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flygrrl 12-05-2011 09:57 PM

Insulation idea
 
While sitting in the bathtub pondering the pending shell-off restoration on our baby, I was thinking about all the threads on insulation, what to use, hmmmm. Reflexix (sp?) is not so available up in the frozen north across the St.Lawrence River, also pricey. I am not very keen on fiberglass-while cheaper-it does not deal with water (leaks) so well and neither does Roxul, it tends to matt up into a mushy slimy mess.:sad: Spray-on polyurethane is not a smart option to me. OK, here is my idea, why not use polyester batting? I mean the heavier gauge type used in the seat pads of outdoor furniture (not the foam and not the squishy quilt batting), it is quite robust, if my seat pads are any indication. It is also; impervious to water, doesn't hold water, extremely light, doesn't mold or mildew, and doesn't off-gas VOC's. It also would not anneal itself to your skins or compress into a mass at the bottom as fiberglass does. You would still have to provide air channels at the outer skin, but you could use neoprene gasket for that, easy!
Any comments, thoughts, or ideas? Experts, please weigh in. Has anyone tried this, or will I be charting a new course in a galaxy far, far away?:alien:

BigAl 12-05-2011 10:21 PM

check out the thread about making a tall trailer(I think "shell off transformation").
They mention something like HFC 1500 It is a ceramic type paint that is about R-19 for a layer about 10mils thick.
Amazing.
If you have the inner skin off I would certainly give that serious consideration.
Al

Becky B. 12-05-2011 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigAl (Post 1080149)
check out the thread about making a tall trailer(I think "shell off transformation").
They mention something like HFC 1500 It is a ceramic type paint that is about R-19 for a layer about 10mils thick.
Amazing.
If you have the inner skin off I would certainly give that serious consideration.
Al

I think this is the thread you're talking about:

Shell off headroom epiphany

BIGED52 12-06-2011 12:28 AM

I don't think polyester batting would have any real R value. So although it might be light weight and very easy to put in place I do not think it would work for your insulation needs. also if you have ever left outside cushions in the rain you would realize that the filling in these cushions do get very wet and hold the moisture until it drains away and then it still requires time to dry thoroughly. The paint on ceramic with a R-19 rating would be a real bonus weight wize and maybe would eliminate a need for other forms of in wall insulation. Well worth checking out the cost to paint the inner sides of the exterior skins and eliminating the need for fiberglass in between the inner and outer skins. Ed

Frank's Trailer Works 12-06-2011 06:56 AM

you would have all the issues as you would with fiberglass. I think it would hold water even worse due to it's density. Reflectix, Podex, Rollflex, any of those are the way to go. You can always get on one of those shopping busses and take a trip over to the States to stock up.

HowieE 12-06-2011 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigAl (Post 1080149)
They mention something like HFC 1500 It is a ceramic type paint that is about R-19 for a layer about 10mils thick.
Amazing.

Can you supply a link to this type of covering. My search found nothing.

When it comes to insulation a coating would be the way to go as it offers COMPLETE coverage. The problem with most insulation are the voids, gaps, and seams. Any of these will almost completely eliminate the value of the material in that area.

One of the biggest faults with the construction of an Airstream is the fact that the inner and outer skins are connected with aluminum, a great thermal conduit. If when reinstalling the inner skin you could install a thermal brake on the face of the frames you would gain a lot. If yo question this just look at how the snow melts off the trailer while the heater is on inside.

flygrrl 12-07-2011 05:30 PM

Thanks, guys
 
Firstly, HowieE looooove the mailbox, BigEd, is that quote from the Tom Waits song "Burma Shave"? Thought I would ask first before digging out the album and checking the lyrics. I am a Tom Waits addict as well as an Aluminati.
Now back to topic...
I had already studiously read through the threads suggested (yes, I was previously one of the 'lurkers') and they are great ideas, much info to consider. Perhaps using neoprene strips as a thermal break at the ribs would be a good idea, sill gasket would work as long as you really socked the rivets down well for that great 'monocoque' feel. Although I would be concerned about anything that could wear out if the rivets loosened, hmmm. As far as insulation goes, the type of polyester batting I have in my cushions does not hold water at all, it drains right out and you can feel it heating up the tushie when you sit on it in the winter. It is about an inch and a half thick and a lot more robust than regular batting, doesn't compress much but is still nice to sit on. I would think it has quite good R value because it is similar in density to Roxul, stiff yet full of spaces, but bounces back when you get up. Of course all this is just conjecture at this point since I can't start work on my baby yet but I like to keep a mental shopping list and am frequently in fabric stores that also cater to commercial clients so they have more options and unusual items.
Thanks again,
Leonie

Darkspeed 12-07-2011 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HowieE (Post 1080224)
Can you supply a link to this type of covering. My search found nothing.

When it comes to insulation a coating would be the way to go as it offers COMPLETE coverage. The problem with most insulation are the voids, gaps, and seams. Any of these will almost completely eliminate the value of the material in that area.

One of the biggest faults with the construction of an Airstream is the fact that the inner and outer skins are connected with aluminum, a great thermal conduit. If when reinstalling the inner skin you could install a thermal brake on the face of the frames you would gain a lot. If yo question this just look at how the snow melts off the trailer while the heater is on inside.


It is what I used - https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...4UlGi_eIwplzAQ

worldinchaos 12-07-2011 06:17 PM

As for your comment on prices, I looked heavily into that during my renovation because I was not so concerned with achieving a whole lot of effective R-value. I live in Southern California, the trailer is not going more than 500 miles on trips for the next few years, and our winter camping is to deserts with 30 to 50 degree ranges that we are used to doing in tents---so anything is an upgrade.

The cost of Reflectix purchased in 2'x50' rolls at Lowe's or online and 1/2" to 3/4" foam board for spacers was the cheapest per sq. ft. unless you use the absolute minimum R-value insulation (like R-8 or R-11) which is 3" battens and you have to tear in half anyway, reducing the R value to <5. This is even including the many rolls of foil tape and adhesive used for the install

If you want effective in a cold region, I would really consider Dark's magic ceramic.
If you want cheap, I would go Reflectix.
If you want fast install, I would go fiberglass.

However, everyone always seems to think that fiberglass is cheaper, so they are either tearing it into really small pieces or maybe prices are highly regionally-biased.

Darkspeed 12-07-2011 06:28 PM

The ceramic stuff is magic... Mmmm warm..

Darkspeed 12-07-2011 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HowieE (Post 1080224)
Can you supply a link to this type of covering. My search found nothing.

When it comes to insulation a coating would be the way to go as it offers COMPLETE coverage. The problem with most insulation are the voids, gaps, and seams. Any of these will almost completely eliminate the value of the material in that area.

One of the biggest faults with the construction of an Airstream is the fact that the inner and outer skins are connected with aluminum, a great thermal conduit. If when reinstalling the inner skin you could install a thermal brake on the face of the frames you would gain a lot. If yo question this just look at how the snow melts off the trailer while the heater is on inside.

Painting a thick layer on the face of the ribs did create quite the thermal break.

BIGED52 12-07-2011 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flygrrl (Post 1080784)
Firstly, HowieE looooove the mailbox, BigEd, is that quote from the Tom Waits song "Burma Shave"? Thought I would ask first before digging out the album and checking the lyrics. I am a Tom Waits addict as well as an Aluminati.
Now back to topic...
I had already studiously read through the threads suggested (yes, I was previously one of the 'lurkers') and they are great ideas, much info to consider. Perhaps using neoprene strips as a thermal break at the ribs would be a good idea, sill gasket would work as long as you really socked the rivets down well for that great 'monocoque' feel. Although I would be concerned about anything that could wear out if the rivets loosened, hmmm. As far as insulation goes, the type of polyester batting I have in my cushions does not hold water at all, it drains right out and you can feel it heating up the tushie when you sit on it in the winter. It is about an inch and a half thick and a lot more robust than regular batting, doesn't compress much but is still nice to sit on. I would think it has quite good R value because it is similar in density to Roxul, stiff yet full of spaces, but bounces back when you get up. Of course all this is just conjecture at this point since I can't start work on my baby yet but I like to keep a mental shopping list and am frequently in fabric stores that also cater to commercial clients so they have more options and unusual items.
Thanks again,
Leonie

Leonie, I never read or heard that before.... I just tried different verses & words until I had something that sounded like it could have been a Burma Shave sign rhyme/ad. Ed

tonyp 12-12-2011 01:15 PM

I might have missed it in this thread or Darkspeed's, but what is the cost of the ceramic paint? As how much for my 23' Flying Cloud. Thanks

danimal327 12-12-2011 02:41 PM

Darkspeed,
Did you use any other type of insulation with this application?

Darkspeed 12-12-2011 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danimal327
Darkspeed,
Did you use any other type of insulation with this application?

I used 10gallons @45$ per gallon on a 31' with a little left over.

I sprayed 1.75" of spray foam on top of the ceramic for added insulation.

aluminitus 01-24-2012 07:20 PM

Who did you buy the ceramic insulation from? I tried getting in touch with the company that makes it but they never answered. Did you order it online? Thanks!

FC7039 01-24-2012 07:27 PM

Hsc 1500
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aluminitus (Post 1098432)
Who did you buy the ceramic insulation from? I tried getting in touch with the company that makes it but they never answered. Did you order it online? Thanks!

From a PM from Dark

paste starts here

This is the contact info of where I buy from

-----------------------------------
The spread rate for Super Therm is 90sq/ft/ga
The spread rate for HSC1000 is 60 sq/ft/ga

Price Super Therm $75.00/ga., HSC1000 $42.00/ga

Thanks
Dennis Watters
Superior Coatings International
805-200-8814
-----------------------------

Ask Veggibullet I showed him the coated 200w bulb last night. I don't have any left to do you a sample.


End paste

Also

Hello,

I am the Distributor for HSC-1500 in your area. Please provide project information, and amount required.

My contact information is set forth below. Please feel free to contact me.



Hal McElroy
National Distributor & Authorized Representative
10 Kensington Ct.
Conroe, Texas 77304
Mobile: 832.683.1123
Fax: 832.415.9448
E-mail: hmcelroy@superiorcoatingsusa.com
www.spicoatings.com

FC7039 01-24-2012 07:34 PM

I got a sample of HSC and plan to do some tests. I am skeptica,l but after last summer I am prepared to remove my interior and apply the HSC if it works.
My current insulation is the bubble foil and hard foam (not sure the brands).
I do know that if I can at least get a thermal break on the ribs, that would provide a great improvements.

robwok 01-24-2012 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FC7039 (Post 1098441)
I got a sample of HSC and plan to do some tests. I am skeptica,l but after last summer I am prepared to remove my interior and apply the HSC if it works.
My current insulation is the bubble foil and hard foam (not sure the brands).
I do know that if I can at least get a thermal break on the ribs, that would provide a great improvements.

Did you put the bubble and foam in? Is it really worth the effort to remove the inside skin twice???

VeggieBullet 01-24-2012 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FC7039 (Post 1098441)
I got a sample of HSC and plan to do some tests. I am skeptica,l but after last summer I am prepared to remove my interior and apply the HSC if it works.
My current insulation is the bubble foil and hard foam (not sure the brands).
I do know that if I can at least get a thermal break on the ribs, that would provide a great improvements.

Hi guys
I will like to stand for the job that DarkSpeed has done.
that ceramic insulation is crazy good! I had been in the inside of that trailer at noon with Florida full sun and is awesome.
I also placed my hand on that 200W light bulb where it has a little dot of that ceramic and you can't feel anything.
All we can say is that you can afford it you won't regret!
Regards

submariner 01-25-2012 06:40 AM

couple questions here :

- using the reflectix foil: do you guys just glue it to the skin ? if so, what do you use for it?
do i have to use anything else with the foil , ie Styrofoam ?

- if using the spray in ceramic stuff, can i use it just by itself ,without the extra foam spray in ?

thanks

FC7039 01-25-2012 10:33 AM

I did not glue in the foil or rigid foam board but wedged it in and used foil tape where needed and between sheets and to secure it to the ribs.

My initial test with HSC-1500 is to apply it to half a piece of aluminum (bottom) and place a light (60 watt bulb, kind of light that clamps on, has a cone reflector, bulb not touching aluminum, but about 1 inch away) on top. After about an hour I could place my hand on the bottom. It was very warm but I could hold it there.

I moved the light to the top of the non coated side and after about an hour, I could not hold my hand to the aluminum as it was too hot.

My plan is to make up 1' x 1' test squares with both inner and outer skin and a rib and test the various insulation methods placing the test panels out in the sun and using a laser thermometer.

Is it worth the effort to remove the interior? I do know yet. That is why I want to test.

I live in Texas. Last summer I would say the trailer was unusable. But I only had a 13500 BTU portable AC. I do know that when I placed my hand on the ceiling skin, it was very hot and especially where the ribs were, so hot that holding your hand on the skin was almost painful. I have to do something.

So, my plans are, first, intrigued by Darkspeed, to test and maybe use HSC. Escpcially as a thermal barrier on the ribs.

Second, rationalize that I live in Texas, buy a rooftop AC on my 1950 FC, though it will look out of place, I have no choice if I want to use the trailer.

worldinchaos 01-25-2012 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FC7039 (Post 1098665)
I did not glue in the foil or rigid foam board but wedged it in and used foil tape where needed and between sheets and to secure it to the ribs.

My initial test with HSC-1500 is to apply it to half a piece of aluminum (bottom) and place a light (60 watt bulb, kind of light that clamps on, has a cone reflector, bulb not touching aluminum, but about 1 inch away) on top. After about an hour I could place my hand on the bottom. It was very warm but I could hold it there.

I moved the light to the top of the non coated side and after about an hour, I could not hold my hand to the aluminum as it was too hot.

My plan is to make up 1' x 1' test squares with both inner and outer skin and a rib and test the various insulation methods placing the test panels out in the sun and using a laser thermometer.

Is it worth the effort to remove the interior? I do know yet. That is why I want to test.

I live in Texas. Last summer I would say the trailer was unusable. But I only had a 13500 BTU portable AC. I do know that when I placed my hand on the ceiling skin, it was very hot and especially where the ribs were, so hot that holding your hand on the skin was almost painful. I have to do something.

So, my plans are, first, intrigued by Darkspeed, to test and maybe use HSC. Escpcially as a thermal barrier on the ribs.

Second, rationalize that I live in Texas, buy a rooftop AC on my 1950 FC, though it will look out of place, I have no choice if I want to use the trailer.

Third, move to Southern California and hang out with the cool crowd of Streamers here, and go to the coast during the heat waves. :cool:

goshawks00 01-25-2012 11:04 AM

Ceramic ionsulation has been around for quite a while,and we've used it in our hotrods severals times. Do a search on it at google, it's amazing how cheaply you can make it.
Just sayin'

wheelerimage 01-25-2012 11:34 AM

I'm so glad I found this thread. I read about HSC on Dark's thread but forgot what it was and where I saw it.

I found out how important the insulation issue is when I went to Arizona on my first trip after I restored my 65 GT. When it was 90 outside, it was 110 inside. I didn't think I needed AC because I live in MT.

Now, I plan to insulate my 55 Safari and was wondering what is best. I was thinking Prodex, but I like Darkspeeds solution.

I like the layering idea with HSC on the aluminum, then polyurethane foam. My question is: I have heard that polyurethane foam will turn to powder due to road vibration and rubbing. Is that true? If so, could I fix that by attaching a reflective foil to the foam after it dries? Kinda like a sammich with HSC, then foam, then reflective foil. Thanks!

Wabbiteer 01-26-2012 09:37 AM

Wedged-in-foam likely will sag at various points during the sheets' careers - the foam will relax and the aluminum will oxidize and gravity will tug it out of position. Semi-monocoque construction is rigid but often will oscillate, even if a very low frequency, ringing like a dull slow-motion aluminum bell and that would really be the potion-of-motion for wedged in sheets of foam. I'm not saying don't wedge it in but do provide some tack-welds of adhesive to keep everything in place seven to ten years out.

Alumina and Silica fiber ceramic insulation requires a 'firing' up to its working temperature range to drive off organic binders that keep the products supple and installable without damaging the felt or boards - and many product lines have very little strength of their own when it comes to long term service... Oh and most turns into paper-towel consistency when wet.

I went with the hollow-ceramic bead type paint-on insulation as a outer shell interior side insulation booster, just waiting for warm weather here.

wheelerimage 01-26-2012 10:20 AM

Thanks Wabbiteer. I was thinking of more like a spray on Polyurethane foam like Corebond. I've seen people who use it in Airstreams. They say its works great. I just wondered if there were any pitfalls long term. Of course, I would seal interior rivets & seams with Trempro 635 first.

is HSC 1500 the Alumina and Silica fiber insulation that you are talking about in your 2nd paragraph?

What is the brand of the hollow ceramic bead type paint on insulation that you used?

Wabbiteer 01-26-2012 03:35 PM

I'm tempted by the new foams too. Sprayfoamdirect.com is especially tempting.

HSC-1500 (by way of 3rd-hand observation) is about like marshmallow cream that one paints on that may best be applied with a painting texture-mix applicator gun.

I went with a dry bead that is added to the paint of your choice, hytechsales.com is where I got it - I did splurge for some of their pre-mixed aluminum flake radiant barrier paint to do the interior roof-ceiling with.

I may yet bite the bullet and get the HSC-1500, then spray-in-foam.

goshawks00 01-26-2012 03:57 PM

This is a good read... it's a hotrod site, and the ceramic bead use is of much interest in keeping our hotrods cool with lots of engine heat passing buy. Also good places to buy what you need.

alternative to Lizard Skin
clipped from Google - 1/2012

Hopefully this link will take you there ..if you know how:D

Barry

FC7039 02-02-2012 03:08 PM

This is my current understanding of radiant barriers and Airstreams. They may be wrong. I got this all by reading the internet so it must be trueJ

Please feel free to educate me.

Sun light that hits the Earth and your trailer is mostly not in the infrared (IR) spectrum. Any radiation from the sun only heats the outer skin of the trailer and does not heat anything past the outer skin. White reflects sun better than aluminum so a white surface heats slower than an aluminum surface. Brighter and shinier improve this reflectivity. Shinier (less surface area) also improves emissivity of radiation (read further).

I do not know what properties reflect or absord IR radiation. I have read the silver and aluminum or good at it. We see these as shiny, but I have no idea if light reflectiivty has has any effect as IR is not visible. What about a material refelcts IR?

The heated outer skin gives off heat by the three heat methods of conductivity, convection, and radiation.

The outer skin conducts heat to the ribs that it touches. This is a very efficient method and transfers the heat well through the ribs to the inner skin. It also conducts heat through any insulation touching the outer skin. Usually insulation material is poor at conducting heat and is inefficient at transferring the heat from the outer skin to the inner skin.

The outer skin also heats any air in between the skins via convection. The air in turn, conducts heat to the inner skin. This also is not very efficient, but with a limited amount of air to absorb the outer skin heat, the air via convection heats to as close to the out skin as possible and conducts its heat to the inner skin.

The outer skin heated by the sun radiates IR waves to the next object in its path, either insulation or a radiant barrier (the inner skin is a radiant barrier), (all things are radiant barriers, some better than others, most being poor at it, aluminum and silver, being good at it, white paint is poor at it). Materials good at reflecting radiation are poor at emitting radiation. Aluminum does not emit radiation that well so its radiant heating of the inner skin is inefficient.

My conclusions are:
1. A thin radiant barrier as insulation probably has little effect. I believe that the air heated by convection will conduct through the barrier (highly conductive) and heat the air on the other side which will in turn heat the inner skin.
2. Polishing the inner skin (facing out) would act as a radiant barrier.
3. Venting between the skins would probably have the greatest impact as this would reduce the convection which is probably the greatest
transfer of heat.
4. If you cannot vent the space, then add insulation that retards air movement and convection, but does not touch the inner skin, as it is a radiant barrier, being aluminum. I think though it would only reflect the radiant heat of the insulation. It may be better to just fill the whole space.
5. Polishing the inner skin facing in would greatly reduce the radiant heat from the skin to a person or object.
6. Any method to retard the conductivity between the ribs and skins without reducing the monocoque construction (I believe a less than rigid rivet of the skins would introduce too much movement and lead to eventual failure). I plan to test ceramic infused paint (HSC-1500)

I plan to test these hypothesis’ here shortly. Please feel free to add and ask and suggest other methods to test.

aluminitus 02-03-2012 10:09 AM

I purchased some HSC (apparently HSC-1500 is no longer made, but HSC has better thermal properties) this morning and will post on my airforum blog how it works out.

Wild-Air 10-20-2012 12:33 AM

Does anyone know what white coating is used by AS on late model trailers? I have a 2012 FC and it has a white coating of some sort on the roof panels. Wishing to improve on the factory's effort (funny, right?), I'm thinking painting Super Therm on the roof would be a big help.

DryFly 10-20-2012 01:06 AM

Wild-Air, for what it's worth, I've used a product called HyperSeal on the roof of my 73 Argosy, after having used it on the roofs of 2 of my commercial buildings. The stuff is exactly what I wanted for the roof of my TT - it's very elastic, adheres well, is really tough and durable and absolutly water proof. I don't think it adds any insulation value, and the manufacturer doesn't claim so, but it's REALLY white and adds a tremendous amout of reflective value

FC7039 10-20-2012 03:02 PM

The white is to reflect light, not really to insulate. White reflects better than silver

Wild-Air 10-21-2012 12:22 AM

I read last night where a company named Hy-tech Thermal has a powder it developed in conjunction with the space program which can be added to any paint to provide excellent insulating qualities. To me it seems much like what Super Therm is. Hy-tech's claim:

When mixed into paint the painted surface dries to a tightly packed layer of the hard, hollow "microspheres", ( Hy-Tech's exclusive CVM, ceramic vacuum matrix technology.) The tightly packed film reflects and dissipates heat by minimizing the path for the transfer of heat. The ceramics are able to reflect, refract and block heat radiation (loss or gain) and dissipate heat rapidly preventing heat transfer through the coating with as much as 90% of solar infrared rays and 85% of ultra violet-rays being radiated back into the atmosphere.


It sounds interesting.

Insulating Paint Additive Makes Paint Insulate

Wild-Air 10-21-2012 12:35 AM

If one were to remove the inner sheets, remove Airstream's 1970-technoloy fiberglass, paint the inside ribs with HSC paint, paint Super Therm or similar product on the inside of the outer walls, add the two-sided aluminum bubble wrap as an insulation layer, add aluminum foil (shiny side pointing out) to the inside of the inner sheets, then re-rivit everything, would that be a big improvement? [that was a mouthful]

FC7039 10-21-2012 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild-Air (Post 1218131)
If one were to remove the inner sheets, remove Airstream's 1970-technoloy fiberglass, paint the inside ribs with HSC paint, paint Super Therm or similar product on the inside of the outer walls, add the two-sided aluminum bubble wrap as an insulation layer, add aluminum foil (shiny side pointing out) to the inside of the inner sheets, then re-rivit everything, would that be a big improvement? [that was a mouthful]

I do not think it would. What little you gain from the insulating paint, is defeated by paint being a better radiant of heat than aluminum.

I did some experiments. See this thread.

Getahobby 10-21-2012 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DryFly (Post 1217742)
Wild-Air, for what it's worth, I've used a product called HyperSeal on the roof of my 73 Argosy, after having used it on the roofs of 2 of my commercial buildings. The stuff is exactly what I wanted for the roof of my TT - it's very elastic, adheres well, is really tough and durable and absolutly water proof. I don't think it adds any insulation value, and the manufacturer doesn't claim so, but it's REALLY white and adds a tremendous amout of reflective value

How long hs that stuff been on? Any chalky streaking on the sides of the trailer?

DryFly 10-21-2012 11:09 AM

Getahobby, Ive had it on one of the commercial building's roofs about 3 years now. No chalking or deterioration, and I don't expect any. I applied it to another building's roof last year and had to do a minor repair this year which required that I cut a small section of the roof out. I saved the piece so I could examine it later, and when I did I found the Hyperseal had adhered to the old torch down and I couldn't get it off. It had formed a membrane about 5 mil thick, very elastic. When I cleaned it with a rag and water, it was as bright as when I first applied it.
I put it on my Argosy only a month ago. I'll update my comments next fall, but based on my experience using it on a building's flat roof, I don't expect any issues. This is very high quality stuff. A little spendy, but in this case I believe you get what you pay for.


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