V10 Vs Psd
While doing some research in preparation for buying a new Ford truck, I tried to do some cost comparisons between buying an F250 with a V10 (an extra $ 600.00) and the new Power Stroke Diesel (an extra five to six thousand dollars).
It seems to me that if I took the extra six thousand dollars saved from buying the V10 and invested in a CD, I would be better off.
Any comments? Any experience with the V10? Any experience with the Dodge V10? Any experience with Dodge automatic transmissions (always heard they were unreliable)?
Anxious to hear the thoughts of the wise and the seasoned ...
I think the new 2500 Dodge front end is just a rolling work of art ...
Also, any pros/cons about the Ford trailer tow mirrors will be appreciated.
I have a 2002 excursion with the V10 engine in it. I traded a Mercury mountaineer for it. My other vehicle is a Porsche C-4 convertible. My point here is that I was not used to a large vehicle nor was I used to towing anything other than a pop-up camper or a boat trailer. When I decided to get the excursion it was with the plan of obtaining an airstream which I have since gotten and it weighs 7700 pounds. I gave some thought to the diesel but rejected it due to the increased cost and the fact that I hate the smell of diesel exhaust.
I have been extremely pleased with the V10. Pulling my trailer is no chore at all. The mirrors are great and I don't even have to pull them all the way out. Mileage out on the road is 14 without a load and 10 to 11 with the trailer. I travel at about 70 to 75 miles an hour on the interstate if all conditions allow.
I have had the vehicle since June 2002 and have 23,000 miles on it with absolutely no problems. However, to be fair I would suggest you look at some of the Chevrolet products as well. They have gotten extremely good reviews in previous posts and polls.
I'm on my second Ford V10. I've had a 2000 F250 CrewCab 4x4 and now a 2003. I put 50,000 miles a year on a truck and a lot are towing. The only problems I had with the 2000 model was the automatic locking hubs are operated by vacuum and something went wrong and it did not want to engage in 4Lo. The 03 which I got in December is getting ready to turn over 11,000 miles and so far no trouble. The engine tows great and like the previous reply I get 13.5 mpg at 70-80 and when I towed my Overlander back from Lake City, Co week before last I got 11.5 towing at 65-70mph. I'm not sure what the weight of the 26' Overlander is but going up Slumgullion pass out of Lake City which starts out around 7,700 feet of elevation and tops out at 11,500 in a seven mile run, the truck held 35 mph in third and 45 in second with the pedal on the floor. Up Raton Pass it held 55mph in third.
I tried a Powerstroke Diesel in 97 and quickly went back to the 460 because the cost of the engine plus the 60.00 oil changes did not offeset the extra three to four miles to the gallon that the diesel saved. Plus the noise was a pain.
The V10 does perform differently than the 460. On paper it has more hp but in real world towing a V10 with 3.73 gears doesn't quite tow as well as a 460 with 4.10 gears. But, the newer body style trucks are also about 900 pounds heavier. I've been told the difference is that the V10 is a overhead cam engine and that they need to rev more to make their power.
Oh, the trailer tow mirrors are the best I've ever used.
I have to agree with bhsl8. We got our Excursion in July of 2000 to tow an SOB that our Expedition would not handle. I opted for the V10 because I could not justify the extra cost of the diesel based upon fuel costs. We took a 4300 mile trip to Yellowstone where we had around 11mpg. The Excursion did very well. I would usually cruise the interstates at 65 with cruise and overdrive. There was one hill that took us to 1st gear but it had some mean switchbacks.
I LOVE my PSD! They can have it when they pry it from my cold, dead hands.
But I deal in numbers as much as possible, and I cannot justify owning it economically. I paid whatever dealer invoice was for the PSD over the V-10... maybe $3,000-4000. Yes, it gets much better fuel mileage than a V-10, and while that fuel may be cheaper than regular during the summer, it can be more expensive than premium when the home heating oil market is raising demand in winter. My 15 quart oil changes every 5,000 miles cost $35 for 4 gallons of Rotella-T and a Motorcraft filter at Wal-Mart, and $15 to get the guys at the quick lube to change it (my oil drain pan isn't large enough. If I keep it past 100,000-150,000 miles, where a gas engine may need rebuilding, THEN I MAY be ahead financially.
Where the fuel mileage matters is in RANGE per tank. it gets real important with a 26 gallon shortbed tank. But with a 38 gallon tank, I can't even justify it for THAT!
As a matter of fact, I can't even justify it performance-wise. Yes, a V-10 can outpull my 7.3L PSD, despite the difference in torque!
Let's do the math... F250/350 with 4R100 automatic, 3.73:1 axles and LT265 tires... we'll compare the '02-earlier engines.
A 6.8L V10 has 425 ft-lbs at its peak torque point of 3250 rpm and 383 ft-lbs at its peak hp point of 4250 rpm.
A 7.3L PSD has 525 ft-lbs at its peak torque point of 1600 rpm and 505 ft-lbs at it's peak hp point of 2600 rpm.
We wanna be climbing those grades probably between 50 and 65 mph, and what matters is the torque to the ground.
With the PSD, we wanna be shifted out of OD into 1:1 direct-"Drive" where the torque converter's locked and not overheating the transmission. This'll put 50 mph at 2,000 rpm and 65 mph at 2600 rpm. Right smack in the middle of the power band (the rpm range between peak torque and peak hp) with about 510-515 ft-lbs to the axles.
With the V10, we're not even close to the power band yet and we have probably less than 350 ft-lbs at 50 mph and less than 400 ft-lbs at 65 mph. That's a significant difference... only 70-80% of the 7.3L PSD's torque. However...
The V10 can downshift to 2nd (1.54:1) and theoretically be running 3080 rpm with maybe 420 ft-lbs X 1.54 = 646 ft-lbs to the axles at 50 mph, and 4,000 rpm with maybe 390 ft-lbs X 1.54 = 600 ft-lbs to the axles at 65 mph. In reality, the torque converter slipping will cause engine rpms to be higher, where engine torque is lower (past the peak), but the torque multiplication of the slipping torque converter will more than make up for that, even though there's a lot lost to heat.
The big problems with the V10 doing this in 2nd gear will be the transmission temperature and fuel consumption, as long as the screaming engine speed doesn't bother you. Yeah, it's a lot more wear, but for a very short time... a pull like this isn't a significant part of the engine's life.
The V10's ability to put more torque to the ground than the old 7.3L PSD is reflected in the two engine's horsepower ratings. HP = (torque X rpm)/5252 The V10 has 310 hp while the 7.3L PSD has 250 (with auto). The rpm component of horsepower is just as important as the torque component because more rpms allow for lower (higher numerically) gearing which provides more torque multiplication.
The story will be different with the 6.0L PSD's 325 hp at a higher 3300 rpm peak point (about the redline of the 7.3L) and higher 4,000 rpm redline.
Personally, I like pulling a hill at 50-65 mph at 2,000-2,600 rpm rather than 3100-4,000 rpm. And I like having the torque to cruise in OD (only 70% of the torque to the axles in Drive) at 58-70 mph at 1600-2000 rpm. A gas engine has much less torque at that low of an rpm. It's so RELAXING with a low-rpm engine rather than a screaming gas one.
So there ya have it. I own a diesel because I WANT a diesel. No other reason.
I testdrove a used '99 Ford F250 PSD and was disappointed in the street performance. I then testdrove a '01 F250 with V10 which I was also disappointed in pickup. Both had the same rear end ratio. I bought a '01 Chevy 2500HD with 8.1, Allison 5 sp. auto trans. and 3.73 rear end and really like it. I wish I had bought the Duramax diesel for the better gas mileage and slightly better torque. www.pickuptrucks.com has a pulloff between the Duramax and the new Ford diesel engine, both in a heavy 3/4 ton truck. If I remember correctly, the new Ford diesel put the other vehicles to shame. I'm not a Ford person but you might want to see if the article is still on their site. I'm expecting Chevy to do some tweaking of the Duramax to improve it's performance which is just fine now.
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