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Old 10-06-2014, 01:19 AM   #15
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In general, I would start by moving all the heavy stuff out of the storage compartment under the bed and either put it behind the axles or leave it at home.

We've been considering the possibility of switching to AGM batteries and putting them under the bed (closer to the axles) instead of on the tongue where they are today, though we've not gone there yet.
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Old 10-06-2014, 06:37 AM   #16
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Andrews remarks are some of the most logical and practical I have read on reducing tongue weight! Just don't over do it and reduce the weight too much. Jim
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Old 10-06-2014, 09:21 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenXair View Post
I recently got my 2014 International Signature 25FB ONYX weighed and the tongue was 1100 lbs.---
Quote:
---I did have it weighed at a CAT Scale. Unfortunately I didn't weigh the TV axles separately so I can't give you individual axel weights, but I can give you the GVW, unhitched 4960# & hitched 5440#. That's an added weight to the TV of 480#. Trailer weight 7,520#. The gross combined weight was 12,500#, well below the Armada's max of 14,700#.
The CAT scales numbers indicate a tongue weight of 480# PLUS whatever amount of load was transferred to the TT's axles by the WDH.
The load transfer to the TT's axles probably was less than 200# making the indicated TW probably less than 700#.

The first TW value of 1100# is inconsistent with whatever TW might be inferred from the scales data.
Can you post images of the CAT scales weight tickets? Perhaps seeing the tickets could help to explain the seemingly low TW value.

Ron
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Old 10-06-2014, 10:39 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by GenXair View Post

If my only option is to reduce the tongue load then how essential is it to have batteries on a trailer if I'm always plugged in? Has anyone tried it?

Thank you all for your input.

-Alvin
The batteries activate the trailer brakes if there is an accidental separation of the tow vehicle and trailer. You must have a battery in the trailer.
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Old 10-06-2014, 10:45 AM   #19
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Cat Scale tickets

Here's my CAT scale tickets. As I stated I didn't weigh the the individual axels of the TV not because I didn't want to but because I didn't know what I was doing. Next time I know how it should done.


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Old 10-06-2014, 10:51 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by GenXair View Post
To answer a few of your questions. I did have it weighed at a CAT Scale. Unfortunately I didn't weigh the TV axles separately so I can't give you individual axel weights, but I can give you the GVW, unhitched 4960# & hitched 5440#. That's an added weight to the TV of 480#. Trailer weight 7,520#. The gross combined weight was 12,500#, well below the Armada's max of 14,700#.

-Alvin
Based on the above, 480 lbs is approximately your trailer's tongue weight. I think you need to add a little weight to the front of the trailer so that the tongue weight is about 10% of the trailer gross weight.

If the total sum of tongue weight, hitch weight, and sway control weight does not exceed the rating of your TV hitch, all is well.

I think you are good to go!

add edit:
I did not see the CAT Scale result since it was posted while I was typing.
Did you have the jack down on the center platform to get that 1,100 lb tongue weight?
Please explain how the vehicles were positioned during each weigh.
add edit 2:
unless you pulled on the scale backward the top number is the tow vehicle (front platform) not the trailer
add edit 3:
If you ran the jack down and lifted weight off of the front trailer axle you loaded additional weight onto the jack. The trailer must be level while weighing. In this case, that 1,100 lbs is not the true tongue weight.
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Old 10-06-2014, 11:21 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by A W Warn View Post
480 lbs is approximately your trailer's tongue weight. I think you need to add a little weight to the front of the trailer so that the tongue weight is about 10% of the trailer gross weight.

If the total sum of tongue weight, hitch weight, and sway control weight does not exceed the rating of your hitch, all is well.

I think you are good to go!

add edit:
I did not see the CAT Scale result since it was posted while I was typing.
Did you have the jack down on the center platform to get that 1,100 lb tongue weight?
Please explain how the vehicles were positioned during each weigh.

From what I remember I unhitched and drove to the platform in front of me & the trailer jack was on the platform behind me, not sure if it was dead center, and the trailer axles were on the third platform.


add edit 2:
unless you pulled on the scale backward the top number is the tow vehicle (front platform) not the trailer
I might have.
That's the way it was explained to me when I picked up the tickets. It does make sense that it is the trailer when you add the tongue 1100# & trailer 6420# = 7520# which is close to the trailers GVWR 7300#.
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Old 10-06-2014, 03:42 PM   #22
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If you were to remove the two batteries from the battery box to the front bed area, say against the front bed frame how much weight do you expect to come off the tongue weight? My two Interstate Grp 27 weight about 53lbs. I think equivalent AGMs are about 65lbs each. I've weighed my 2008 Classic 25fb and its about 1100 lbs using my Sherline scale. Just wondering if its worth it. Tow vehicle is a 2010 Tundra double cab with the tow package.

Kelvin
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Old 10-06-2014, 09:51 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by GenXair View Post
Here's my CAT scale tickets. As I stated I didn't weigh the the individual axels of the TV not because I didn't want to but because I didn't know what I was doing. Next time I know how it should done.
The indicated tongue weight is not consistent with the changes in TV GVW.
It appears that some amount of weight was moved from one scale pad to another scale pad between the two weighings.

Do you recall where you were standing when the weighings were made?
Was there anyone else who might have moved from one pad to another?

Ron
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Old 10-06-2014, 10:16 PM   #24
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Maybe start over GenX. Do a search on Ron Gratz and his method of weighing. When you drive onto the CAT scales the front axle goes on the forward pad, the read axle goes on the center pad and the trailer on the back pad. As you pull onto the scales drive ahead and as you think you are on the front pad check your rear view side mirror to confirm that the back axle and trailer axles are on their respective pad. WD set the way you normally have it.

Best to do this in camping configuration. Wife, dogs, kids, stuff in the back of the tow vehicle with full tank of gas, trailer with full propane, full water and little in the grey and black tanks.

I jump out of the truck, high five the call button and immediately jump back into the truck with the door open. Tell them that it is a first weigh, private vehicle and wait until they say they are done and to come in. Go in and pay the first weigh ticket. Now comes the fun.

Go back for the first re-weigh. Take the torsion off of the WD system so it is loose. High five the call button and get another weight. Drive off the scales and go pay.

Disconnect the trailer and weigh just the truck. By now the wife, kids and dogs are ready to go home or kill ya. High five the button, get quickly back in the truck and drive off an pay when they are done.

Now if you have a friendly CAT scale operator and they are slow I go in and talk with them before I start this dance. I tell them I would like to do 3 - 4 weights without moving from the scale. I give them my credit card. Now I pull on, and in the case of a ProPride I set it for maybe 5 inches, get a weight. Jump out and move the jacks to 6 inches. Get another weight. Do it again at 7 inches and the fourth time I run the WD down to the loose position. So 4 weights in maybe 10 minutes.

Lots of Back and forth. Key is to get back into the truck after you high five the squawk box. Or at least stand next to the drivers door. Consistency.

Drive off and drop the trailer and do one last weighing with the tow vehicle.

Now go pay and collect your 5-7 tickets. Keep notes of the sequence and label the tickets before you forget.

With a ProPride/Hensley and cooperation of the CAT operator this can be done quickly. With other hitch types might be more difficult but you get the idea.

CAT as you found out charges $10 for the first weigh and $2 for anything subsequent within 24 hours at the same scale.

And here's Ron's calculations in an excel file that you can crunch all of the numbers. This is for my Sierra 2500 and an FC 25 rear bed.

1_Cat Calc Sierra 2500 7-23-14.xlsx
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Old 10-07-2014, 06:21 AM   #25
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I believe there is a breakaway switch one can buy that has its own battery pack? No trailer battery needed. Or am I dreaming a dreaming again? Jim
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Old 10-07-2014, 09:35 AM   #26
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Utility trailers have the setup you are talking about Jim. Small battery box usually mounted at the tongue kept charged while hooked up to the tow vehicle.
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Old 10-07-2014, 09:59 AM   #27
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Your hitch is probably good as is, but I would be worried about the rear axle weight. As others have pointed out, you need to weigh front and rear axles on separate scale platforms. Do this with and without the trailer (including WD applied) to get a realistic load estimate. Do it with all passengers and gear loaded. If you are over the rear axle limit (found on the driver's door plate) and you have some slack in the front, then try to apply more WD to the front if possible. If not, unload some of the vehicle load into the rear of the trailer (not people of course).

What you really want to avoid is a blowout or a busted axle in the rear of the TV.
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Old 10-07-2014, 10:41 AM   #28
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I see the Armada sports a 4300 lb RAWR which is plenty generous... and the FAWR is 3400, while the GVWR is somewhat less than the two combined. I'd still check it though. Since it has air leveling, it makes adjusting the WD a bit trickier. Measure hitch height at normal traveling load and auto leveling applied. Then adjust your hitch accordingly. Auto leveling has a tendency to cancel out WD to the front axle if hitch height is off (measured at deflated levels), as it raises the pivot point when it inflates. The net result is more weight on the rear than you would like to see. At least that has been my experience.
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