Airstream Interstate vs. Winnibago Era FACTS

[rogerdog1]

I have a Leisure Van Unity Murphy Bed w/the Leisure Lounge Plus seats on order. Should see it in May. It had the perfect layout for us, and we liked everything about it. We loved our Airstream International, but just got tired of hitching/unhitching, and liked the larger bed and residential sized shower in the Leisure Unity.

[sthrngary]

Originally Posted by rogerdog1

I have a Leisure Van Unity Murphy Bed w/the Leisure Lounge Plus seats on order. Should see it in May. It had the perfect layout for us, and we liked everything about it. We loved our Airstream International, but just got tired of hitching/unhitching, and liked the larger bed and residential sized shower in the Leisure Unity.

Yep, I totally get your logic. It is always best to order your new unit. It allows you to get exactly what you want. It also allows for a better financial deal from the dealer because they have NO "Floor Plan" expense.

I am a little confused why you would have to wait until May. This is a little excessive. I wrote post/blog on production/efficiency. It is based on the use of lots of standard features vs. every thing is an option. The RV industry is starting to take notice of this production approach as the Automobile industry did 20 years ago. Same, the RV industry in sales, service, price strategies, quality and communication is 20 years behind the Auto Industry.

Be well and stay healthy.

Gary T, The "RV Advocate"

[sthrngary]

Originally Posted by Tronadora

Gary- thanks for the extra insight into the current state of Tiffin, and your other comments.

Wouldn't it be great if a mature end user, like so many of us are here, could be in charge of advising those RV assembly workers about quality... make them live in their own creation for one night a week or some other method to help them "get it". Maybe this is not relevant, but I have seen and talk to many who have seen a decline in the quality and commitment and work ethic from today's younger folks.

We too have seen and are impressed by Pleasure Way products. The one my wife liked (murphy bed near the front and nice full bath in very back) reminded me of a Japanese apartment... or one of those new ultra modern urban efficiency units... slick and innovative, but it's still like 80 square feet and starts to feel plain and lacking in storage. Lots of frosted glass but almost no windows. Maybe we'll take a deeper look there at their other offerings... but I think the LTV Unity Murphy Bed model with the recliner chairs is going to be high on any list we may make.

Agree that the Atlas may be, or may become, the best choice in its class.

Cheers,
Mark

It is NOT the young folks that are the problem. It is the leadership and coaching team. REMEMBER, "When the fish stinks, it stinks from the head first." There is a lot of stinking going on right now.

I know that I did not buy the coach I wanted because of the leadership team at Entegra Motor Coach changing so often and the core company that owns Entegra. They blow out the folks that had a deep connection with the Brand, quality, customer service, professional communication and other things that make a clients true "Ownership Experience". So I did not spend $340,000.00 (discounted) and instead went to a company I could trust, Airstream.

Wait, Airstream is owned by Thor Industries and Thor is owned by Jayco. So is Entegra. How could that be the case. Because Jayco almost killed Airstream many years ago and now Airstream is simply left alone. At least one smart move. Wish they could have done that for Entegra.

Another sided note, the NEW Entegra/Jayco GM used to work for Entegra, left with negative words and now came back to run the show. Who did he work for while gone, Tiffin of course. Funny how an increase in compensation can make enemies friends again. Oh well.

Do I sound bitter, I am. I really wanted my 45 ft Anthem diesel pusher. I would have had it if giant corporations understood the path to profit is the "Clients Ownership Experience".

Gary T, The "RV Advocate"

[RandyNH]

Originally Posted by sthrngary

Wait, Airstream is owned by Thor Industries and Thor is owned by Jayco. So is Entegra. How could that be the case. Because Jayco almost killed Airstream many years ago and now Airstream is simply left alone. At least one smart move. Wish they could have done that for Entegra.

Wait. What? No, no. Thor owns Jayco..

Jayco was acquired by Thor Industries in July 2016 for $576 million

And Jayco actually formed Entegra, they didn't purchase it and not leave it alone, although they did but another company and create Entegra from it, I doubt you were looking to buy a Travel Supreme at any point.

[wachuko]

Originally Posted by sthrngary

"I only want to improve on the battery/solar capacity after we get it to try to minimize use of the generator. I wished they had gone with a diesel generator and heater system"

2018 has 300 watts of solar power vs. 100 in 2017. Can't ask for more then that. The batteries is another story. They are deep cell AGM batteries and I wish they were lithium. I also wish they had an area that we owners could put the 12 inch AGM's in or just two more 6 inch without taking storage away from the owner. Lithium is the answer here. On the generator. I asked on this one. I want diesel generator also. If you will notice, the NEW Airstream Atlas "B+" unit has a Diesel generator. Watch my friend Patrick from Colonial Airstream in New Jersey do his product presentation of the Atlas. When he gets to the diesel generator, look at its size. Now look at the area where your LB tank and Generator is located. You will clearly see the engineering challenge here. There needs to be a balance between my "Wife" not yelling at me that she needs more space and the ease of using your generator on occasion. My rule here is my wife scares me.

Gary, The "RV Advocate.

Gary,

I am just thinking of changes that I will make down the line... still waiting for mine to arrive (end of Nov can't get here soon enough).

If I can add one more solar panel (if there is space on the roof for that) I will... 400 watts of solar is better than 300, right? Specially in situations where you do not get full sun coverage... plus I do want to increase battery capacity. So hopefully there is space and adding it will not be a major task.

I did not get a chance to stop by the local dealer this weekend like I was planning... I bought mine from TampaRV and they have another office close by in Winter Park... wanted to stop by Winter Park and look at one that they have and see if there was space. Very difficult to find 2018 photos of the roof layout.

I did look again at the video and saw the part where he shows the diesel generator... doubt we will be able to accommodate a diesel unit where the LP is currently... so the LP generator stays...

Diesel generator dimensions
30.2 x 17.3 x 18 in

LP generator dimensions
22 x 16.3 x 12.8 in

On the battery front - going to reach out to Lew (lewster here in the forum) for guidance (since he also spends time in Naples, FL it will be easy to drive over and get an estimate and budget in place)... have also been looking at a local company for sourcing the batteries and system (http://lithionicsbattery.com/portable-power/) but they do not sell to individuals... All this is planning on future modifications to improve and have less dependency on a generator... For battery placement I want to leverage the current battery trays, add the passenger side trays, and use the space under the floor (reinforcing that storage compartment to deal with the battery weight).

Once the battery/solar upgrade is done, I would still like to keep the LP tank and use that for cooking outside (since it is hidden nicely except for the filler setup...wished that was located higher) and for the water heater.

Have a induction stove replacing the gas one inside... an ARB cooler to expand food storage, and then we would be set...

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by sthrngary

...
I will give you one example that not even the Winnebago National Sales Trainer nor an Airstream Retail Sales Consultant knew at last years Tampa RV Show. Although both brands look identical, they are NOT. The way they order their Sprinters from Mercedes-Benz are completely different. Airstream orders the unit in a consumer order giving a laundry list of safety options available starting with the STANDARD suspension. Winnebago orders the commercial version. Drive both one after the other and you will feel the difference immediately. Airstream literally checks every single safety option box. What this means is the safety items are Mercedes and if the break, Mercedes fixes it and has the parts. It also gives you things like: Heated Windshield, built in blind spot indicators, accident/brake avoidance systems, ATC, ECT. All Mercedes options and install by Mercedes...

I agree with you 100% that Airstream orders better equipped Mercedes Sprinters than Winnebago or any other B-van manufacturer. But I have no idea what you are talking about in difference between a "consumer order" and a "commercial version". Both are just Sprinter cargo vans with different options ordered by each company. Both are really commercial vehicles.

A few years ago I had lunch with a Mercedes USA Vice President and we discussed how the Airstream Sprinters arrive in USA. The Airstream Sprinter come direct from plant in Dusseldorf, Germany to Baltimore, MD harbor and from there are trucked directly to Airstream in Jackson Center, OH. I think Airstream can do it because the Interstate is a significant passenger van.

I'm not sure if Winnebago has the same arrangement with Mercedes, but they might as the ERA has similar passenger capacity.

This direct shipment is unique because all normal cargo Sprinters arriving in USA are first disassembled at their plant of origin into major assemblies and shipped to Charleston, SC in containers. They are reassembled at a Mercedes Vans facility in Ladson, SC and then shipped to dealers across the USA. This is due to the 25% "chicken tax" on all light trucks imported into USA since 1963.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax

I'm sure that was a factor in the Mercedes decision to build a new plant in Charleston big enough to build Sprinters and Metris vans right in the USA and avoid this disassembly madness. It should be building Sprinters in USA by end of next year, 2018. They are actively hiring for the plant now.
https://www.daimler.com/career/thats...page-5124.html

Since I was curious I looked up the VINs for a 2015 Winnebago ERA and Airstream Interstate for sale at RV Trader to compare options. I have a subscription to the Mercedes EPC (Electronic Parts Catalog) and can get a data card on any Mercedes vehicle if I have the VIN. I've attached a pdf copy of each data card, which lists all options and clearly shows each have a unique code for Airstream (PZ4) and Winnebago (PY4).

Bottom line - Airstream orders Sprinters that have more options that do cost more.

[Roadtech]

Originally Posted by sthrngary

My order was: 1) Airstream Interstate (Very Few Options leading to much more efficient productions/fit/finish.) 2) Winnebago Era (Two many options to keep initial price down. Some options like Alcoa wheels were not shown on material, glaring pour quality on things like the so called third bed. I liked the front TV function better then all the rest. Resale, average to below average.) 3) Road Trek (I really did not like the fit and finish. This is ONLY a matter of taste. Again, two many options to choice from. The Safety features were added but not Mercedes. The Suspension was really stiff especially on 4X4 version. It was much better on the rear air suspension models if you paid the price for this option.) 4) Pleasure Way (From start to finish I had a hard time with it's price compared to paying a little bit more with the above choices. The layout of the cabin had some positives for sure. Again, no Mercedes Benz installed safety items to keep the chassis cost lower, stiff suspension for the same reason. )

Hope that helps.

Gary, The "RV Advocate"

Gary, Did you look at Coach House Arriva B or their MB B+ motorhomes?

[rogerdog1]

Originally Posted by sthrngary

Yep, I totally get your logic. It is always best to order your new unit. It allows you to get exactly what you want. It also allows for a better financial deal from the dealer because they have NO "Floor Plan" expense.

I am a little confused why you would have to wait until May. This is a little excessive. I wrote post/blog on production/efficiency. It is based on the use of lots of standard features vs. every thing is an option. The RV industry is starting to take notice of this production approach as the Automobile industry did 20 years ago. Same, the RV industry in sales, service, price strategies, quality and communication is 20 years behind the Auto Industry.

Be well and stay healthy.

Gary T, The "RV Advocate"

I have asked maybe 50 people on the Leisure forum, and the lead time concensus is 8-10 months. I ordered it the end of August, so..... I think the reasons are due to high demand, and they don’t work 24/7 in their factory, so their production is limited. Thanks for your research efforts & info though.

[rogerdog1]

And did you compare the pictures of the new Airstream Atlas to the Leisure Van Murphy Bed? The resemblance is uncanny��

[Pahaska]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

I'm leery of anything with a fiberglass skin.

After many years of owning several fiberglass sailboats that weathered being in/on the water for 7 months and exposed to the winter elements for the remaining 5 months, I am a lot more satisfied that gel-coated fiberglass will take plenty of punishment and still look great. Three different manufacturers were involved.

I also had a Scamp that looked as good when I sold it as when I bought it with just an occasional (yearly) waxing.

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by Pahaska

After many years of owning several fiberglass sailboats that weathered being in/on the water for 7 months and exposed to the winter elements for the remaining 5 months, I am a lot more satisfied that gel-coated fiberglass will take plenty of punishment and still look great. Three different manufacturers were involved.

The boating industry uses THICK fiberglass hulls, and have spent decades working up the correct layup for the application. They aren't trying to make their hulls paper-thin to save weight, because on a sailboat, weight is ballast. On a motorhome, weight is something to be avoided, and thin skin is in.

[sthrngary]

Originally Posted by rogerdog1

And did you compare the pictures of the new Airstream Atlas to the Leisure Van Murphy Bed? The resemblance is uncanny��

The answer to your above question is NO. I don't like nor do I endorse the Atlas at this time. It needs time on the market to find out what is issue are plus have them resolved and I simply don't like fiberglass used in building the wall of any RV. To many things can go wrong if the converter is sloppy.

The Murphy Bed I am quite sure is exactly the SAME third party vendor. Just like the kitchen sinks are the same vendor on most Class "B" Sprinter Based RV's.

I loved your post.

Gary T. The RV "Advocate"

[sthrngary]

Originally Posted by RandyNH

Wait. What? No, no. Thor owns Jayco..

Jayco was acquired by Thor Industries in July 2016 for $576 million

And Jayco actually formed Entegra, they didn't purchase it and not leave it alone, although they did but another company and create Entegra from it, I doubt you were looking to buy a Travel Supreme at any point.

I got those mergers backwards, it was my fault completely. I was never looking to purchase a Travel Supreme (Company prior to Entegra) EVER. I guess, that is why they did not do will and was purchased. Jayco up to 12 months ago was doing a nice job of cleaning up the quality control, client advocacy issues, dealer relations especially in service/parts and imagine advertising to show the differences in Entegra and others. Then the General Manager shifts started to happen. Three GM's in less then 12 months. Huge loses like Tadd Jenkins and Chuck Lasley both been with Entegra/Travel Supreme for years. They both now work for one of the greatest RV dealers in the country; National Indoor RV Centers with run buy Mr. Brent Davis.

The new GM for Entegra came from Tiffin. However he used to work for Jayco and upon his departure the first time, well lets say his words were less then flattering. But he is back with a reputation of cost cutting.

Back to your point, I was wrong on who bought who, and I appreciate you pointing it out to me, Thank you.

Gary T. The "RV Advocate"

[sthrngary]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

I agree with you 100% that Airstream orders better equipped Mercedes Sprinters than Winnebago or any other B-van manufacturer. But I have no idea what you are talking about in difference between a "consumer order" and a "commercial version". Both are just Sprinter cargo vans with different options ordered by each company. Both are really commercial vehicles.

A few years ago I had lunch with a Mercedes USA Vice President and we discussed how the Airstream Sprinters arrive in USA. The Airstream Sprinter come direct from plant in Dusseldorf, Germany to Baltimore, MD harbor and from there are trucked directly to Airstream in Jackson Center, OH. I think Airstream can do it because the Interstate is a significant passenger van.

I'm not sure if Winnebago has the same arrangement with Mercedes, but they might as the ERA has similar passenger capacity.

This direct shipment is unique because all normal cargo Sprinters arriving in USA are first disassembled at their plant of origin into major assemblies and shipped to Charleston, SC in containers. They are reassembled at a Mercedes Vans facility in Ladson, SC and then shipped to dealers across the USA. This is due to the 25% "chicken tax" on all light trucks imported into USA since 1963.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax

I'm sure that was a factor in the Mercedes decision to build a new plant in Charleston big enough to build Sprinters and Metris vans right in the USA and avoid this disassembly madness. It should be building Sprinters in USA by end of next year, 2018. They are actively hiring for the plant now.
https://www.daimler.com/career/thats...page-5124.html

Since I was curious I looked up the VINs for a 2015 Winnebago ERA and Airstream Interstate for sale at RV Trader to compare options. I have a subscription to the Mercedes EPC (Electronic Parts Catalog) and can get a data card on any Mercedes vehicle if I have the VIN. I've attached a pdf copy of each data card, which lists all options and clearly shows each have a unique code for Airstream (PZ4) and Winnebago (PY4).

Bottom line - Airstream orders Sprinters that have more options that do cost more.

I am going to give your a video done by Steve Hartman, the regional Sales Director for the Airstream Corporation. It will be below. I want you to listen to one of his first statements about the Suspension in the AirStream Interstate. "What is included is the High Gravity Suspension Package. Which is the Premium Suspension Package from Mercedes-Benz."

YouTube Link: https://youtu.be/5oeX-3PqB64

My back ground with Mercedes-Benz is I actually did consulting work for them some time ago and worked with the Bernie Moreno Companies who owned at one time 15 roof tops, in four states and had three Mercedes-Benz with Sprinter dealerships in North Olmsted, Burlington, MS and Covington, KY. The Sprinter can be ordered to be a passenger van or a commercial van. When purchased as a passenger van, it can have the Premium Suspension system in it. When ordered as a commercial van, it has a non-premium suspension in it I am not sure if it is an option. As Steve continues to say, Airstream "Clecked all the boxes on the safety items". What he did not say was other have some of the same items but from a third party vender, one such vender is MobileEye. The reason why Airstream gets their Sprinters they way they do is they have a business partnership agreement with Mercedes-Benz. That is also the reason that when you buy a Airstream Interstate, if you are a member of the Mercedes-Benz Club you are also eligible for an additional discount provided by Mercedes-Benz.

The majority of Mercedes-Benz in the United States are commercial van's. Most other brands, you mention Winnebago can simply buy their chassis from a local dealer at fleet prices which are lower then a consumer could buy it for. Airstream is working directly with Mercedes-Benz.

Now, you and I have done lots of work here. What we are both trying to do is educate the consumers and not put any brands down. I hope everyone who reads this simply has some better questions they can ask, and a different way to evaluate any Class "B" Sprinter Body Conversion. If you do, then everyone on this forum have done their due diligence.

Thank you Boxter 1971, you did a GREAT job of responding to my post. Above and beyond the call of duty.

Gary T, "The RV Advocate"

[sthrngary]

Originally Posted by Roadtech

Gary, Did you look at Coach House Arriva B or their MB B+ motorhomes?

Short answer, no. So many brands, so many floor plans, so little time. I don't consider B+ at all because I want the structure of the entire outside being from one manufacturer. In this case Mercedes-Benz.

One day I will buy a Class "A" diesel pusher and I will have to change my requirement on this. I just done like Fiber Glass Houses.

What, I might not have to settle. I could buy a Prevost for $1,500,000.00 or more. But THAT IS SIMPLY NOT GOING TO HAPPEN LOL.

Gary T, The "RV Advocate"

[sthrngary]

Originally Posted by Pahaska

After many years of owning several fiberglass sailboats that weathered being in/on the water for 7 months and exposed to the winter elements for the remaining 5 months, I am a lot more satisfied that gel-coated fiberglass will take plenty of punishment and still look great. Three different manufacturers were involved.

I also had a Scamp that looked as good when I sold it as when I bought it with just an occasional (yearly) waxing.

Protagonist replied a few days ago on this very subject. He went into GREAT detail. He most likely has already replied to your post. Look for both replies.

Gary T, The "RV Advocate"

[Roadtech]

Originally Posted by sthrngary

Short answer, no. So many brands, so many floor plans, so little time. I don't consider B+ at all because I want the structure of the entire outside being from one manufacturer. In this case Mercedes-Benz.
Gary T, The "RV Advocate"

Gary: The Coach House Arriva is a Class B like the Interstate. It has a rear bath with a separate shower.

[Lotus54]

I’ve had quite a few fibreglass cars (Lotus) and found them to do quite well. Yes, they can get stress cracks as they age (depending on the construction) but all the ones I saw were very small, and the car decades old.
The best vintage one for that was the Elite (not the all ‘glass version). They used a patented ‘VARI’ system that made for very good, dense but light construction. It used a two-half type mold, the cloth would be laid in first (appropriate thicknesses) then the mold put together- resin injected with vacuum assit. More companies use that system or similar now.


BUT I would also want to see exactly how they are forming the fibreglass and the materials they use. Gel coat colour, paint or ???
(BTW, Lotus initially painted the molds, then did the cloth and resin. But were not happy with pain quality, so when back to traditional paint)

Mark

[73shark]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

The boating industry uses THICK fiberglass hulls, and have spent decades working up the correct layup for the application. They aren't trying to make their hulls paper-thin to save weight, because on a sailboat, weight is ballast. On a motorhome, weight is something to be avoided, and thin skin is in.

Originally Posted by Pahaska

After many years of owning several fiberglass sailboats that weathered being in/on the water for 7 months and exposed to the winter elements for the remaining 5 months, I am a lot more satisfied that gel-coated fiberglass will take plenty of punishment and still look great. Three different manufacturers were involved.

I also had a Scamp that looked as good when I sold it as when I bought it with just an occasional (yearly) waxing.

My '73 Corvette (original owner) has weathered the ravages of time well w/ only a couple of seam minor cracks which is a manufacturing problem, not a fiberglass one. They seemed to have fixed that problem about 20 years ago. Maybe switching to SMC had something to do w/ that.

But I agree that a "fiberglass" house would be a different animal w/ all the stresses put on it.

Originally Posted by Lotus54

I’ve had quite a few fibreglass cars (Lotus) and found them to do quite well. Yes, they can get stress cracks as they age (depending on the construction) but all the ones I saw were very small, and the car decades old.
The best vintage one for that was the Elite (not the all ‘glass version). They used a patented ‘VARI’ system that made for very good, dense but light construction. It used a two-half type mold, the cloth would be laid in first (appropriate thicknesses) then the mold put together- resin injected with vacuum assit. More companies use that system or similar now.


BUT I would also want to see exactly how they are forming the fibreglass and the materials they use. Gel coat colour, paint or ???
(BTW, Lotus initially painted the molds, then did the cloth and resin. But were not happy with pain quality, so when back to traditional paint)

Mark

[sthrngary]

Originally Posted by Roadtech

Gary: The Coach House Arriva is a Class B like the Interstate. It has a rear bath with a separate shower.

Roadtech:

I did take a look at the Arriva. Very few YouTube Video's and the longest one was a couple of years old. The bathroom is the selling point for sure. A new client has to make a decision, where they want their space. Bathroom, Bedroom, front cabin or Kitchen. This is a personal preference for sure.

A few things I liked for instance the locking cabinets and the outdoor viewing TV. Other things I did not like, examples could be many of the safety / accident avoidance features were 3 rd party. Also, the lack of storage in the house/ back of the coach.

I have to assume this companies has a dealer network to service the unit but can't really tell from what I watched. Also, the investment of this rig is much less then an airstream.

Either way I enjoyed learning about them so thank you for telling me about the brand.

Gary T, The "RV Advocate"