Airstream Forums

Airstream Forums (https://www.airforums.com/forums/)
-   General Repair Forum (https://www.airforums.com/forums/f44/)
-   -   Insulation idea (https://www.airforums.com/forums/f44/insulation-idea-85434.html)

submariner 01-25-2012 06:40 AM

couple questions here :

- using the reflectix foil: do you guys just glue it to the skin ? if so, what do you use for it?
do i have to use anything else with the foil , ie Styrofoam ?

- if using the spray in ceramic stuff, can i use it just by itself ,without the extra foam spray in ?

thanks

FC7039 01-25-2012 10:33 AM

I did not glue in the foil or rigid foam board but wedged it in and used foil tape where needed and between sheets and to secure it to the ribs.

My initial test with HSC-1500 is to apply it to half a piece of aluminum (bottom) and place a light (60 watt bulb, kind of light that clamps on, has a cone reflector, bulb not touching aluminum, but about 1 inch away) on top. After about an hour I could place my hand on the bottom. It was very warm but I could hold it there.

I moved the light to the top of the non coated side and after about an hour, I could not hold my hand to the aluminum as it was too hot.

My plan is to make up 1' x 1' test squares with both inner and outer skin and a rib and test the various insulation methods placing the test panels out in the sun and using a laser thermometer.

Is it worth the effort to remove the interior? I do know yet. That is why I want to test.

I live in Texas. Last summer I would say the trailer was unusable. But I only had a 13500 BTU portable AC. I do know that when I placed my hand on the ceiling skin, it was very hot and especially where the ribs were, so hot that holding your hand on the skin was almost painful. I have to do something.

So, my plans are, first, intrigued by Darkspeed, to test and maybe use HSC. Escpcially as a thermal barrier on the ribs.

Second, rationalize that I live in Texas, buy a rooftop AC on my 1950 FC, though it will look out of place, I have no choice if I want to use the trailer.

worldinchaos 01-25-2012 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FC7039 (Post 1098665)
I did not glue in the foil or rigid foam board but wedged it in and used foil tape where needed and between sheets and to secure it to the ribs.

My initial test with HSC-1500 is to apply it to half a piece of aluminum (bottom) and place a light (60 watt bulb, kind of light that clamps on, has a cone reflector, bulb not touching aluminum, but about 1 inch away) on top. After about an hour I could place my hand on the bottom. It was very warm but I could hold it there.

I moved the light to the top of the non coated side and after about an hour, I could not hold my hand to the aluminum as it was too hot.

My plan is to make up 1' x 1' test squares with both inner and outer skin and a rib and test the various insulation methods placing the test panels out in the sun and using a laser thermometer.

Is it worth the effort to remove the interior? I do know yet. That is why I want to test.

I live in Texas. Last summer I would say the trailer was unusable. But I only had a 13500 BTU portable AC. I do know that when I placed my hand on the ceiling skin, it was very hot and especially where the ribs were, so hot that holding your hand on the skin was almost painful. I have to do something.

So, my plans are, first, intrigued by Darkspeed, to test and maybe use HSC. Escpcially as a thermal barrier on the ribs.

Second, rationalize that I live in Texas, buy a rooftop AC on my 1950 FC, though it will look out of place, I have no choice if I want to use the trailer.

Third, move to Southern California and hang out with the cool crowd of Streamers here, and go to the coast during the heat waves. :cool:

goshawks00 01-25-2012 11:04 AM

Ceramic ionsulation has been around for quite a while,and we've used it in our hotrods severals times. Do a search on it at google, it's amazing how cheaply you can make it.
Just sayin'

wheelerimage 01-25-2012 11:34 AM

I'm so glad I found this thread. I read about HSC on Dark's thread but forgot what it was and where I saw it.

I found out how important the insulation issue is when I went to Arizona on my first trip after I restored my 65 GT. When it was 90 outside, it was 110 inside. I didn't think I needed AC because I live in MT.

Now, I plan to insulate my 55 Safari and was wondering what is best. I was thinking Prodex, but I like Darkspeeds solution.

I like the layering idea with HSC on the aluminum, then polyurethane foam. My question is: I have heard that polyurethane foam will turn to powder due to road vibration and rubbing. Is that true? If so, could I fix that by attaching a reflective foil to the foam after it dries? Kinda like a sammich with HSC, then foam, then reflective foil. Thanks!

Wabbiteer 01-26-2012 09:37 AM

Wedged-in-foam likely will sag at various points during the sheets' careers - the foam will relax and the aluminum will oxidize and gravity will tug it out of position. Semi-monocoque construction is rigid but often will oscillate, even if a very low frequency, ringing like a dull slow-motion aluminum bell and that would really be the potion-of-motion for wedged in sheets of foam. I'm not saying don't wedge it in but do provide some tack-welds of adhesive to keep everything in place seven to ten years out.

Alumina and Silica fiber ceramic insulation requires a 'firing' up to its working temperature range to drive off organic binders that keep the products supple and installable without damaging the felt or boards - and many product lines have very little strength of their own when it comes to long term service... Oh and most turns into paper-towel consistency when wet.

I went with the hollow-ceramic bead type paint-on insulation as a outer shell interior side insulation booster, just waiting for warm weather here.

wheelerimage 01-26-2012 10:20 AM

Thanks Wabbiteer. I was thinking of more like a spray on Polyurethane foam like Corebond. I've seen people who use it in Airstreams. They say its works great. I just wondered if there were any pitfalls long term. Of course, I would seal interior rivets & seams with Trempro 635 first.

is HSC 1500 the Alumina and Silica fiber insulation that you are talking about in your 2nd paragraph?

What is the brand of the hollow ceramic bead type paint on insulation that you used?

Wabbiteer 01-26-2012 03:35 PM

I'm tempted by the new foams too. Sprayfoamdirect.com is especially tempting.

HSC-1500 (by way of 3rd-hand observation) is about like marshmallow cream that one paints on that may best be applied with a painting texture-mix applicator gun.

I went with a dry bead that is added to the paint of your choice, hytechsales.com is where I got it - I did splurge for some of their pre-mixed aluminum flake radiant barrier paint to do the interior roof-ceiling with.

I may yet bite the bullet and get the HSC-1500, then spray-in-foam.

goshawks00 01-26-2012 03:57 PM

This is a good read... it's a hotrod site, and the ceramic bead use is of much interest in keeping our hotrods cool with lots of engine heat passing buy. Also good places to buy what you need.

alternative to Lizard Skin
clipped from Google - 1/2012

Hopefully this link will take you there ..if you know how:D

Barry

FC7039 02-02-2012 03:08 PM

This is my current understanding of radiant barriers and Airstreams. They may be wrong. I got this all by reading the internet so it must be trueJ

Please feel free to educate me.

Sun light that hits the Earth and your trailer is mostly not in the infrared (IR) spectrum. Any radiation from the sun only heats the outer skin of the trailer and does not heat anything past the outer skin. White reflects sun better than aluminum so a white surface heats slower than an aluminum surface. Brighter and shinier improve this reflectivity. Shinier (less surface area) also improves emissivity of radiation (read further).

I do not know what properties reflect or absord IR radiation. I have read the silver and aluminum or good at it. We see these as shiny, but I have no idea if light reflectiivty has has any effect as IR is not visible. What about a material refelcts IR?

The heated outer skin gives off heat by the three heat methods of conductivity, convection, and radiation.

The outer skin conducts heat to the ribs that it touches. This is a very efficient method and transfers the heat well through the ribs to the inner skin. It also conducts heat through any insulation touching the outer skin. Usually insulation material is poor at conducting heat and is inefficient at transferring the heat from the outer skin to the inner skin.

The outer skin also heats any air in between the skins via convection. The air in turn, conducts heat to the inner skin. This also is not very efficient, but with a limited amount of air to absorb the outer skin heat, the air via convection heats to as close to the out skin as possible and conducts its heat to the inner skin.

The outer skin heated by the sun radiates IR waves to the next object in its path, either insulation or a radiant barrier (the inner skin is a radiant barrier), (all things are radiant barriers, some better than others, most being poor at it, aluminum and silver, being good at it, white paint is poor at it). Materials good at reflecting radiation are poor at emitting radiation. Aluminum does not emit radiation that well so its radiant heating of the inner skin is inefficient.

My conclusions are:
1. A thin radiant barrier as insulation probably has little effect. I believe that the air heated by convection will conduct through the barrier (highly conductive) and heat the air on the other side which will in turn heat the inner skin.
2. Polishing the inner skin (facing out) would act as a radiant barrier.
3. Venting between the skins would probably have the greatest impact as this would reduce the convection which is probably the greatest
transfer of heat.
4. If you cannot vent the space, then add insulation that retards air movement and convection, but does not touch the inner skin, as it is a radiant barrier, being aluminum. I think though it would only reflect the radiant heat of the insulation. It may be better to just fill the whole space.
5. Polishing the inner skin facing in would greatly reduce the radiant heat from the skin to a person or object.
6. Any method to retard the conductivity between the ribs and skins without reducing the monocoque construction (I believe a less than rigid rivet of the skins would introduce too much movement and lead to eventual failure). I plan to test ceramic infused paint (HSC-1500)

I plan to test these hypothesis’ here shortly. Please feel free to add and ask and suggest other methods to test.

aluminitus 02-03-2012 10:09 AM

I purchased some HSC (apparently HSC-1500 is no longer made, but HSC has better thermal properties) this morning and will post on my airforum blog how it works out.

Wild-Air 10-20-2012 12:33 AM

Does anyone know what white coating is used by AS on late model trailers? I have a 2012 FC and it has a white coating of some sort on the roof panels. Wishing to improve on the factory's effort (funny, right?), I'm thinking painting Super Therm on the roof would be a big help.

DryFly 10-20-2012 01:06 AM

Wild-Air, for what it's worth, I've used a product called HyperSeal on the roof of my 73 Argosy, after having used it on the roofs of 2 of my commercial buildings. The stuff is exactly what I wanted for the roof of my TT - it's very elastic, adheres well, is really tough and durable and absolutly water proof. I don't think it adds any insulation value, and the manufacturer doesn't claim so, but it's REALLY white and adds a tremendous amout of reflective value

FC7039 10-20-2012 03:02 PM

The white is to reflect light, not really to insulate. White reflects better than silver

Wild-Air 10-21-2012 12:22 AM

I read last night where a company named Hy-tech Thermal has a powder it developed in conjunction with the space program which can be added to any paint to provide excellent insulating qualities. To me it seems much like what Super Therm is. Hy-tech's claim:

When mixed into paint the painted surface dries to a tightly packed layer of the hard, hollow "microspheres", ( Hy-Tech's exclusive CVM, ceramic vacuum matrix technology.) The tightly packed film reflects and dissipates heat by minimizing the path for the transfer of heat. The ceramics are able to reflect, refract and block heat radiation (loss or gain) and dissipate heat rapidly preventing heat transfer through the coating with as much as 90% of solar infrared rays and 85% of ultra violet-rays being radiated back into the atmosphere.


It sounds interesting.

Insulating Paint Additive Makes Paint Insulate

Wild-Air 10-21-2012 12:35 AM

If one were to remove the inner sheets, remove Airstream's 1970-technoloy fiberglass, paint the inside ribs with HSC paint, paint Super Therm or similar product on the inside of the outer walls, add the two-sided aluminum bubble wrap as an insulation layer, add aluminum foil (shiny side pointing out) to the inside of the inner sheets, then re-rivit everything, would that be a big improvement? [that was a mouthful]

FC7039 10-21-2012 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild-Air (Post 1218131)
If one were to remove the inner sheets, remove Airstream's 1970-technoloy fiberglass, paint the inside ribs with HSC paint, paint Super Therm or similar product on the inside of the outer walls, add the two-sided aluminum bubble wrap as an insulation layer, add aluminum foil (shiny side pointing out) to the inside of the inner sheets, then re-rivit everything, would that be a big improvement? [that was a mouthful]

I do not think it would. What little you gain from the insulating paint, is defeated by paint being a better radiant of heat than aluminum.

I did some experiments. See this thread.

Getahobby 10-21-2012 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DryFly (Post 1217742)
Wild-Air, for what it's worth, I've used a product called HyperSeal on the roof of my 73 Argosy, after having used it on the roofs of 2 of my commercial buildings. The stuff is exactly what I wanted for the roof of my TT - it's very elastic, adheres well, is really tough and durable and absolutly water proof. I don't think it adds any insulation value, and the manufacturer doesn't claim so, but it's REALLY white and adds a tremendous amout of reflective value

How long hs that stuff been on? Any chalky streaking on the sides of the trailer?

DryFly 10-21-2012 11:09 AM

Getahobby, Ive had it on one of the commercial building's roofs about 3 years now. No chalking or deterioration, and I don't expect any. I applied it to another building's roof last year and had to do a minor repair this year which required that I cut a small section of the roof out. I saved the piece so I could examine it later, and when I did I found the Hyperseal had adhered to the old torch down and I couldn't get it off. It had formed a membrane about 5 mil thick, very elastic. When I cleaned it with a rag and water, it was as bright as when I first applied it.
I put it on my Argosy only a month ago. I'll update my comments next fall, but based on my experience using it on a building's flat roof, I don't expect any issues. This is very high quality stuff. A little spendy, but in this case I believe you get what you pay for.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:19 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.