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-   -   BIODiesel- Blessing or Curse? (https://www.airforums.com/forums/f463/biodiesel-blessing-or-curse-188098.html)

Ray Eklund 10-09-2018 02:31 PM

BIODiesel- Blessing or Curse?
 
Pilot Station, Bellemont, Arizona I-40. Diesel $3.69. Pull in and put in credit card and get ready to pump and on a small sticker: BioDiesel. I return the pump handle, cancel. No receipt, showing $0.00.

Next station Love's in Williams, Arizona was an additional 22 miles west. Diesel $3.48.

After reading about worse mileage with BioDiesel, as soon as I saw the small sticker... I canceled. What happened next was even more interesting.

The canceling the purchase at the pump, also sent to our credit card supplier a 'suspicious transaction' and a hold was put on the card until we contacted the credit card company. It had a $150 credit approved, since Pilot also serves 18 wheeler/truck fueling. With the $0.00 used, it triggered the system to not pay that or any future charges on that card. This was discovered at the Love's pump that would not accept the card.

I used our other credit card. Nancy while traveling on the highway, went through various checking by our credit card issuer to make certain we were the actual card holders. The cell phone service for our phone would cut us off, usually in the last stages of clearing this up... several times. It was an interesting experience and finally were able to get service and pull over to verify and have the card reinstated. Which happened immediately after going through a number of Fraud Interviewers. That is good. BioDiesel... well, still not something I want into my Ford Diesel.

Is BioDiesel as good as Diesel from 100% Petroleum? Well... I think of Ethanol added to gasoline.

What is your experience with BioDiesel? Without our experience with our Credit Card?

Bill M. 10-09-2018 03:16 PM

Just returned from a long trip through the west and midwest. Biodiesel was 30 or so cents cheaper than regular diesel in some areas. Same price in some areas, and unavoidable in some areas. I really do not know how it performs.

My truck generally gets 14-15 mpg towing. Coming home for a couple of days it went down to 11. I was checking the oil and sniffing to see if I had an injector leaking or something. It was running good and smooth and strong. Then I fill up and it went right up to 15. And 16 for the next tankful.

I am going to attribute the difference to winds. We had severe cross winds. Every time I go out west I worry about the biodiesel in the midwest. I always get poor milage. But I really do not know why. Bio diesel, wind, driving faster, using the cruise more, stopping more often. I think it all stacks against fuel milage. So I do not have any real data on bio versus straight. I was worried about the filters and plugging the injectors but that has not been a problem. And the bio is supposed to lubricate the injectors a bit better. So I avoid it if I can and do not worry too much if I can not. Glad I do not have a MB with a 5% limit. My truck came with a 5% limit but then they said it was okay to 20% except for the possibility of plugging a filter or killing the injectors. Not very reassuring.

The credit card: I feel your pain. My credit union has cut my card off for imagined threats while I was traveling. Irritating. I carry several. My wife uses a cell phone service that cuts off during a very long hold. Irritating.

Mrjkq 10-09-2018 03:19 PM

Biodiesel in my opinion is junk fuel. Many disagree but I had two horrific experiences with it plugging up my fuel injectors and costing me over $1000 each time it happened. My current truck is a 2018 Nissan Titan with a cummins engine & the owners Manuel says no bio over 10%. I only use diesel #2 pure petroleum in my truck unless desperate for fuel.

Countryboy59 10-09-2018 05:13 PM

I won’t take a chance on it. And I used to run veggie oil in my old 6.2. These new ones are way too complicated.

mojo 10-09-2018 05:22 PM

I have noticed that Pilot, Flying J, Loves and the other truck stops are charging the highest prices on diesel in the West. Have been paying 3.09 to 3.29 at regular gas stations. The truck stops are charging 3.49 to 3.89 on diesel.

Ray Eklund 10-09-2018 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojo (Post 2166349)
I have noticed that Pilot, Flying J, Loves and the other truck stops are charging the highest prices on diesel in the West. Have been paying 3.09 to 3.29 at regular gas stations. The truck stops are charging 3.49 to 3.89 on diesel.

*****
We discovered that many truck stops that are... convenient... charge more than if you exit into town. Convenience has a price. Those that offer Water and Dump Station... probably would be worth a visit for those in need of either.

Nevada uses California fuel. We pay a premium for living in the Desert, being next to California. Why not from Utah? Your guess is as good as mine.

Diesel:
Rito- Quemado, NM 9-16-2018 $3.25 a gallon
Maverick, ShowLow, AZ 9-16-2018 $3.01 a gallon
Maverick- Holbrook, AZ 9-16-18 $2.68 a gallon
Loves- Williams, AZ 9-16-2018 $3.48 a gallon
Shell- Kingman, AZ 9-16-2018 $3.47 a gallon

Sinclair- Boulder City, NV- 9-25-2018 $3.39 a gallon

Highest Price EVER: 5-23-2018 Chevron- Jacob Lake, AZ- 'Gateway to the North Grand Canyon' at $3.94 a gallon. I asked... whoa, why so much? (They had two guys pumping at the only service station in the area.) "It is shipped in from... California." Why??? Because we... like you.

Lowest Price for 2018: 9-16-2018 Maverick- Holbrook, AZ $2.68 a gallon

Mileage per gallon: Lowest 9.5mpg / Highest 13.5mpg 2014 F350 4x4, topper, 25 foot Airstream, 6.7 turbo Diesel

crispyboy 10-10-2018 09:44 AM

From what I have read on the subject:
- Biodiesel adds more lubricity to ULSD fuel
- Biodiesel can retain more moisture
- Moisture is really bad for injection systems and can promote algae growth in diesel tanks and clog filters.

- 5% or less biodiesel is not labeled on the pump. Most fuel in my Northern KY area has at least 5% or greater. I have seen B20 at truckstops in Illinois.

For this reason I put another filter prior to the factory filter on my truck to aid in stripping off moisture from the fuel. The trucks "water in fuel" sensor is moved to this new location. Luckily I have yet to have the sensor indicate there has been water in fuel.
You may want to peruse the Ford diesel forums and see if the factory fuel filtration is up to spec for the B10 and higher fuels or if something should be added. People have spent outrageous amounts of money fixing modern fuel injection systems because they have gotten so complex. Cost of injection system and emission repair is why some folks have went back to big gas motors. Otherwise keep up the maintenance on the fuel filters and drive on.

EarlM 10-10-2018 10:40 AM

Biodiesel
 
Biodiesel is the fuel of last resort

if you have a newer Sprinter, MB has changed the oil change interval from 20,000 miles to 10,000 miles if you use Bio Diesel

Stay away from truck stops as most sell Biodiesel

MB recommends less that 5% Biodiesel

You have to check the label on the pump you want Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel is the best to use

Minnesota requires all biodiesel B-20

I carry a spare fuel filter as they may be hard to find on the highway, unless you have a skillset and tools you will need a technician to change the fuel filter.

Mrjkq 10-10-2018 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crispyboy (Post 2166568)
From what I have read on the subject:
- Biodiesel adds more lubricity to ULSD fuel
- Biodiesel can retain more moisture
- Moisture is really bad for injection systems and can promote algae growth in diesel tanks and clog filters.

- 5% or less biodiesel is not labeled on the pump. Most fuel in my Northern KY area has at least 5% or greater. I have seen B20 at truckstops in Illinois.

For this reason I put another filter prior to the factory filter on my truck to aid in stripping off moisture from the fuel. The trucks "water in fuel" sensor is moved to this new location. Luckily I have yet to have the sensor indicate there has been water in fuel.
You may want to peruse the Ford diesel forums and see if the factory fuel filtration is up to spec for the B10 and higher fuels or if something should be added. People have spent outrageous amounts of money fixing modern fuel injection systems because they have gotten so complex. Cost of injection system and emission repair is why some folks have went back to big gas motors. Otherwise keep up the maintenance on the fuel filters and drive on.

I agree with your thinking, my cummins has two factory fuel filters with the water separator located at the first one. I could be wrong but I do believe that diesel #2 at the pump has no bio in it. Also, I believe any biodiesel regardless of percentage is federally required to have a sticker at the pump.

mykytiukr 10-10-2018 11:14 AM

High Fuel Prices!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mojo (Post 2166349)
I have noticed that Pilot, Flying J, Loves and the other truck stops are charging the highest prices on diesel in the West. Have been paying 3.09 to 3.29 at regular gas stations. The truck stops are charging 3.49 to 3.89 on diesel.

The reason for these inflated fuel prices is that trucking companies are willing to pay it. The logic behind this is what I do not know. Part of it may be that these big chain truck stops offer a discount to fleets that are on some sort of account. But the discount is only 9 cents per gallon. Subtract this from a price that is inflated 50 cents a gallon and for some reason fleets believe they are getting a deal. Iím not getting it either!!! Most of the time you can go to the next exit and get fuel significantly cheaper. The truck I operate can carry 300 gallons of fuel. The only reason that I buy fuel at the Pilot/Flying J chain is to get a shower credit which can be used at any one of them and I only buy the minimum amount which is 60 gallons. When I see an independent selling it for 20 to 50 cents cheaper then I will fill it. I can save $100 to $200 a week by doing this!!! So, again, Iím not getting either!!!

Ray Eklund 10-10-2018 11:42 AM

Nancy is the 'number juggler' for using credit cards at the Pump.

Credit Card #1- 4.00% Cash Back on Total Amount
Credit Card #2- 5.25% Cash Back up to $2,500 of charges, each three months maximum. Then the percentage drops... to 1%.

This does add up when traveling.

I like the 99 cent refill on my 44 ounce Soda Refills. I have 80% ICE and 20% SODA. Sometimes the smaller stations will 'give' you the refill. Laramie and Kemmerer, Wyoming were two towns that the station gave 'free refills'. Probably since I wear a 'Wyoming Cowboys' tee shirt when traveling in Wyoming.

Like mykytiukr... work the numbers.

Diesel pumps are usually on the Outside Lanes at smaller stations.

Some smaller stations may not have Diesel. Some major stations have a Credit and a Cash Price. I have found that some charge the Cash Price, even with a Credit Card.

Some newer stations, small and large companies, offer pumps for Def at a somewhat elevated price, but convenient.

Some stations have a price of, example, $3.25... long lines. Another with a price of $3.27, no line. Which do we use...? The $3.27. Convenience is sometimes better than price.

Small town stations. Walk in and ask what the 'Cash Discount' is. Use to get 10 cents a gallon discount, when fuel was.. cheap. If you do not ask, you will not know. Even if you can talk them into tossing in a free drink or two...

I use to recycle used ATV and riding Lawn Mower oil at a local service station in Castle Rock, Colorado. He actually used it as fuel to heat his garage... a Win / Win for both of us.

JohnTF 10-10-2018 02:59 PM

The thread title was about bio-diesel , and many comments were not about bio-diesel .
And most of the comments , are the usual these days with internet - little to nothing known - so most make many false claims .
I studied several university's studies of bio-diesel , and also dealt with several commercial & farmer co-ops that were making commercial level .
Then got involved in a number bio-diesel making groups [ not veggie oil whatever ] - veggie oil is not generally the way to go .
But as far as bio-diesel goes , it can be a game changer , but like most things corruption / greed is the cause of many problems with so many things , and bio-diesel is just one of them .
1st off we should never use any food -a related crops to make fuel with .
Most of the universities started with a waste by product of food crops for a base to make it from - in this case , it was oil from processing soy beans , now it is problematic in raising pricing on what use to be a waste by product .
So then for large volume to really help to take the place of petro diesel , the good universities went looking at other new base's to make bio-diesel , and one very good one is from algae .
As time goes by things change , both the base that fuel is made from , and the fuel systems , my involvement was for over 20 yrs. and using it in 10-20 old trucks - so that goes back over 40 yrs.
I was also in the auto repair business , so again this based , not on rummers heard from others that did not know .
Same with if it is made correctly - watch out for home-brewers - that may be short on there studies , money & equipment - so not making it correctly .
But commercial is regulated , and they are invested in making a good product - so a better source .
Now some of the facts , bio-diesel has a little lower BTU's , but higher on centane .
Also there is more lubricity to bio-diesel .
Then one major issue with not knowing what your doing with bio-diesel , is plugged fuel system - this comes from the cleaning affect of bio-diesel [ especially at higher percentages , and in older systems { that have had more time to accumulate more dirt }] .
So the need for carrying an extra fuel filter - generally speaking , maybe 2 extra filters .
On many multiple trucks I was involved with , is after about a couple hundred miles , or a week or so , the filter would plug up , usually not starting after stopping , just swap-out the the filter and good to go , and mostly only after the 1st change to bio-diesel .
All this will vary with the percentage of bio , the higher the percentage the quicker the cleaning and the older the more dirt to plug the system .
There are several methods of making bio and each uses different product to make it , and each has its own precautions , the most common 10+ yrs. ago , used methanol , some use water based production - in both water is removed .
Then I started making my own , at the time I was using used fryer oil from restaurants that were paying to get rid , my cost of making was about 0.60 per gal. for bio-diesel / NOT vegie oil fuel - vegie does not separate the glycerin out - bio does .
To help with making up the BTU difference , I would super-filter my used crankcase oil with both regular pleated filter , but also using a centrifuge [ with would remove particles down to .10 micron ] and then add about .03 - .10 percent .
Another benefit is reducing emissions , the higher the percentage of bio , the more the emissions are reduced .
I also did emissions testing in No. Cal. - but before I started making bio-diesel .
So with RVing , it would generally be easier to just use from the pump what ever you can find --- BUT keeping extra fuel filters is , and has always been a good idea , because even before bio , there were many times that trucks would come in the shop not running / or running poorly - because of bad fuel , there are many ways that fuel can be be contaminated .
Bottom line is - do fall into the ignorant behavior of , not knowing about something - so just assuming bad things , remember what A.S.S.U.M.E. means ;)

powerwiz 10-10-2018 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnTF (Post 2166720)
1st off we should never use any food -a related crops to make fuel with .
Most of the universities started with a waste by product of food crops for a base to make it from - in this case , it was oil from processing soy beans , now it is problematic in raising pricing on what use to be a waste by product


You are absolutely correct on this. Gosh I cant remember where I read it but basically the main advocate of bio fuel anything for the Obama regime talked about this and why its ultimately a fail. Most of the increase in costs comes from the apparatus surrounding the growing, harvesting, tending etc to the crops that constitute any bio fuels. No matter now cheap or affordable they make the process all the rest adds to the total cost with it being unreasonable to even touch until gas is 6-8 a gallon.

powerwiz 10-10-2018 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrjkq (Post 2166595)
I agree with your thinking, my cummins has two factory fuel filters with the water separator located at the first one. I could be wrong but I do believe that diesel #2 at the pump has no bio in it. Also, I believe any biodiesel regardless of percentage is federally required to have a sticker at the pump.




Is that a Nissan Titan XD in your icon picture? XD Pro-4x owner here. Loving it.

greenflag 10-10-2018 05:39 PM

My 08 Duramax says 5% max BD. Out west here I use Chevron or Shell Oil as most are still 100% diesel. Just completed a 3K mile trip in the West. Had to take what I could get when traveling. On the road I use Lucas injector cleaner. It is good for Diesel and gas engines. You can find it at WalMart. Truck stops carry it but usually in gallon sizes. I have 184K on my Duramax with no injector issues. The highest I paid for diesel in Colorado was $3.29. Now that I am home in Los Angeles, how does $4.25 sound.

Ray Eklund 10-10-2018 05:53 PM

As a Geologist... it is no secret, to us, that there is NO Shortage of Petroleum. Especially the NON Gasoline light petroleums. A surplus exists and the oil shortage has been exploited for a hundred years.

There is no reason to add processed Beef Fat into our Diesel, nor Ethanol from Corn into our Gasoline.

It is politically motivated to... appease voters and suppliers. One was to reduce the price of Gasoline, which it has not. The other was to... find a way to dispose of grease waste for a profit.

Gasoline was a WASTE product from processing Petroleum for lubricants and kerosene before internal combustion engines. The purity of gasoline, from my understanding, was to toss a volume out and if none remained when it would have contacted the surface... it was ready to sell.

Of course we who drive vehicles are ignorant. But... to depend on getting a true picture of what is actually going on... today... takes a bit more accepting what I and others have been 'spoon fed' by those who profit in Laboratories and Research. to help and aid... Mankind.

Vagabonds_2 10-10-2018 06:03 PM

Credit Card Issues
 
The credit card: I feel your pain. My credit union has cut my card off for imagined threats while I was traveling. Irritating. I carry several. My wife uses a cell phone service that cuts off during a very long hold. Irritating.[/QUOTE]

We endured this credit card difficulty on way to International Rally in Salem, OR; and our credit union said we were supposed to inform them when we were travelling so they could switch off the fraud alert.

r carl 10-10-2018 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerwiz (Post 2166763)
You are absolutely correct on this. Gosh I cant remember where I read it but basically the main advocate of bio fuel anything for the Obama regime talked about this and why its ultimately a fail. Most of the increase in costs comes from the apparatus surrounding the growing, harvesting, tending etc to the crops that constitute any bio fuels. No matter now cheap or affordable they make the process all the rest adds to the total cost with it being unreasonable to even touch until gas is 6-8 a gallon.

I wonder how the Monsanto Protection Act that obama passed fits in here. :angry:

JamuJoe 10-12-2018 09:32 AM

BIODiesel- Blessing or Curse?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Eklund (Post 2166279)
Pilot Station, Bellemont, Arizona I-40. Diesel $3.69. Pull in and put in credit card and get ready to pump and on a small sticker: BioDiesel. I return the pump handle, cancel. No receipt, showing $0.00.



Next station Love's in Williams, Arizona was an additional 22 miles west. Diesel $3.48.



After reading about worse mileage with BioDiesel, as soon as I saw the small sticker... I canceled. What happened next was even more interesting.



The canceling the purchase at the pump, also sent to our credit card supplier a 'suspicious transaction' and a hold was put on the card until we contacted the credit card company. It had a $150 credit approved, since Pilot also serves 18 wheeler/truck fueling. With the $0.00 used, it triggered the system to not pay that or any future charges on that card. This was discovered at the Love's pump that would not accept the card.



I used our other credit card. Nancy while traveling on the highway, went through various checking by our credit card issuer to make certain we were the actual card holders. The cell phone service for our phone would cut us off, usually in the last stages of clearing this up... several times. It was an interesting experience and finally were able to get service and pull over to verify and have the card reinstated. Which happened immediately after going through a number of Fraud Interviewers. That is good. BioDiesel... well, still not something I want into my Ford Diesel.



Is BioDiesel as good as Diesel from 100% Petroleum? Well... I think of Ethanol added to gasoline.



What is your experience with BioDiesel? Without our experience with our Credit Card?



I probably pulled through 50% of the stations where I had intended to fill my Grand Cherokee ecodiesel, upon noticing the dreaded biodiesel sticker. If truly needy, I gritted my teeth, bought a 1/4 tank and searched onward. It really annoyed me that the large price signboards didn't disclose their offering to be BD. I knew that my power & mileage would suffer with that bastard brew born of pork barrel politics. In the Grand Cherokee, the engine computers would reduce my remaining oil life if fed BD.

I have the same low regard for ethanol-diluted gasoline, a concoction designed to burn off excess corn production.

Thankfully, it can't be done physically, otherwise our genius administration would dictate mixing coal powder into diesel and gasoline.

As an environmentally concerned retired Petroleum Engineer who wants real improvements, I bought my first electric vehicle and installed 9 kw of rooftop solar last year. I am closely following the launch of the Workhorse electric pickup, and will be in line when the consumer version is released.

Safe Travels,
JamuJoe

Isuzusweet 10-12-2018 10:07 AM

A curse! Bio diesel; Ethanol, both are curses, and those that keep this garbage coming into our fuels should be cursed as well.:furious:

We've lost more than a few classic motorhomes in the past few years, due to Ethanol corroded cracked rubber fuel lines leaking onto hot manifolds.:mad: One fellow was on his inaugural run after a huge restoration, including a complete exterior polishing, when his coach went up in flames.:sad:

Cheers
Sidekick Tony


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