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Old 01-23-2015, 04:28 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by jcl View Post
Due to the additional refining, I would estimate the reduced energy content of ULSD at 1% or so. That could result in reduced mileage, but nothing like 4 mpg. The cetane number can be different, and that can have an effect, but again it is minimal. Personally, I would try a different fuel supplier if I saw that much difference.

I am no refining expert by any stretch, but I was told (during hydrogen fuel cell training) that refiners just introduce hydrogen to the fuel (gas or diesel) which combines with the sulfur molecules to produce hydrogen sulfide, which is easily removed at that point. I don't know if that qualifies as "additional refining", but I don't think it involves further "cooking", if that's what you mean by refining.

BTW, the fuel cell training was about the extra hydrogen, not used for fossil fuel conditioning, would offset for hydrogen fuel use.
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Old 01-23-2015, 05:09 PM   #16
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OK, I looked it up....and I don't understand a lick of it, but it is gassed off:


"Process description[edit]
In an industrial hydrodesulfurization unit, such as in a refinery, the hydrodesulfurization reaction takes place in a fixed-bed reactor at elevated temperatures ranging from 300 to 400 °C and elevated pressures ranging from 30 to 130 atmospheres of absolute pressure, typically in the presence of a catalyst consisting of an alumina base impregnated with cobalt and molybdenum (usually called a CoMo catalyst). Occasionally, a combination of nickel and molybdenum (called NiMo) is used, in addition to the CoMo catalyst, for specific difficult-to-treat feed stocks, such as those containing a high level of chemically bound nitrogen.

The image below is a schematic depiction of the equipment and the process flow streams in a typical refinery HDS unit.


Schematic diagram of a typical Hydrodesulfurization (HDS) unit in a petroleum refinery
The liquid feed (at the bottom left in the diagram) is pumped up to the required elevated pressure and is joined by a stream of hydrogen-rich recycle gas. The resulting liquid-gas mixture is preheated by flowing through a heat exchanger. The preheated feed then flows through a fired heater where the feed mixture is totally vaporized and heated to the required elevated temperature before entering the reactor and flowing through a fixed-bed of catalyst where the hydrodesulfurization reaction takes place.

The hot reaction products are partially cooled by flowing through the heat exchanger where the reactor feed was preheated and then flows through a water-cooled heat exchanger before it flows through the pressure controller (PC) and undergoes a pressure reduction down to about 3 to 5 atmospheres. The resulting mixture of liquid and gas enters the gas separator vessel at about 35 °C and 3 to 5 atmospheres of absolute pressure.

Most of the hydrogen-rich gas from the gas separator vessel is recycle gas, which is routed through an amine contactor for removal of the reaction product H
2S that it contains. The H
2S-free hydrogen-rich gas is then recycled back for reuse in the reactor section. Any excess gas from the gas separator vessel joins the sour gas from the stripping of the reaction product liquid.

The liquid from the gas separator vessel is routed through a reboiled stripper distillation tower. The bottoms product from the stripper is the final desulfurized liquid product from hydrodesulfurization unit.

The overhead sour gas from the stripper contains hydrogen, methane, ethane, hydrogen sulfide, propane, and, perhaps, some butane and heavier components. That sour gas is sent to the refinery's central gas processing plant for removal of the hydrogen sulfide in the refinery's main amine gas treating unit and through a series of distillation towers for recovery of propane, butane and pentane or heavier components. The residual hydrogen, methane, ethane, and some propane is used as refinery fuel gas. The hydrogen sulfide removed and recovered by the amine gas treating unit is subsequently converted to elemental sulfur in a Claus process unit or to sulfuric acid in a wet sulfuric acid process or in the conventional Contact Process.

Note that the above description assumes that the HDS unit feed contains no olefins. If the feed does contain olefins (for example, the feed is a naphtha derived from a refinery fluid catalytic cracker (FCC) unit), then the overhead gas from the HDS stripper may also contain some ethene, propene, butenes and pentenes, or heavier components.

It should also be noted that the amine solution to and from the recycle gas contactor comes from and is returned to the refinery's main amine gas treating unit."
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Old 01-23-2015, 05:32 PM   #17
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Lessons learned from the introduction of ULSD back in 2007. Key take aways: Check filters, don't add oil to the fuel, lubricity is reduced but has to meet established ASTM standards, so refiners add lubricants.


http://www.landlinemag.com/Magazine/...s-learned.aspx
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Old 01-23-2015, 05:37 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dznf0g View Post
I am no refining expert by any stretch, but I was told (during hydrogen fuel cell training) that refiners just introduce hydrogen to the fuel (gas or diesel) which combines with the sulfur molecules to produce hydrogen sulfide, which is easily removed at that point. I don't know if that qualifies as "additional refining", but I don't think it involves further "cooking", if that's what you mean by refining.
I think of refining as purification. The hydrogen is introduced in a reactor (I didn't know the temp, but also looked up that it is at 300-400 C), so that is cooking. It isn't fractional distillation.

Jeff
Also not a petroleum engineer
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Old 01-23-2015, 05:43 PM   #19
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Yeah, Jeff, I read that in the "stuff" in my post above. But it says the feed stock is already pre-heated. They don't say what temp it is at that point, but it looks like it it heated additionally. Also JCLs post indicates a .1 to .2 mpg dropoff for most users (big trucks?).
So on most of the old pickups that averaged, say 23mpg solo:
1% = .23 mpg
3% = .69 mpg
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Old 01-24-2015, 12:03 PM   #20
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All diesel fuel now made is the low sulphur, clean fuel, it is very good and it is clean.My big truck now has 1355000 miles and still on the original injectors.The old style fuel was dirty , would jell at 20 degrees, sulphur would cause leaky valves,not good. The 6.2 chev diesel is not a good engine for towing ,they're underpowered and mostly obsolete ....
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Old 01-24-2015, 05:29 PM   #21
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I used POWER SERVICE way back when with excellent results in my GM 6.2L.
It boosted the cetane number and lubed the injectors. Use it in my John Deere tractor that is a diesel. Good stuff.
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Old 01-24-2015, 05:57 PM   #22
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Having talked to several Cummins mechanics , "not the service writers"since this low sulfur stuff showed up, and they all agreed on the point that if your gonna work your engine at more than simply driving your truck around by itself you best add oil to your fuel or risk your valves and pumps. They all add oil to theirs.
I add a quart of 5w30 or something like it to approximately every 30 gallons of diesel that goes in our 03 5.9 Cummins. And also add close to the same mixture that goes into our farm tractor. So far so good
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Old 01-24-2015, 06:06 PM   #23
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Well, boys and girls, I'm no Einstein, my first name isn't Albert, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night; but I CAN figure fuel mileage: I pull into the same station I've used for years and put the little nozzle in the little hole and go till it goes 'clicks'. Every fill up to and including that time is-23.0 (+-1.0). From that fill-up on 19.0 (+-0.7). With none bio fuel maybe 1.0 mpg better. That station may of changed to bio-fuel at the same time, but I'm not sure about that.
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Old 01-24-2015, 06:25 PM   #24
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Everyone lost a little mpg. Additives are a help in that and hopefully in extending the life of fuel system components.

Clean diesel is the most important thing, though.
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Old 01-25-2015, 06:13 PM   #25
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I now tow my AS with a 2010 Chevy Silverado crew cab,short bed with a Duramax/Allison drive train. I previously had a 2002 Silverado extended cab with same drive train.Both were 4wd and had the same axle ratios. I have noticed about 5mpg decrease in mpg in the 2010 as compared with the 2002 not towing. When towing my 31' AS the milage is roughly the same on both trucks. I know the "10 is slightly heavier than the "02 but I wonder if the low sulfur fuel is the culprit?
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Old 01-25-2015, 06:45 PM   #26
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No, it's the particulate filter, mostly. It regenerates (using diesel fuel to heat it) about every tank and a half running solo.....more often while towing. Solo it reduces overall mileage about 1 mpg....more under load with trailer.
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Old 01-25-2015, 06:55 PM   #27
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MPG falls off on 2005 and later due to emissions and tuning. Very much so from 2008.

I made a 290-mile round trip a couple days ago and recorded 26-mpg. Consistent with plenty of other trips in this truck given truck spec, climate, terrain and driver motivation.

One has to make about a ten year jump to 2014 models to see this kind of mpg again due to now very impressive sophistication in emissions tuning.

Low sulfur fuel just takes an edge off. Not all trucks are sensitive to it. Most drivers not at all.
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Old 01-27-2015, 06:57 AM   #28
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Here is the GM official position relative to additives:

#03-06-04-017G: Information on Diesel Fuel Additives - (Feb 27, 2014)
Subject: Information on Diesel Fuel Additives

Models: 2014-2015 Chevrolet Cruze
2015 and Prior GM Light Duty and Medium Duty Trucks
Equipped with 2.0L Diesel Engine or 6.6L Duramax® Diesel Engine
RPO — LB7 (VIN 1), LBZ (VIN D), LGH (VIN L), LLY (VIN 2), LML (VIN 8), LMM (VIN 6) or LUZ (VIN Z)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This bulletin is being revised to remove old VIN and RPO information, remove the Isuzu Commercial Medium Duty Models and their engines, add Model Year 2014-2015 vehicles, add 2014-2015 Cruze RPO — LUZ and update the existing statement “must not contain alcohol or other water emulsifiers” to “must not contain any metal based additives, alcohol or other water emulsifiers”. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 03-06-04-017F.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Diesel Fuel Additives Are Not Required or Recommended  

The use of diesel fuel additives are not required or recommended for the Cruze 2.0L diesel engine or the 6.6L Duramax® Diesel engine under normal conditions. The filtering system is designed to block water and contaminants without the use of additives. However, some customers may desire to use fuel additives to improve the characteristics of available diesel fuels.

Water Emulsifiers and Demulsifiers 

If the customer desires to use a fuel additive, care must be taken in its selection. There are two common methods that fuel additives use to cope with water in the fuel.

•One method is through demulsification of water in the fuel. This method causes water particles to combine together to form larger particles, which drop out of suspension. This allows the fuel filter/water separator to separate the water from the fuel as it is designed to do.
•The other method of coping with water in the fuel is through emulsification. This method, often using alcohol as the emulsifier, keeps water particles suspended in the fuel. Emulsification of water in the fuel can allow water to get past the fuel filter/water separator, in most cases causing damage to other components of the fuel system.
Notice: Only alcohol free water demulsifiers should be used in General Motors diesel engines. GM Diesel Fuel Conditioner®, P/N♦88861009 (in Canada, P/N 88861038) is alcohol free and utilizes water demulsifiers to cope with water in the fuel. Other brands may be available in different areas. Be sure that any other brand that may be selected for use clearly states that they are alcohol free demulsifiers before using.

Common Diesel Fuel Concerns 

Fuel Waxing/Icing

Fuel distributors blend #1 and #2 diesel fuels for seasonal requirements in a particular region. No other blending of fuels is recommended. However, a customer may desire to use a winter fuel additive to prevent fuel waxing or icing during extreme cold snaps. If a winter fuel additive is to be used, it must not contain any metal based additives, alcohol or other water emulsifiers that may compromise the water removal effectiveness of the fuel filtering system.


Bacteria and Fungi Growth

Bacteria and fungi growth can occur in diesel fuel when there is water present, especially during warmer weather. The best prevention against bacteria and fungi growth is to use clean fuel that is free of water. There are diesel fuel biocides available which are designed to kill bacterial growth in the fuel system. However, the dead bacteria can still cause blockages throughout the fuel system. If bacterial growth is found in the fuel system, the proper method of removal is to flush the fuel system using the appropriate Service Manual procedures, replace the fuel filter element and refilling the tank with clean diesel fuel. If a customer desires to use a biocide after flushing the fuel system, it must not contain any metal based additives, alcohol or other water emulsifiers.


Low Cetane Number

The cetane number is one indicator of a diesel fuel's ability to ignite. There are many indicators of overall fuel quality such as cleanliness, specific gravity, volatility, viscosity, detergency, corrosion inhibiting abilities, and lubricity. Increasing the cetane number alone is not a fix for poor quality fuel. Additionally, increasing the cetane number beyond the engine's requirements will not increase performance. However, the cetane number of diesel fuel is not always consistent and some customers may desire to use a cetane improver to ensure full performance of their engine. If such an additive is to be used, it must not contain any metal based additives, alcohol or other water emulsifiers.


Poor Lubricity

The 2.0L diesel and the 6.6L Duramax® Diesel engines are designed to operate on today's low sulfur fuel without the use of additives. A fuel additive designed to increase lubricity is not a fix for poor quality or contaminated fuel, but some customers may desire to use a lubricity additive to aid in the longevity of their fuel system components. If such an additive is to be used, it must not contain any metal based additives, alcohol or other water emulsifiers.


Fuel Stablility

Fuel Stability and degradation may be a concern for diesel fuels, especially for diesel fuel containing biodiesel. Use of aftermarket stability additives to improve quality of a degraded fuel is not a fix and use of such aftermarket stability additives by customers is discouraged due to concerns of proper mixing and fuel compatibility. However some customers may desire to use a stability additive to increase the shelf life of their fuel. If such an additive is to be used, it must not contain any metal based additives, alcohol or other water emulsifiers.


Fuel Source Issue 

If a vehicle is properly maintained but has fuel contamination issues, consider obtaining fuel from a different source. Purchasing fuel from a high volume fuel retailer increases the chance that the fuel is fresh and of good quality.

Parts information 

Part Number
Description

88861009

(in Canada, 88861038)
Conditioner, Diesel Fuel 325♦ml (11♦oz)




Duramax® is a Registered Trademark of General Motors LLC (In the United States)

Duramax™ is a Trademark of General Motors LLC
GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information.

WE SUPPORT VOLUNTARY TECHNICIAN CERTIFICATION
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