Low sulfur diesel in older engine question

[NavyCorpsman]

I used POWER SERVICE way back when with excellent results in my GM 6.2L.
It boosted the cetane number and lubed the injectors. Use it in my John Deere tractor that is a diesel. Good stuff.

[dannydimitt]

Having talked to several Cummins mechanics , "not the service writers"since this low sulfur stuff showed up, and they all agreed on the point that if your gonna work your engine at more than simply driving your truck around by itself you best add oil to your fuel or risk your valves and pumps. They all add oil to theirs.
I add a quart of 5w30 or something like it to approximately every 30 gallons of diesel that goes in our 03 5.9 Cummins. And also add close to the same mixture that goes into our farm tractor. So far so good

[choctawmel]

Well, boys and girls, I'm no Einstein, my first name isn't Albert, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night; but I CAN figure fuel mileage: I pull into the same station I've used for years and put the little nozzle in the little hole and go till it goes 'clicks'. Every fill up to and including that time is-23.0 (+-1.0). From that fill-up on 19.0 (+-0.7). With none bio fuel maybe 1.0 mpg better. That station may of changed to bio-fuel at the same time, but I'm not sure about that.

[slowmover]

Everyone lost a little mpg. Additives are a help in that and hopefully in extending the life of fuel system components.

Clean diesel is the most important thing, though.

[Air4563]

I now tow my AS with a 2010 Chevy Silverado crew cab,short bed with a Duramax/Allison drive train. I previously had a 2002 Silverado extended cab with same drive train.Both were 4wd and had the same axle ratios. I have noticed about 5mpg decrease in mpg in the 2010 as compared with the 2002 not towing. When towing my 31' AS the milage is roughly the same on both trucks. I know the "10 is slightly heavier than the "02 but I wonder if the low sulfur fuel is the culprit?

[dznf0g]

No, it's the particulate filter, mostly. It regenerates (using diesel fuel to heat it) about every tank and a half running solo.....more often while towing. Solo it reduces overall mileage about 1 mpg....more under load with trailer.

[slowmover]

MPG falls off on 2005 and later due to emissions and tuning. Very much so from 2008.

I made a 290-mile round trip a couple days ago and recorded 26-mpg. Consistent with plenty of other trips in this truck given truck spec, climate, terrain and driver motivation.

One has to make about a ten year jump to 2014 models to see this kind of mpg again due to now very impressive sophistication in emissions tuning.

Low sulfur fuel just takes an edge off. Not all trucks are sensitive to it. Most drivers not at all.

[dznf0g]

Here is the GM official position relative to additives:

#03-06-04-017G: Information on Diesel Fuel Additives - (Feb 27, 2014)
Subject: Information on Diesel Fuel Additives

Models: 2014-2015 Chevrolet Cruze
2015 and Prior GM Light Duty and Medium Duty Trucks
Equipped with 2.0L Diesel Engine or 6.6L Duramax® Diesel Engine
RPO — LB7 (VIN 1), LBZ (VIN D), LGH (VIN L), LLY (VIN 2), LML (VIN 8), LMM (VIN 6) or LUZ (VIN Z)

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This bulletin is being revised to remove old VIN and RPO information, remove the Isuzu Commercial Medium Duty Models and their engines, add Model Year 2014-2015 vehicles, add 2014-2015 Cruze RPO — LUZ and update the existing statement “must not contain alcohol or other water emulsifiers” to “must not contain any metal based additives, alcohol or other water emulsifiers”. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 03-06-04-017F.


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Diesel Fuel Additives Are Not Required or Recommended  

The use of diesel fuel additives are not required or recommended for the Cruze 2.0L diesel engine or the 6.6L Duramax® Diesel engine under normal conditions. The filtering system is designed to block water and contaminants without the use of additives. However, some customers may desire to use fuel additives to improve the characteristics of available diesel fuels.

Water Emulsifiers and Demulsifiers 

If the customer desires to use a fuel additive, care must be taken in its selection. There are two common methods that fuel additives use to cope with water in the fuel.

•One method is through demulsification of water in the fuel. This method causes water particles to combine together to form larger particles, which drop out of suspension. This allows the fuel filter/water separator to separate the water from the fuel as it is designed to do.
•The other method of coping with water in the fuel is through emulsification. This method, often using alcohol as the emulsifier, keeps water particles suspended in the fuel. Emulsification of water in the fuel can allow water to get past the fuel filter/water separator, in most cases causing damage to other components of the fuel system.
Notice: Only alcohol free water demulsifiers should be used in General Motors diesel engines. GM Diesel Fuel Conditioner®, P/N♦88861009 (in Canada, P/N 88861038) is alcohol free and utilizes water demulsifiers to cope with water in the fuel. Other brands may be available in different areas. Be sure that any other brand that may be selected for use clearly states that they are alcohol free demulsifiers before using.

Common Diesel Fuel Concerns 

Fuel Waxing/Icing

Fuel distributors blend #1 and #2 diesel fuels for seasonal requirements in a particular region. No other blending of fuels is recommended. However, a customer may desire to use a winter fuel additive to prevent fuel waxing or icing during extreme cold snaps. If a winter fuel additive is to be used, it must not contain any metal based additives, alcohol or other water emulsifiers that may compromise the water removal effectiveness of the fuel filtering system.


Bacteria and Fungi Growth

Bacteria and fungi growth can occur in diesel fuel when there is water present, especially during warmer weather. The best prevention against bacteria and fungi growth is to use clean fuel that is free of water. There are diesel fuel biocides available which are designed to kill bacterial growth in the fuel system. However, the dead bacteria can still cause blockages throughout the fuel system. If bacterial growth is found in the fuel system, the proper method of removal is to flush the fuel system using the appropriate Service Manual procedures, replace the fuel filter element and refilling the tank with clean diesel fuel. If a customer desires to use a biocide after flushing the fuel system, it must not contain any metal based additives, alcohol or other water emulsifiers.


Low Cetane Number

The cetane number is one indicator of a diesel fuel's ability to ignite. There are many indicators of overall fuel quality such as cleanliness, specific gravity, volatility, viscosity, detergency, corrosion inhibiting abilities, and lubricity. Increasing the cetane number alone is not a fix for poor quality fuel. Additionally, increasing the cetane number beyond the engine's requirements will not increase performance. However, the cetane number of diesel fuel is not always consistent and some customers may desire to use a cetane improver to ensure full performance of their engine. If such an additive is to be used, it must not contain any metal based additives, alcohol or other water emulsifiers.


Poor Lubricity

The 2.0L diesel and the 6.6L Duramax® Diesel engines are designed to operate on today's low sulfur fuel without the use of additives. A fuel additive designed to increase lubricity is not a fix for poor quality or contaminated fuel, but some customers may desire to use a lubricity additive to aid in the longevity of their fuel system components. If such an additive is to be used, it must not contain any metal based additives, alcohol or other water emulsifiers.


Fuel Stablility

Fuel Stability and degradation may be a concern for diesel fuels, especially for diesel fuel containing biodiesel. Use of aftermarket stability additives to improve quality of a degraded fuel is not a fix and use of such aftermarket stability additives by customers is discouraged due to concerns of proper mixing and fuel compatibility. However some customers may desire to use a stability additive to increase the shelf life of their fuel. If such an additive is to be used, it must not contain any metal based additives, alcohol or other water emulsifiers.


Fuel Source Issue 

If a vehicle is properly maintained but has fuel contamination issues, consider obtaining fuel from a different source. Purchasing fuel from a high volume fuel retailer increases the chance that the fuel is fresh and of good quality.

Parts information 

Part Number
Description

88861009

(in Canada, 88861038)
Conditioner, Diesel Fuel 325♦ml (11♦oz)


 

Duramax® is a Registered Trademark of General Motors LLC (In the United States)

Duramax™ is a Trademark of General Motors LLC
GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information.

WE SUPPORT VOLUNTARY TECHNICIAN CERTIFICATION

[crispyboy]

Originally Posted by choctawmel

I lost 4mpg in my Dodge Cummins when the ULSD came out

I owned a 97 VW Jetta TDI when the ULSD came out. Highway mileage went from 48 to 45 mpg.........
I used Stanadyne which helped with the smoke and maybe 1 mpg and the engine ran much quieter.

I now use Stanadyne in my 09 Dodge and the injectors are much quieter, especially with a cold engine. It did nothing for the mileage.

[tjdonahoe]

That stanadyne additive was designed to lubricate the old style injector fuel pumps,which is no longer used on the newer engines and that got rid of a lot of problems..my 2099 3406 E model cat has never seen any additives, fuel filters are changed at 40,000 miles and the injectors are original with 1.355 million miles, so that shows you don't need additives , just buy clean fuel, where they sell a lot of it...

[Kota]

Don't confuse DEF with fuel additives.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uQHvi2Lgnac

[Kota]

Don't confuse DEF with fuel additives.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uQHvi2Lgnac

There have been a lot of developments in engine design and fuels. Lead was removed because of its toxicity and incompatibility with catalytic converters. That "lead" to problems in older engines that didn't have hardened valves and seats. Lead additives and substitutes had to be added.

Suffer and phosphorus were removed from oil because of there detrimental effects on catalytic converters. Older engines, especially those with solid lifters, had issues requiring additives or oiled that still offered the properties required.

Ethanol raises hell in older engines that aren't designed for it. Especially engines that set a lot with the ethanol component of the fuel absorbing water. Boat and small engines hate the stuff. Mostly from corrosion of components in the carburetor and degradation of fuel system components.

So when it comes to ultra low sulfur diesel I can understand how it might cause accelerated wear in older fuel pumps not designed for it. I've seen a lot of theories, claims, and witches brews about adding crap to fuel. I personally wouldn't add anything not recommended by the engine manufacturer. I use anti gelling additives in cold weather, anti microbial additives for long sits, and a lubricating aid.

[tjdonahoe]

The lead was added to gasoline in about 1937? To raise the octane, Jimmy Doolittle was one of the permoters of this for the airplane engines. I will agree with you about all these hocus locus miracle additives......

[Ag&Au]

I have used this in my 2003 Dodge almost since new. I can't prove it is the reason, but I have had none of the injection system problems that some have reported since the introduction of ULSD.

http://www.amazon.com/Stanadyne-Perf.../dp/B000M5NNQ6

Ken

[cwf]

Since they 'got the lead out', the moss is returning to Louisiana... check out our Avatar..

[westernjeep401]

Originally Posted by 3 Dog Nite

Has anyone had any problems using the newer low sulpher deisel in their older vehicles? I know the tractor trailers have to add DEF (deisel exhaust fuel) additive in the new trucks. I'm thinking of purchasing a 1985 with a GM 6.2L engine. Are there any additives required to use the new fuel in an older vehicles. What problems have been caused by this phenomenom?

1. No, not even in the legacy pump-line-injector and unit injector systems.

2. DEF is an additive that is intended to mitigate certain emissions in accordance with EPA requirements in new-build engines and motor vehicles. It is a liquid that has its own filler, reservoir, and plumbing, the substance being introduced post-combustion cycle.

3. The 6.2/6.5 Detroits were fine engines in their day, representing a benchmark of diesel technology before the advent of electronic controls.

4. Stanadyne, the manufacturer of the DB series rotary pumps found on the above engine, makes an additive that is well-regarded in the diesel service industry.

My own experience mirrors what most-all OE vendors state, which is, "good, clean fuel" works fine on it's own. The first pictures show an older diesel with direct injection and a pump-line-injector setup using a CAV rotary pump (similar to the Stanadyne Roosa). The second is a Mercedes OM-617 with indirect injection and a P-series Bosch pump setup. Both were down for routine repowering and showed no unusual cylinder, injector, or pump wear, having used contemporary road diesel for at least 8 years.

[NavyCorpsman]

TEL was added to reduce valve seat wear and to cushion the effects of detonation. It all has to with Volumetric Efficiency which in a non supercharged engine will increase with engine speed. The Static compression ratio will be added to by the net positive effect of increased efficiency of cylinder filling at a given flow rate. Something like that anyways.
Isooctane is used to change the behavior of the fuel as it is burned. If it burns too fast, the flame fronts in the cylinder strike each other and create "Knock". The Octane number of the fuel is its ability to resist detonation in a given situation. Todays engines have knock sensors that will retard ignition to minimize that harmful condition.
Same thing for the use of Cetane in diesel engines. With Compression ratios from 18:1 up into the 22:1+ range, fuel quality will have an effect on performance and longevity. There is a point of diminishing returns with the use of additive Isooctane, and Cetane as well.
When I lived in San Diego, I would occasionally go to the airport and buy 106-116 Octane number AVGAS and mix it 50/50 for my KZ750. Shaaazamm!, It was a little harder to start but it ran like a rocketship.

Most fuel "Octane boosters" are merely varying percentages of methanol. If you want a high performance additive that will not corrode your fuel system (Gas engine), use Toluene. It is pure hydrocarbon, and is what is blended with the fuel at the blender to raise the Octane Number from 87 to 93/94 at the pump. Next time your pumping the good stuff, you will be able to smell it.
As far as additives go I use the Lucas fuel conditioner ( a light mineral oil base) and along with a K&N filter, and RoyalPurple HPS oil, my milage in the Yukon has gone from 15 to 18.2. It goes in the JD tractor too.
When I had my 83 Suburban with the 6.2, (that was a nice rig) I used PowerService
fuel additive. I never had a problem with the Roosamaster DB2 pump, and the injectors were always clean as a whistle. It didn't like the climb from ElCentro Ca over the mountains to San Diego but on the open road I got 18mpg loaded up to 25mpg with a tailwind through New Mexico.
With that said, I believe we are being "Greened" into non existence. The new vehicles are nice but just don't hold up over time. Oil filters are now 1/3 the size for why? Our fuels contain higher levels of solvents that harm the plastics and rubber. Lightweight aluminum is a reactive metal and cant tolerate continuous exposure to the Alcohols that are being used.
The FDA says all the pills are good. The EPA, well, you tell me.
Lucas in the gas and diesel
Power service in the diesel
I am thankful that we can still get fuel at the pump.