place of worship. I also respected that.

The Airstream Club is NOT a Christian organization. It is a CAMPING club. I did not rudely get up and walk out in the middle of their service. I had breakfast with everyone, and then when it was apparent that they were transitioning to a Christian worship service, I told everyone goodbye, wished them safe travels, and told them I enjoyed the rally and meeting everyone. I was polite and respectful. And YES, I left. No one is obligated to participate in an event planned in a CAMPING club which is clearly against their religion.

It is responses like yours which insure that some of us will never come back. Your response shows a profound lack of sensitivity, ignorance, and intolerance.
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Old 10-04-2017, 07:39 AM   #202
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Did you see this rally happening this coming weekend north of Columbia? Sounds like fun. Paula
Thanks! No, but I DID actually sign up for another rally in Nebraska City, NE beginning tomorrow!
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Old 10-04-2017, 07:45 AM   #203
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Eliana,

Never met you and you've never met us but if you walked by at a camp I was at and made any comment about having an Airstream or our Airstream I'd offer you a chair at our campfire or awning whatever the season dictated. Conversation starts there for us in camp.

We have a common interest, camping first Airstream second.

Regards,

Gary
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Old 10-04-2017, 07:53 AM   #204
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Hi Peter,

"Ambushed" is actually accurate. I joined a CAMPING club. Not a religious organization. But as to your other question, no, I don't think anyone is obligated to change the way they do things just because it wasn't my thing. The group probably had always done things the way they were doing them. They were for the most part, older white Christians. Most were at least in their 70's. Many in their 80's. There was no diversity. Probably they had never encountered someone of a completely different faith or ethnic background. But it doesn't matter. I don't have anything negative to say about the group. They were nice people, and were very welcoming. But the fact that they insert religion into every activity, and that religion is not MINE doesn't obligate my participation. But it also does not imply that I think they should change just because their practices are not in line with my own. It just means I won't be back... Their practices exclude anyone who doesn't fit those practices. Probably NOT by design. More by accident, I would think.

The question posed was "why did I leave?" I think my official answer would be "lack of inclusiveness", or just "ignorance of the value of diversity". There are other groups out there. ) . Some have reached out to me here.
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Old 10-04-2017, 08:08 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Eliana View Post
Wow. Not sure how to reply. Thank you for insulting me. Are you one of those people who thinks "Jewish" is just another protestant (i.e. Christian) denomination? Everything you say you attended was Christian. I too have attended Christian weddings, Buddhist temple, and a vast array of other religious services. I didn't get up and walk out. Why? I knew that I was going to a place of worship. I also respected that.

The Airstream Club is NOT a Christian organization. It is a CAMPING club. I did not rudely get up and walk out in the middle of their service. I had breakfast with everyone, and then when it was apparent that they were transitioning to a Christian worship service, I told everyone goodbye, wished them safe travels, and told them I enjoyed the rally and meeting everyone. I was polite and respectful. And YES, I left. No one is obligated to participate in an event planned in a CAMPING club which is clearly against their religion.

It is responses like yours which insure that some of us will never come back. Your response shows a profound lack of sensitivity, ignorance, and intolerance.

Well said, maíam. I myself enjoy a lil church, as that is how I was raised and I have a soft spot for gospel music. But I would never expect someone who was raised differently to join me if it made them uncomfortable. And most certainly not while weíre campin. Some folks forget that we live in a secular nation where not forcin your beliefs on others is one of the primary principals our flag stands for. Pledging allegiance to that flag and then criticizin someone for not prayin with ya is a contradiction.

It sounds to me like ya made a very polite and acceptable exit.
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Old 10-04-2017, 08:08 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by GCinSC2 View Post
Eliana,

Never met you and you've never met us but if you walked by at a camp I was at and made any comment about having an Airstream or our Airstream I'd offer you a chair at our campfire or awning whatever the season dictated. Conversation starts there for us in camp.

We have a common interest, camping first Airstream second.

Regards,

Gary


Yep. Exactly. Well except that I donít carry extra chairs.
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Old 10-04-2017, 08:13 AM   #207
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Thank you for the invitation! The funny thing for me is that I grew up in Wyoming, and there was a reasonably large Jewish congregation which is now over 100 years old. And there was quite a bit of ethnic diversity. In WYOMING! Pretty weird, when you think about it. So when I moved to Kansas City, I WAS surprised that some people didn't even know what "Jewish" IS. There were people who said "Is that like being Presbyterian?" LOL

Personally, I would never expect anyone to provide kosher food. My children don't keep kosher, and I don't even expect them to do that. And the truth is, they CAN'T do it because they don't have a kosher kitchen, and really don't understand the rules. However, they are kind enough to avoid service pork/shellfish at family dinners. For me, that is good enough. Because they are my kids, and I love them. )

Anyway, thank you. I appreciate the response.

Eliana
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Old 10-04-2017, 08:32 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Eliana View Post
Wow. Not sure how to reply. Thank you for insulting me. Are you one of those people who thinks "Jewish" is just another protestant (i.e. Christian) denomination? Everything you say you attended was Christian. I too have attended Christian weddings, Buddhist temple, and a vast array of other religious services. I didn't get up and walk out. Why? I knew that I was going to a place of worship. I also respected that.

The Airstream Club is NOT a Christian organization. It is a CAMPING club. I did not rudely get up and walk out in the middle of their service. I had breakfast with everyone, and then when it was apparent that they were transitioning to a Christian worship service, I told everyone goodbye, wished them safe travels, and told them I enjoyed the rally and meeting everyone. I was polite and respectful. And YES, I left. No one is obligated to participate in an event planned in a CAMPING club which is clearly against their religion.

It is responses like yours which insure that some of us will never come back. Your response shows a profound lack of sensitivity, ignorance, and intolerance.
Can we get an "AMEN" to that?

I was just "elected" (more correctly coercion-by-pleading) to an officer's position in our WBCCI unit. The Sunday morning breakfast-worship-service is somewhat an imposition on our time, IMO. I wonder how the unit will feel if/when they see me dispense with that.
I sometimes see led-prayers as manipulative conscription of my time. I know how to pray silently without being forced to participate in someone else's idea of it.... And I don't see it much different than a rude interruption of my personal thought processes.
Think about it. When someone interrupts a large group's interactions with one-another with an announcement "LETS ALL BOW OUR HEADS AND PRAY".... it is actually a theft and a take-over of the group's activities.

To add insult to the injury.... the individual who does not participate is made to feel badly for his own belief system.
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Old 10-04-2017, 08:38 AM   #209
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Since you asked:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...ml#post1469645

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...ml#post1469867

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...ml#post1470626

Two years ago while I was having service done to my AS at JC, I was "dragged" over to WBCCI headquarters by the one person who recruited more members to WBCCI than Wally himself, and I met with the staff there. They all agreed that this never should have happened. What they were somehow unable to do was to resolve the issue - how and who should take ownership of it. Last winter Jim Cocke was camping at RoVers' Roost (the Escapee co-op where I happen to have a leasehold). He agreed that this should never have happened and asked me to email him the history, which I did. I have heard nothing since.

As someone who had worked drafting tax law for the Canadian government, I am very aware of the process that has to be followed for any change in law to be implemented. In Roberts Rules of Order, a change to the bylaws requires that the entire membership has to be polled and the change cannot be moved forward until 2/3 of the entire membership agree. Then, and only then, should it be submitted to the higher level for approval - for WBCCI that would mean the person designated (which was Don Shaffer).

So the issue is supposedly now something the IBT has to resolve - that's like dragging a dead elephant across a field; they'll wait for the carcass to rot out.
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Old 10-04-2017, 09:00 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by blkmagikca View Post
SNIP

So the issue is supposedly now something the IBT has to resolve - that's like dragging a dead elephant across a field; they'll wait for the carcass to rot out.
This is funny but also SO TRUE!
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Old 10-04-2017, 09:09 AM   #211
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Hokey smokes, Bullwinkle! Eliana and blkmagikca - you've had some "interesting" experiences to say the least! I've seen absolutely none of that in my local unit so I feel fortunate. I think if I had seen otherwise, I'd not choose to be a member either.

I consider myself a lousy, highly imperfect example of a man who has faith. The notion that such should be part of a camping club feels like a hangover from the 40s.

I'm not a faith-hater - quite the contrary. But whose faith? Which flavor? Which brand? How does that apply to dumping my poop out of the trailer at the end of the trip?

The topic of firearms is never even discussed at my local unit's rallies. Maybe some carry, certainly some don't. If anyone's carrying, they're not talking about it or brandishing their weapons around the campfire! And if they carry because they want protection on hikes from bears and mountain lions and such - who is the club to prevent that? Let alone to squeeze around established procedure to discuss and vote.

Dang - it gets depressing. Sorry to hear of both your experiences. As real as they are, they're complexly 180 degrees from what I've experienced over the last 5 years. That's not meant to diminish your experience at all - just meant to say there at lots of local units - if you can find one you resonate with, it can be a good thing (I've made some wonderful life-long friends, learned a ton, hopefully given back something despite still being a bit of an idiot on all things technical/mechanical...) and it's been a great experience for us.

I guess at a wicked high macro level (yes, I grew up in MA ) we're all part of the "human" club and since no one of us is perfect, any club you're in won't be perfect either. You can't not join the "human" club - you're in it - but you don't need to be in the WBCCI (or is it the WBAC now?) if you don't want to.

On that note - this imperfect gentile peace lover wishes shalom to all and may you never need to use your firearm

Be well!
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Old 10-04-2017, 10:04 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Boxite View Post
I sometimes see led-prayers as manipulative conscription of my time.
Actually, that's how I see clubs in general. There ain't any shortage of campers or campgrounds in this nation. If I wanna meet other campers, all I gotta do is open my door. If I wanna socialize around a campfire (which usually ain't my thing), all I gotta do is take a walk.

A club is just life with more rules made up by folks who just wanna tell other folks what to do and how to do it.

Meetin people ain't hard. Avoidin them is much harder, in my experience.
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Old 10-04-2017, 10:14 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by TravlinMan View Post
Actually, that's how I see clubs in general. There ain't any shortage of campers or campgrounds in this nation. If I wanna meet other campers, all I gotta do is open my door. If I wanna socialize around a campfire (which usually ain't my thing), all I gotta do is take a walk.

A club is just life with more rules made up by folks who just wanna tell other folks what to do and how to do it.

Meetin people ain't hard. Avoidin them is much harder, in my experience.
AMEN
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Old 10-04-2017, 10:57 AM   #214
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I asked around my shul, and someone told me that there ARE actually Jewish camping groups.
The Escapees RV club has a "Birds of a Feather" subgroup called "Yehudim Al Galgalim" (Jews on Wheels).
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Old 10-04-2017, 01:26 PM   #215
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Can we get back to posting experiences of why we left instead or debating how what was said.

It's sounding like tow/tire threads.

Knowing what makes different people uncomfortable or hesitant to remain in WBCCI is very important to keeping the organization going.

In reading the archival documents of WBCCI religion was definitely a part of the activities of the early groups but that doesn't mean it needs to or will remain that way.

Nothing is constant except change.
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Old 10-04-2017, 04:34 PM   #216
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Funny, but when I was in the club years ago the prayers didn't bother me. What did bother me were the campers that couldn't leave their campsites without a cocktail or beer in their hands, and I enjoy a cold one or two at my site.
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Old 10-04-2017, 06:31 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Boxite View Post
Can we get an "AMEN" to that?

I was just "elected" (more correctly coercion-by-pleading) to an officer's position in our WBCCI unit. The Sunday morning breakfast-worship-service is somewhat an imposition on our time, IMO. I wonder how the unit will feel if/when they see me dispense with that.
I sometimes see led-prayers as manipulative conscription of my time. I know how to pray silently without being forced to participate in someone else's idea of it.... And I don't see it much different than a rude interruption of my personal thought processes.
Think about it. When someone interrupts a large group's interactions with one-another with an announcement "LETS ALL BOW OUR HEADS AND PRAY".... it is actually a theft and a take-over of the group's activities.

To add insult to the injury.... the individual who does not participate is made to feel badly for his own belief system.
I am not aware of anyone who has been made to feel badly for non-participation. If you don't want to participate, eat breakfast, hook up and leave. It is entirely your personal decision and I will still respect you at the next campout. You also had the option to decline being an officer as others have done.
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Old 10-04-2017, 07:11 PM   #218
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Again, I find it interesting that those that chose to leave or not join the WBCCI must discuss the club incessantly.


The club lives on, rent free in the heads of those that don't like it.


I wonder, if one doesn't like a restaurant, do some continue to eat there?






Regards,


JD
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Old 10-04-2017, 07:57 PM   #219
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jdalrymple -> The question was asked why people chose to leave, possibly to attempt to address these issues for the betterment the club. I replied. My reply does have validity, which has been acknowledged right up to the very top of the club. Yet despite this, nothing corrective has been done.

Disabuse yourself of the notion that the WBCCI lives on "rent free" in my thoughts - it doesn't.
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Old 10-05-2017, 06:07 AM   #220
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Wow. Not sure how to reply. Thank you for insulting me. Are you one of those people who thinks "Jewish" is just another protestant (i.e. Christian) denomination? Everything you say you attended was Christian. I too have attended Christian weddings, Buddhist temple, and a vast array of other religious services. I didn't get up and walk out. Why? I knew that I was going to a place of worship. I also respected that.

The Airstream Club is NOT a Christian organization. It is a CAMPING club. I did not rudely get up and walk out in the middle of their service. I had breakfast with everyone, and then when it was apparent that they were transitioning to a Christian worship service, I told everyone goodbye, wished them safe travels, and told them I enjoyed the rally and meeting everyone. I was polite and respectful. And YES, I left. No one is obligated to participate in an event planned in a CAMPING club which is clearly against their religion.

It is responses like yours which insure that some of us will never come back. Your response shows a profound lack of sensitivity, ignorance, and intolerance.

Well said.

You are welcome at our campfire Anytime (except we don't do campfires lol)

Rich
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