Airstream Suggestion Box

[Skater]

I've been sitting here trying to think of things that Airstream could have done better in ours, and I'm not coming up with much. Not that the trailer is perfect, of course, but the problems it has are more related to being 17 years old and on its third owner, rather than issues from Airstream directly. (Although I do wish the vinyl roof covering had worked out better...sigh. But even that feels like a failure of the material, rather than a failure on the installation job done by Airstream, since the backing seems to be separating from the vinyl.)

That said, I've seen some sloppy caulk jobs both in the trailer and on the B190 that appear to be factory; sloppy installations of things like the Fantastic Fan where the housing was cracked; and stuff like that. These aren't huge problems, but they are sources of potential issues later on. There was an extremely sloppy wiring job done on the B190's foglights (fuse was after the switch, so when the switch shorted, it connected the deep cycle battery to ground), but for all I know that could have been done by a dealer...I can't imagine Airstream would've planned it that way.

I will say, every time I wrap my power cord around the annoying metal frame (it's a mid-90s trailer), I think to myself, "This is not one of Airstream's better designs." Doing it in the cold makes it even worse; as someone pointed out in another thread the cord isn't flexible in cold weather. The detachable cord really is the way to go, so I'm glad Airstream made that change.

[Fly at Night]

Friday, how cold - to cause that cracking??

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Fly at Night

Friday, how cold - to cause that cracking??

I can't answer that, but from reading posts from the past few years, the sheet vinyl starts to develop humps when the temp goes below 0˚ F. The coldest I've seen it here is around -15˚, but it can get much colder in other parts of Colorado, other Rocky mountains states and Canada. Last winter was warmer than usual and it didn't go below zero often, but we had humps in the middle of the floor and under the table—these seem to be worse each year and it is possible the vinyl develops stressed areas that get worse each year.

I believe the metal body contracts faster than the vinyl and pushes at the vinyl. As the vinyl is stapled at the edges and then, more importantly, locked in place by the cabinets and partitions, it has to go somewhere, and that somewhere is upward causing the humps, and in Friday's case, can crack.*

$7,000 to replace the sheet vinyl is an absurd price. I suppose it means removing everything from the interior and putting down more sheet vinyl and then placing cabinets and partitions on top of the flooring. The same thing will happen again. If they use the same quality sheet vinyl the factory used in ours, it is the cheapest available. I installed planks and left spaces around cabinets and partitions, then hid them with quarter round or other trim. I used spar urethane on the subfloor (2 coats) to seal the top. The cost in materials was less than $300.

This suggestion has been made by me before (and by others on other threads): It is best to have any flooring installed with spaces at walls and cabinets to allow for expansion/contraction.

Gene

*I wonder if the plywood subfloor is stressed upward or downward by contraction by the body? Is there an expansion/contraction space there?

[Fly at Night]

Gene, the FaN has endured many days and nights at freezing or below w/o any interior heat. The linoleum is still smooth as glass. It can get very cold in the Quesnel area. Was wondering what the cracking point was for Friday's trailer.

I agree - $7,000 seems a bit steep. I hope Friday will elaborate; if the dealer removed all the interior fittings, I can see how it would add up in terms of labour cost.

I wonder how a replacement cork floor would hold up w/o removal of interior fittings (and was installed by the kind of flooring person who does houses vs. RVs?)

[danlehosky]

I haven't seen the quality or grain of the plywood floor in my trailer, but when the vinyl fails or I get sick of it I may stain, seal and polyurethane the floor.

I would throw down a couple of small area rugs and call it good. Has anybody tried this? As I look at all of the negative outcomes of covering this wood floor this may be a good option. Just sayin......

Dan

[Gene]

Originally Posted by danlehosky

I haven't seen the quality or grain of the plywood floor in my trailer, but when the vinyl fails or I get sick of it I may stain, seal and polyurethane the floor.

I would throw down a couple of small area rugs and call it good. Has anybody tried this?

Dan

Dan, the quality of the top surface of the plywood is not stain grade. It also has bolts exposed without wood plugs and they are not sunk enough to accept plugs. They would collect dirt. I suppose Airstream could use plywood with a stain grade surface. Or you could use 1/4" plywood on top and use a waterproof glue that works through temp extremes and use that as a floor. But I think the glue might fail at the edges of the subfloor and without removing the subfloor, you couldn't really make it waterproof—then you could use something like Z-flashing.

Yes, some people have put throw rugs down on the bare subfloor. One posted it may not be really fancy, but is a lot more fancy than a tent.

I suppose Airstream could offer in their entry trailers a subfloor with a stain grade surface finished with spar urethane. The labor may be more than other options. The grain would run crosswise and that usually makes narrow spaces like hallways look chopped up.

There may be something to these ideas that can make a good suggestion, but I am not imaginative to come up with it.

Gene

[Janet H]

I'd love to see model that is specifically designed for boondocking and LESS dependent on batteries (and solar cells and generators). One of the hurdles would be components sourced from other places. Todays fridges draw a little current (even on gas). Forced air furnaces use fans; water pumps use electric pumps, etc.

Remember the old hand pressurized water tanks? While they had problems, having something like this as a back up available would be lovely. I can't tell you how many times I've been boondocking and the batteries have given out after a few days. I can cook on gas, light my trailer with candles, etc, but when the water pump won't work, I'm done.

[Gene]

Janet, good idea.

Maybe a boondocking option or version would be a good idea.

Batteries are a problem that many of us solve in a couple of ways—bigger ones or solar.

Airstream installs Series 24 batteries, the smallest deep cycle battery. The battery boxes are too small for upgrades and need modifications. At the least, a big box would be a great help—big enough for golf cart batteries. And Series 27 batteries, at the least, as the OEM batteries; best would be golf cart. AGM's are, I am told, better for solar, so that's another possibility.

How about a small, quiet, propane fired, onboard generator for the boondocking version?

And a 3 stage charger in the converter would save a lot of batteries from being cooked.

The connections for battery cables and shore power in ours are located at the most difficult area under the bed to reach in a small compartment. If I ever have to work on that, I will assuredly be putting a curse on the factory.

When we are boondocking, we and many others find the grey tank fills too fast and the black tank would only fill in a cholera epidemic. We solve some of that by dumping dish water in the toilet, but that isn't any fun. Make the grey tank bigger and the black tank a bit smaller. Direct grey water from the bathroom sink into the black tank.

Gene

[dstalzer]

I would like to see better rubber gaskets on the outside hatch doors. With my Airstream, I could see daylight around two of the hatches I could get to from inside. To solve this I added a layer of gasket material used to weather strip doors and windows. This has not been complete satisfactory, but it helps make them somewhat tighter.

Dennis

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Originally Posted by dstalzer

I would like to see better rubber gaskets on the outside hatch doors. With my Airstream, I could see daylight around two of the hatches I could get to from inside. To solve this I added a layer of gasket material used to weather strip doors and windows. This has not been complete satisfactory, but it helps make them somewhat tighter.

Dennis

Hi, Dennis. This is how I cured my leaky / breezy storage compartment door. I ran two srtips of "D" shaped weather seal around the outer edge of the door. It now has a tight fit and no more air leaks under my bed.

[dkottum]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

. . . Direct grey water from the bathroom sink into the black tank.

Gene

Gene, both our 2007 Safari and new Flying Cloud have this feature. Are you sure you don't?

doug k

[dkottum]

Originally Posted by danlehosky

I haven't seen the quality or grain of the plywood floor in my trailer, but when the vinyl fails or I get sick of it I may stain, seal and polyurethane the floor.

I would throw down a couple of small area rugs and call it good. Has anybody tried this? As I look at all of the negative outcomes of covering this wood floor this may be a good option. Just sayin......

Dan

Dan, we bought some sturdy, stiff rugs with finished edges at Target to coordinate with interior colors, then trimmed them to fit around the cabinets and partitions. Look really good, protects vinyl, easy to remove and shake, vacuum, or wash.

doug k

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Originally Posted by dkottum

Gene, both our 2007 Safari and new Flying Cloud have this feature. Are you sure you don't?

doug k

Hi, I don't think my bathroom sink drains into my black tank even though it would be closer and easier to do. I can't find any proof or plumbing diagrams for my trailer. So how can I know?

[Friday]

Originally Posted by Fly at Night

Friday, how cold - to cause that cracking??

Something in the -40 range but I don't know exactly when it failed. It was also a very rapid temperature drop.... 30 degrees in 12 hours or so.

I am in the middle of replacing it with a vinyl/fibreglass interlock product that they guarantee to -40 with a lifetime warranty for non commercial use and 10 year for commercial. Looks nice, but will add about 200lbs to th weight of my trailer. I estimate the old vinyl weighed 5lbs... It is that crappy...

[Fly at Night]

Originally Posted by Fly at Night

I just had a thought: I wonder how the airplane manufacturers affix things to the roof like the antennae and entertainment satellite? I know it is all put on after the fuselage is completed. The high-altitude stress and weather put upon a fuselage is extreme. If it works for a Boeing-737, it sure would work on an Airstream. Have you ever seen a leaky jet? I'm going to ask my friend when he recovers from his last trip. He's a pilot extraordinaire and an all-around nice guy. If he doesn't know the answer, he'll make an effort to find out.

Airstream was modelled after an airplane. But airplane manufacturers are always improving the design and technology. My friend was recently explaining the new engines - what is coming out in the next few years will put the last decade of engine design into the dark ages. Perhaps Airstream could embrace some of this enthusiasm?

Well, I asked the flying friend as per above. He said he didn't really know how they attached and sealed those things to the roof - "the days of knowing how to build the damn thing in order to fly it are over. Too many accidents from pilots trying to trouble shoot things in the air instead of flying the airplane. I just have to manage the beast." But he thinks they do use lot of caulking and since it is rounded at the top, water runs off pretty well anyways. He then suggested we all encase our trailers in a giant "male contraceptive." So much for that.

We're back at square one - caulking and roof design.

Friday, forty below? Yikes! That is cold.

[Phoenix]

I worked on air-launched missiles back in the 60's; and in flight, the airflow is always in one direction (hopefully). So, overlapping seams are laid so the water flows over the seam, instead of down into it. Also, huge o-rings go around circumferential seams that are separated for maintenance; and threaded fasteners don't go all the way through the fuselage like the rivets on Airstreams.

Some missiles are pressurized with inert gas to make them waterproof. In fact, we had one returned for salvage that was mounted on an aircraft that rolled off a carrier deck into several thousand feet of water. It was recovered after a month underwater, and we opened it up to salvage the electronics. The insides were bone dry, and all electronics were functional.

So, leaks can be prevented. We would just need to purchase Airstreams on a "cost-plus" basis, which would probably drive the price up to a couple of million each. However, each would come with a solid gold toilet seat and commemorative gold hammer.

[dkottum]

Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS

Hi, I don't think my bathroom sink drains into my black tank even though it would be closer and easier to do. I can't find any proof or plumbing diagrams for my trailer. So how can I know?

With water supply/pump turned off, hold open the toilet flush valve and pour a pitcher of water into the bathroom sink. You should hear and see (with flashlight) it running into the black tank.


doug k

[dstalzer]

Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS

Hi, Dennis. This is how I cured my leaky / breezy storage compartment door. I ran two srtips of "D" shaped weather seal around the outer edge of the door. It now has a tight fit and no more air leaks under my bed.

Robert

Your fix looks like an even better than the way I did mine. I will surely give it a try.

Thanks

Dennis

[Gene]

I promised to get to insulation, but insulation is only part of a wall system to keep out water from outside, provide a vapor barrier, insulate, be strong, and allow water a place to escape. A trailer is harder to design than a house and weight restrictions make it even harder.

The wall designs I read about are vastly more complicated than they were only a decade or two ago. Siding is to keep the weather out, but behind it is a system to allow air to circulate and dry out wet areas—this can be done with a mesh or horizontal furring strips. Under that would be a vapor barrier (usually house wrap), then a wall sealed at all penetrations and seams. Inside is insulation. The best systems generally use foam board (there are a lot of different types of varying efficiencies). All places where air can get through are sealed with caulk or spray foam. Then the inner wall. At the foundation, spray foam is used to seal the space between the wall and the foundation. Flashing is used to direct water outward. Area around windows and doors use complex flashing and stick on plastic. Windows use low-e glass, thermopane, and the frames are built to reduce heat or cooling loss. These houses are so tight an air exchanger is necessary to introduce air into the house that is cooled or heated in the air exchanger. Humidity needs to be reduced to prevent water vapor getting into the walls from inside. Any items overlapped vertically would usually have at least a 6" overlap and some adhesive to seal the overlap. To eliminate thermal breaks, stud walls have been redesigned to reduce the number of them and various items are used between the studs and inner or exterior walls to reduce heat movement.

Airstream should consult with someone who understands modern construction techniques to see what it can adapt. The house example uses three walls—siding is not structural. It is isolated from from the inner and outer structural walls. The vapor barrier is often on exterior side.

Some of this can be easily adapted. Pads of something that insulates can be used between the ribs and outer skin to reduce thermal gain or loss. It is time to dump fiberglass (I note Airstream is using a better quality insulation now) and go to foam and spray foam sealing at the edges. Z-flashing at the bottom of the wall and around the windows can direct water outside and through weep holes where appropriate. I am unsure whether a vapor barrier is needed or on which side of the wall it would go—a well sealed outer skin may be all the vapor barrier possible, but the condensation that probably develops on the inner side of the exterior skin may require a vapor barrier next to it and a way to wick water downward.

Airstream tried thermopane decades ago and it didn't work well. Technology has advanced and other RV companies use them successfully. It time to go with these.

Insulating the belly pan, sealing it, and making it easier to remove need to be integrating it with a wall system also need to be modernized.

The main considerations are keeping water out of the walls, directing where it goes and drying condensation, and insulating effectively. Airstream walls are designed as houses were designed half a century or more ago. Those houses leaked, were drafty, developed mold and rot, used excessive heating and cooling. Sound familiar?

Gene

[AWCHIEF]

Aircraft manufacturers use rivets and a handy dandy little device called Zeus Fasteners to allow easy and secure access to the innards. The Zeus Fasteners would work and look perfect on an Airstream. They easily handle Mach 3 plus speed, so should have no problem with average Airstream towing speeds.