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ajwbarnard 08-05-2017 09:49 AM

Water/Hot Water 2018 Classic
 
We took delivery of our 2018 30' Classic yesterday. We are experiencing some issues using water and hot water. It certainly could be a newbie user issue.

We are connected to city water and electric. The trailer had a full tank of fresh water on delivery. We connected to city water and it is showing 40 psi of pressure on the regulator. To get enough pressure, we have the water pump also running. Is this normal/acceptable?

We have turned on the water heater. (The first time, it tripped the breaker at the pole because one of the AC units was running.) This morning we tried water heater again and actually added the shower boost and we are only getting seconds of warmish water in the sink faucet. Is there something we are doing wrong?

All advice welcome!

TG Twinkie 08-05-2017 12:25 PM

You don't need the pump on when you are on city water.
Did you make sure the water heater was full before turning it on? Otherwise you may have fried the heating element.
Was the coach winterized when you took delivery?

mojoe7009 08-05-2017 01:15 PM

Water/Hot Water 2018 Classic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ajwbarnard (Post 1988836)
We took delivery of our 2018 30' Classic yesterday. We are experiencing some issues using water and hot water. It certainly could be a newbie user issue.

We are connected to city water and electric. The trailer had a full tank of fresh water on delivery. We connected to city water and it is showing 40 psi of pressure on the regulator. To get enough pressure, we have the water pump also running. Is this normal/acceptable?

We have turned on the water heater. (The first time, it tripped the breaker at the pole because one of the AC units was running.) This morning we tried water heater again and actually added the shower boost and we are only getting seconds of warmish water in the sink faucet. Is there something we are doing wrong?

All advice welcome!



The shower boost takes about 15 to 20 minutes to get the water temperature up to 149 to 151 degrees. I thought the 2018's had the new Alde on demand system? Ours is a 2017. There is a great thread on the forum called "Much Ado About Alde". Search for that and you will find many answers. Things are different on the 17's and 18's and most of that thread will be referring to the 17's, but it will still help understanding the system better. We have a separate Alde Control Panel and my understanding is that your Alde controls are integrated in your Firefly panel.
Not sure but if you're water pump is on you might be pulling from your fresh water tank. Also, if you added an inline pressure regulator outside you are reducing your pressure significantly since the trailer has a built in water pressure regulator.

uncle_bob 08-05-2017 02:46 PM

Hi

Water and power basics:

The pressure into the regulator should be up around 50 pounds or so. Coming out, anything over 30 pounds should be "good enough. My guess is that you are running through a really long hose and that is giving you a pressure issue. A typical hose run is < 25 feet.

Running both the pump and city water is not a real good idea. It should be an either / or kind of thing.

The "old" Alde system had two electric heaters and one LP driven heater. To get it rip roaring hot you turned on all three.

At the sink (on the older system), the normal "hot water" is what I would call very warm water. Without the shower boost it's not what I would call hot. How hot it gets is adjustable. One dealer likely sets it different than the next. Since it's a mix valve, very cold city water will give you "colder" hot water. Hotter hot water used to mean you got less of it before it died.

The 30' Classic is quite capable of tripping a 30A breaker running one AC unit. You *do* have to watch what you have turned on. When hooked up to a "50A" system, you have 100A of 120V available.(yes, it's confusing). That's what the trailer was designed for.

Bob

paiceman 08-06-2017 05:15 AM

When we are connected to 30amp, just to be sure, we only run the rear AC, which is the 13.5 AC. We also do not generally run the microwave when the AC is on. When connected to 50amp we "let her rip".

As others have said we understand that the 2018 has continuous hot water, so to speak, and therefore your flow should not be intermittent. If your trailer has the same Kohler handle and shower head our 2017 does there is an anti scald device on the Kohler handle I disconnected on our unit and now with the 2017 we get more than enough continuous hot water for two fairly long showers ie enough for my wife to wash her hair and our two regular showers. Also, as suggested I'd read every post in the "much ado about Alde" in these forums. It should answer a lot of your questions.

Bud

mojoe7009 08-06-2017 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle_bob (Post 1988961)
Hi



The "old" Alde system had two electric heaters and one LP driven heater. To get it rip roaring hot you turned on all three.



Bob


According to the Alde manual if you are hooked to shore power and turn on the gas as well, the system will prioritize the electric and not use the gas. That has been my experience. We had major hot water issues after delivery like many others with 2017's. We tried everything including having the electric and gas on at the same time. It will use the electric and not the gas...at least in our unit.
Kudos go to Jon at Airstream and the service team at JC. They stuck with me and went out of there way to get the system working correctly. We now have plenty of hot water when hooked to shore power.

james.mileur 08-06-2017 11:29 AM

Depending on the city water, I used to turn on the pump during showers for a higher flowrate.

kendrick.l.j 08-06-2017 01:47 PM

AJ....better or worse today?

james.mileur 08-06-2017 02:05 PM

AJ, a quick look at your owners manual and the Alde phone app gives no clues, actually less than the 17 Alde. If your model number, 3020?, might be able to read manual at Alde website.

uncle_bob 08-06-2017 03:51 PM

Hi

One obscure thing to check: Is your glycol fluid level up where it should be? There may be interactions between an "air filled" glycol chamber and the water heater. I'd *hope* the days of un-filled heating systems are behind us. Some issues do go on and on ..... Details on how to check the fluid system are all in the previously mentioned thread. Hopefully the 2018 is close enough to a 2017 for them to apply.

Bob

MelGoddard 08-06-2017 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojoe7009 (Post 1988925)
The shower boost takes about 15 to 20 minutes to get the water temperature up to 149 to 151 degrees. I thought the 2018's had the new Alde on demand system? Ours is a 2017. There is a great thread on the forum called "Much Ado About Alde". Search for that and you will find many answers. Things are different on the 17's and 18's and most of that thread will be referring to the 17's, but it will still help understanding the system better. We have a separate Alde Control Panel and my understanding is that your Alde controls are integrated in your Firefly panel.
Not sure but if you're water pump is on you might be pulling from your fresh water tank. Also, if you added an inline pressure regulator outside you are reducing your pressure significantly since the trailer has a built in water pressure regulator.

After reading a number of issues about the OEM pressure regulator, I continue to use my Valtera regulator which is set for 50-55 P.S.I.
It not only ensures that the supplied regulator is working in a safer pressure zone; it also protects the hose from bursting due to campground overpressures.
My main sink was not giving much flow, so I removed the aeriator from the faucet. Much better flow.:wally:

Another thing to check, is that the outside shower taps are fully closed. They can bypass hot and cold water, giving warm.

MelGoddard 08-06-2017 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle_bob (Post 1989523)
Hi

One obscure thing to check: Is your glycol fluid level up where it should be? There may be interactions between an "air filled" glycol chamber and the water heater. I'd *hope* the days of un-filled heating systems are behind us. Some issues do go on and on ..... Details on how to check the fluid system are all in the previously mentioned thread. Hopefully the 2018 is close enough to a 2017 for them to apply.

Bob

GLYCOL??? in Water system????:confused:
DEADLY COMBO! :angry:
REALLY, REALLY FLUSH IT OUT!!
OR PAY THE FUNERAL COSTS!!:mad:

kendrick.l.j 08-06-2017 07:58 PM

Mel, relax. We are talking about the 17 and 18 Classics OnLY. These two models have radiant heat systems that no other units have. At least none that I know of...they use a special glycol based product. That is what Bob was talking about.

switz 08-06-2017 08:22 PM

Somewhat like the hot water/glycol base board heating of the 70s, except there is a heater with circulating pump for the fluid in the tubing. :blink:

Hopefully no leaks ever develop. :bb:

But wait, it is an Airstream......

Happy-rver 08-06-2017 08:26 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by ajwbarnard (Post 1988836)
We took delivery of our 2018 30' Classic yesterday. We are experiencing some issues using water and hot water. It certainly could be a newbie user issue.

We are connected to city water and electric. The trailer had a full tank of fresh water on delivery. We connected to city water and it is showing 40 psi of pressure on the regulator. To get enough pressure, we have the water pump also running. Is this normal/acceptable?

We have turned on the water heater. (The first time, it tripped the breaker at the pole because one of the AC units was running.) This morning we tried water heater again and actually added the shower boost and we are only getting seconds of warmish water in the sink faucet. Is there something we are doing wrong?

All advice welcome!



So, we picked up our 2018 Classic on Jun 20/17. Since then we have spent 18 nights at the dealer and now most things on the trailer work. Hot water and heating is not one of them, at least by using the Firefly Panel. We have developed a work around that makes the trailer at least live able. The Firefly (GUI Version 2.4, Logic Controller Version 2.4) panel and the Alde panel do not seem to work together. We found the Alde panel kept turning off, no heat no hot water. So here are the steps we have taken.
1/ Open the 20 breaker on the trailers panel that supplies 120 v power to the Alde (we are at a park the only has 30 A service).
2/ On the Firefly panel insure that gas, electric, Water Heater, Heater and Shower Boost are all off.
3/ On the Alde panel (after turning it back on after attempts to use Firefly panel) hit the menu button and set the temp to desired setting, ours is at 71 F.
4/ Hit the the gas on button.
5/ Hit the button that looks like a wrench.
6/ Hit upper left button (looks like a clock) and set the time and day.
7/ Hit ok and then hit upper center button the looks like a half moon and set the night time temp. Our is set to start at 22:00 and stop at 05:00 at 68 F.
8/ At 20 min before shower time hit Menu, then second plus sign from top (turns on shower boast).

Now, all you have to do is shower quickly and if you keep moving you can just make it before you run out of hot water. As for Alde Flow it seems to be a red box that does nothing at all. Anyway, keep messing with it and be sure to let Daniel R. Snider at dsnider@airstream.com how you are making out now that you are part of the research and development team.

Attachment 291503

kendrick.l.j 08-07-2017 02:41 AM

Oh my gosh. I have so much to say I don't know where to start. As I read Happy Rvers post I counted at least 3 major things that Happy was doing wrong. Those of us with the 17s have already been down this road and weather AS wants to listen to what we have worked through or not we can help the 18 achieve enough hot water for two adults to take very comfortable hot showers. I have timed my shower and I can get 14 minutes of serious hot water before it starts to cool down. With the 18s larger tanks they should be able to do even better. The good thing is at least the 18s have a separate Alde panel that I didn't know about which is good because now they can control the system without the FireFly.
It is 3:30 am right now but I be back later to lend a hand after a little more sleep.

paiceman 08-07-2017 04:35 AM

As Lauri posted there is hope. Very simple and actually in retrospect two easy steps which many of us have taken and like Lauri we get in excess of 12 minutes of hot, not warm but hot water. Enough for two adults to take what we would call "home-regular" showers including my wife washing her hair.

The two steps are, and these are posted in the Alde tread in this section: (1) adjust the Alde mixing valve all the way to hot, but loosening it, pulling it off slightly and then turning it without actually turning the mixing valve, just the knob and then putting it back on and tightening the screw. (2) pull the Kohler handle off the shower, inside behind the plate is an anti-scalding set screw, I took ours all the way out so it no longer functions. Put it all back together.

Then we sometimes, if we want the "regular" showers will push the Alde up for more hot water and wait ten to fifteen minutes. That is it.

I suggest you read every post in the Alde sections and give some of the information a shot. I know it works for us and others.

Bud

uncle_bob 08-07-2017 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelGoddard (Post 1989639)
GLYCOL??? in Water system????:confused:
DEADLY COMBO! :angry:
REALLY, REALLY FLUSH IT OUT!!
OR PAY THE FUNERAL COSTS!!:mad:

Hi

The heater assembly has both glycol and hot water in it. In *normal* operation heat will flow through the glycol filled chamber portion of the assembly. Put air in that part and you have effectively no heat flow through that section. With pretty much zero details on how everything is hooked up and where the control sensor is, ... who knows if this matters.

One of the reasons for the "strange" glycol used on the Alde system is that it is *not* deadly poison. It's in the "generally regarded as safe" category. Weather this is because of a possibility of mixing or for some other reason ... again who knows.

Bob

james.mileur 08-07-2017 09:11 AM

Inside leaks and pets, kids, etc. Probably still doesn't taste good.

kendrick.l.j 08-07-2017 09:31 AM

Another step for those having issues with the '18 is to turn off the Timer function completely. It never worked on mine and several other 17s that I know about. If you are hooked up to shore power, don't try and use the LP to increase heat, won't work.
If you have hot water at the tank then it is just a matter of getting that hot water to the faucets, which will work if you take the necessary steps. 1. Adjuste the mixing valve, 2. Remove anti scalding device 3. Make sure you don't have any preset timer function. 4. Hit the hot water booster function on the Alde panel about 15 minutes prior to shower.
But first make sure the Alde system is functional. Do you have fluid in the tank above toilet, hidden behind a panel. Have you bled the system for air. Read the Much ado about Alde thread for details. Once you know that the system is actually working properly then you can proceed to shower issues.
All this may take some time for Newbies but those of us that have the 17s have already worked through this and documented in the process here. I survived 2 months or cold and cold showers before I was able to get all the fixes done but then I also had a broken mixing valve that needed replaced and didn't know it until the very end.
I urge the new 18s the please read the Alde thread, you will not find this important information from Airstream. All of the information has been place here on the forum for you to use. We are here to help, encourage and advise. When you finally get the bugs worked out you will absolutely love your Airstream, I know I do.

paiceman 08-07-2017 10:39 AM

The Alde fluid is not poisonous and tastes awful, don't ask.

Bud

uncle_bob 08-07-2017 07:30 PM

Hi

We use the "shower boost" at dishwashing time ... ok, so we're weird. You already knew than didn't you? :)

====

My guess is that the firmware updates to make the Alde and Firefly "compatible" don't quite work yet. I'd be less than honest if I claimed that *none* of my firmware projects ever came in over-schedule. It's a common problem, even in companies that know way more about it than Airstream (obviously) does.

Bob

ajwbarnard 08-07-2017 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojoe7009 (Post 1989200)
According to the Alde manual if you are hooked to shore power and turn on the gas as well, the system will prioritize the electric and not use the gas. That has been my experience. We had major hot water issues after delivery like many others with 2017's. We tried everything including having the electric and gas on at the same time. It will use the electric and not the gas...at least in our unit.
Kudos go to Jon at Airstream and the service team at JC. They stuck with me and went out of there way to get the system working correctly. We now have plenty of hot water when hooked to shore power.



So what did JC do? Is this something you did over the phone?

ajwbarnard 08-07-2017 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelGoddard (Post 1989637)
After reading a number of issues about the OEM pressure regulator, I continue to use my Valtera regulator which is set for 50-55 P.S.I.
It not only ensures that the supplied regulator is working in a safer pressure zone; it also protects the hose from bursting due to campground overpressures.
My main sink was not giving much flow, so I removed the aeriator from the faucet. Much better flow.:wally:

Another thing to check, is that the outside shower taps are fully closed. They can bypass hot and cold water, giving warm.



Right now, we can't get to our outdoor shower. None of the keys we have open the door. Working on that issue, too, but not as crucial as hot water.

ajwbarnard 08-07-2017 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy-rver (Post 1989658)
So, we picked up our 2018 Classic on Jun 20/17. Since then we have spent 18 nights at the dealer and now most things on the trailer work. Hot water and heating is not one of them, at least by using the Firefly Panel. We have developed a work around that makes the trailer at least live able. The Firefly (GUI Version 2.4, Logic Controller Version 2.4) panel and the Alde panel do not seem to work together. We found the Alde panel kept turning off, no heat no hot water. So here are the steps we have taken.
1/ Open the 20 breaker on the trailers panel that supplies 120 v power to the Alde (we are at a park the only has 30 A service).
2/ On the Firefly panel insure that gas, electric, Water Heater, Heater and Shower Boost are all off.
3/ On the Alde panel (after turning it back on after attempts to use Firefly panel) hit the menu button and set the temp to desired setting, ours is at 71 F.
4/ Hit the the gas on button.
5/ Hit the button that looks like a wrench.
6/ Hit upper left button (looks like a clock) and set the time and day.
7/ Hit ok and then hit upper center button the looks like a half moon and set the night time temp. Our is set to start at 22:00 and stop at 05:00 at 68 F.
8/ At 20 min before shower time hit Menu, then second plus sign from top (turns on shower boast).

Now, all you have to do is shower quickly and if you keep moving you can just make it before you run out of hot water. As for Alde Flow it seems to be a red box that does nothing at all. Anyway, keep messing with it and be sure to let Daniel R. Snider at dsnider@airstream.com how you are making out now that you are part of the research and development team.

Attachment 291503



We found the Alde panel under the sink. Played with it, but have not tried this yet. I will be sure and email Daniel Snider!

ajwbarnard 08-07-2017 08:00 PM

We are still working on the water issues. We have gotten rid of the pressure regulator and I have pressure that I can live with. The Alde heating system is working well. It warmed the trailer up on the past couple of mornings. And it is not as if there is no hot water being produced. I had about 20 seconds from each of the faucets today, but it continues to go cold. We do our the dealer involved, but hope they know what they are doing or know where/who to talk to about it. I will read back through the older Alde post. I didn't know if 2017 and 2018's would have similar issues with hot water since this is supposedly a 2018 feature. We did find the mixing valve and the hot water that we are now getting intermittently is hotter than it was. The Alde panel under the sink was reading 48 degrees. I like hot water, so I will be upping that number. But what controls the temperature, the mixing valve or the software? And I will look at the anti-scald. I don't think right now that is a problem except from the hot water I am boiling to wash dishes.

mojoe7009 08-07-2017 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajwbarnard (Post 1990191)
So what did JC do? Is this something you did over the phone?



They took the trailer to JC and kept it for 10 weeks to fix all my issues, the major one being the hot water. Honestly, I have yet to get the specifics of what they did to fix it, but we just got back from a 3 week trip and had plenty of hot water the whole time. I will say that Airstream and Alde are in complete and total denial that Bud (paiceman) and Lauri are getting 10+ minutes of hot water. I suggested that they reach out to them and find out what they did, specifically, to fix the issue. That has never happened. They just don't believe it no matter what you say to them. They monitor this forum and they have seen their posts but refuse to reach to the real "field testers". At this point I am not concerned with that because I, thankfully, have sufficient hot water.

paiceman 08-08-2017 05:15 AM

I have as I've stated a number of times on here and to others sufficient hot water on a 2017 Alde system for two nice showers of up to 10-14 minutes total before the water starts to cool down. Like mojoe7009 I am no concerned with what is the proper procedure as prescribed by Alde and JC as I tried the procedures and had limited success at best.

My Alde mixing valve is set to max, not simply turned to max, but taken off, put back on at minimum, the rotated to max and done again until it can turn no more. Then on the Kohler shower anti-scald I've basically put it out of service. If there are young children using the shower on their own I would not advise this second action be taken as our hot water is in excess of 140 degrees F.

That finished the adjustments made to the Alde Hot Water system and we, as I've stated, have sufficient hot water for whatever we need to do.

ajwbarnard are you certain that the Alde panel is what is under your kitchen sink? I ask because in our unit, the 2017 Classic the panel under the sink is the AS battery and tank monitor panel. Seems like an odd place to put a panel one needs to access, read and push buttons on.

Bud

ajwbarnard 08-08-2017 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paiceman (Post 1990336)
I have as I've stated a number of times on here and to others sufficient hot water on a 2017 Alde system for two nice showers of up to 10-14 minutes total before the water starts to cool down. Like mojoe7009 I am no concerned with what is the proper procedure as prescribed by Alde and JC as I tried the procedures and had limited success at best.

My Alde mixing valve is set to max, not simply turned to max, but taken off, put back on at minimum, the rotated to max and done again until it can turn no more. Then on the Kohler shower anti-scald I've basically put it out of service. If there are young children using the shower on their own I would not advise this second action be taken as our hot water is in excess of 140 degrees F.

That finished the adjustments made to the Alde Hot Water system and we, as I've stated, have sufficient hot water for whatever we need to do.

ajwbarnard are you certain that the Alde panel is what is under your kitchen sink? I ask because in our unit, the 2017 Classic the panel under the sink is the AS battery and tank monitor panel. Seems like an odd place to put a panel one needs to access, read and push buttons on.

Bud



I don't think you are supposed to use it. I think your are supposed to use the main panel. This is on the back wall behind the water hoses for the kitchen faucet and has all the options another person talked about and match the Alde manual we found on line (plus an EXT option). I think it is what the main panel above the dinette is talking to when you push the options for the Alde system. If the whole thing didn't work, no heat or hot water ever, I would say the mechanical aspect of the system had a problem. I am more inclined to believe we have a software issue.

james.mileur 08-08-2017 06:30 AM

Just a couple of random dots to connect, the 48 under the sink is probably your cold water feed to the Alde Flow pre heater? The short burst of hot water then to cold, I'll bet a liquid confectionary, is a run of hot water in the tubing that is quickly followed by the mixed colder water from your outdoor shower valves open with the handheld button stopping flow out of the nozzle. You supposedly have a 3.5 gallon Sanitary water jacket, at about the same temp as your heating water and a pre heater, gas and/or electric? Try see if any Alde model numbers or names in any of your literature, including the Window Sticker.

Have you run through the Alde panel menus to find your Heat and Sanitary Temps?

switz 08-08-2017 10:03 AM

1 Attachment(s)
We retrofitted the Truma "AquaGo comfort" model (German made) propane fueled instant on water heater in both our 2014 31' Classic and 2015 23D International Serenity. There is unlimited hot water with the only constraint the size of the gray water tank. If the drain valve of the gray water tank were left open, one could take as long of a shower as desired!

The only control inside the trailer is the on/off switch and the only control in the unit accessed from outside is the switch that selects "eco" - off - "comfort" modes. It requires a little 12Vdc for the control circuit board. The unit, if powered on, will keep itself from freezing. Newer models can do that with 12Vdc.

We covered the white door with Airstream aluminum skin riveted to the door and painted the frame silver. We also installed a screen against mud daubers building a nest inside the unit.

james.mileur 08-08-2017 10:15 AM

Is that under the bathroom sink on the classic?

Happy-rver 08-08-2017 10:36 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by ajwbarnard (Post 1990342)
I don't think you are supposed to use it. I think your are supposed to use the main panel. This is on the back wall behind the water hoses for the kitchen faucet and has all the options another person talked about and match the Alde manual we found on line (plus an EXT option). I think it is what the main panel above the dinette is talking to when you push the options for the Alde system. If the whole thing didn't work, no heat or hot water ever, I would say the mechanical aspect of the system had a problem. I am more inclined to believe we have a software issue.



It seem to me that the 18 is different enough from the 17 that at least some of the issues with 17ís do not apply. I cannot see how removing the anti scalding device would increase the volume of hot water. I have found the water is more than hot enough at the start of the shower, you just have to keep turning the valve from 8:00 to the top 12:00 as you shower and by final rinse off the water is at tap temperature. I am now experimenting with partly closing the shut off valve on the shower handle to slow down the flow, less flow less hot water used in the mix.

As for air in the system, JC and the dealers are all over that one. I keep checking the reservoir and the level is good. I find you just have to keep draining the hot water tank to keep the air pocket, l have been doing it every weekend. The big issue is the Fireflyís inability to operate the Alde panel. There is a definite programming problem. I have found it results in three problems, it turns Alde off, it changes the temperature set point to something like 48F if you turn shower boost on or 84F if you turn on heat. I have e-mailed Firefly with what I think is an easy question to answer. Roughly, how long is it going to take to reprogram? If it's months than I am ok with managing by going straight to the Alde panel and ignoring the Firefly to manage heat and hot water. If it's many months or years than I feel Airstream is on the hook to relocate the Alde panel to a user friendly location.

Now, the Alde Flow, looks great on their web page, just doesn't do what it's supposed to. Could it be that it's hooked to a 3010 and their page says it works well with a 3020? I know I have lots of water and propane so by their statements I should not run out of hot water. Q



Attachment 291653

Happy-rver 08-08-2017 10:39 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by happy-rver (Post 1990475)
it seem to me that the 18 is different enough from the 17 that at least some of the issues with 17ís do not apply. I cannot see how removing the anti scalding device would increase the volume of hot water. I have found the water is more than hot enough at the start of the shower, you just have to keep turning the valve from 8:00 to the top 12:00 as you shower and by final rinse off the water is at tap temperature. I am now experimenting with partly closing the shut off valve on the shower handle to slow down the flow, less flow less hot water used in the mix.

As for air in the system, jc and the dealers are all over that one. I keep checking the reservoir and the level is good. I find you just have to keep draining the hot water tank to keep the air pocket, l have been doing it every weekend. The big issue is the fireflyís inability to operate the alde panel. There is a definite programming problem. I have found it results in three problems, it turns alde off, it changes the temperature set point to something like 48f if you turn shower boost on or 84f if you turn on heat. I have e-mailed firefly with what i think is an easy question to answer. Roughly, how long is it going to take to reprogram? If it's months than i am ok with managing by going straight to the alde panel and ignoring the firefly to manage heat and hot water. If it's many months or years than i feel airstream is on the hook to relocate the alde panel to a user friendly location.

Now, the alde flow, looks great on their web page, just doesn't do what it's supposed to. Could it be that it's hooked to a 3010 and their page says it works well with a 3020? I know i have lots of water and propane so by their statements i should not run out of hot water. Q



Attachment 291653



Attachment 291654

paiceman 08-08-2017 01:19 PM

A number of people including an Airstream tech out west told me that by adjusting the Kohler anti-scald to basically non function status would use up more hot water faster. I've tried explaining to the tech and others, the tech finally got it, that the opposite is true as when much hotter hot water is available, much less is needed for a comfortable shower. Both adjustments need to be done for this to work. That said, I do suspect you have as you stated a glitch in software between the Alde and Firefly. Sounds like a trip to the factory is going to be in your future.

kendrick.l.j 08-08-2017 02:16 PM

SsWITZ.....I love your set up. I have heard about a system like yours and it sure sounds like heaven. Maybe some day after I have used up the warranty but for right now I am very happy with my 14 minutes of steamy shower.

uncle_bob 08-08-2017 06:00 PM

Hi

If it *is* a firmware update at some future point, that's going to involve (re)programming hardware. I'd bet a case of beer that there are zero dealers in the world set up with that hardware. Then there's the need for training in it's use .... so much fun !!!!

The details for the bored:

We get used to things like iPhones and PC's. They come with an upgrade / update package already built in. That's not the case with a little device like an Alde panel or the Firefly. Upgrading them is more like redoing the ECU in your car. Maybe they re-shoot it in the field. Maybe they swap it out and send the old one back to the factory. Either way, a major pain.

Bob

ajwbarnard 08-08-2017 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle_bob (Post 1990688)
Hi

If it *is* a firmware update at some future point, that's going to involve (re)programming hardware. I'd bet a case of beer that there are zero dealers in the world set up with that hardware. Then there's the need for training in it's use .... so much fun !!!!

The details for the bored:

We get used to things like iPhones and PC's. They come with an upgrade / update package already built in. That's not the case with a little device like an Alde panel or the Firefly. Upgrading them is more like redoing the ECU in your car. Maybe they re-shoot it in the field. Maybe they swap it out and send the old one back to the factory. Either way, a major pain.

Bob


Especially for someone like me who are using the trailer on a seasonal site as a "second" home without a tow vehicle to get a jump on retirement plans. Actually moving it anywhere would be difficult.

uncle_bob 08-08-2017 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajwbarnard (Post 1990694)
Especially for someone like me who are using the trailer on a seasonal site as a "second" home without a tow vehicle to get a jump on retirement plans. Actually moving it anywhere would be difficult.

Hi

Keep in mind that the whole "firmware upgrade" thing is just a crazy theory at this point. There are other possibilities.

Bob

Bougeois 08-08-2017 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelGoddard (Post 1989639)
GLYCOL??? in Water system????:confused:

DEADLY COMBO! :angry:

REALLY, REALLY FLUSH IT OUT!!

OR PAY THE FUNERAL COSTS!!:mad:



It's a heat exchanger. They don't mix. Plus it makes the water sweet!!!

switz 08-09-2017 12:10 AM

The Truma "AquaGo Comfort" is actually a smaller installed volume that the original 6 gallon Dometic. It is installed under the sink in the 2014 Classic bathroom and behind the curb side rear wheel under the bed where the Dometic was installed on our 2015 23D International Serenity.

When the Federally mandated seven years parts availability time period expires on these new Classics, I wonder what will happen when these extremely limited production computers and displays die that run the entire trailer in the 2017 & 2018 Classics?

ajwbarnard 08-09-2017 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajwbarnard (Post 1988836)
We took delivery of our 2018 30' Classic yesterday. We are experiencing some issues using water and hot water. It certainly could be a newbie user issue.

We are connected to city water and electric. The trailer had a full tank of fresh water on delivery. We connected to city water and it is showing 40 psi of pressure on the regulator. To get enough pressure, we have the water pump also running. Is this normal/acceptable?

We have turned on the water heater. (The first time, it tripped the breaker at the pole because one of the AC units was running.) This morning we tried water heater again and actually added the shower boost and we are only getting seconds of warmish water in the sink faucet. Is there something we are doing wrong?

All advice welcome!



https://Much Ado About ALDE<br /> <br...d.php?t=162472

uncle_bob 08-09-2017 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by switz (Post 1990841)
The Truma "AquaGo Comfort" is actually a smaller installed volume that the original 6 gallon Dometic. It is installed under the sink in the 2014 Classic bathroom and behind the curb side rear wheel under the bed where the Dometic was installed on our 2015 23D International Serenity.

When the Federally mandated seven years parts availability time period expires on these new Classics, I wonder what will happen when these extremely limited production computers and displays die that run the entire trailer in the 2017 & 2018 Classics?

Hi

..... you sit down with a $30 single board computer and reprogram the whole thing so it actually works right :)

There's surprisingly little "smart" in the Firefly system. The main thing it does is serial multiplexing of the control panels. There are a bunch of wires and connectors. There is some power distribution. It (struggles) chats with a limited number of other devices. Most of what it talks to, we don't have and don't care about.

Is it an afternoon project to replace one? Not hardly. It'll take a couple months to run down all the information on this and that. Once you have the info, the size of the project can be estimated with some accuracy. As a guess, it's a year from start to finish.

Bob

rmkrum 08-09-2017 11:39 AM

Water/Hot Water 2018 Classic
 
As a person who makes his living with computers, I must admit I'm pleased that the most complicated control system in my current AS is the heater thermostat. The rest of it is controlled by simple toggle switches. I agree a $39 processor and a lot of reverse engineering could cure the Firefly issue, but I have an AS to go camping, not to get frustrated with gratuitous automation.

This is getting a bit complex for the 'ordinary user'. I've reached the point in my life that I no longer have the patience to painstakingly fiddle with yet another badly done automation system.

james.mileur 08-09-2017 12:34 PM

Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. Al Einstein

uncle_bob 08-09-2017 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmkrum (Post 1990979)
As a person who makes his living with computers, I must admit I'm pleased that the most complicated control system in my current AS is the heater thermostat. The rest of it is controlled by simple toggle switches. I agree a $39 processor and a lot of reverse engineering could cure the Firefly issue, but I have an AS to go camping, not to get frustrated with gratuitous automation.

This is getting a bit complex for the 'ordinary user'. I've reached the point in my life that I no longer have the patience to painstakingly fiddle with yet another badly done automation system.

Hi

Well, this all *assumes* that the Firefly boards somehow go away. That may well happen in 2 years or it may happen in 30 years. My guess is that it's longer than 2 years. There certainly are similar industrial systems that I can still get parts for decades later.

Bob

paiceman 08-10-2017 05:51 AM

Firefly systems are in a number of different RV products which are assembled by different manufacturers. They are not an Airstream exclusive and I've seen them in more and more different types of RVs. So, just a wild guess, they are not going away.

In the 2017 if it completely "failed", there are a number of items which in time could be connected to bypass the firefly and set as a switch or simply run as is: Inverter, fresh water pump, lights would be the big one, but I still think doable. The gauges I don't care about if it fails. And if I remember that is about it. But, I don't think they are going away and I don't think regardless of federal mandate Airstream will walk away after seven years. The company I was involved in still retains and or has access to parts for products we made back in the early sixties which were discontinued in the late sixties - simply for customer service.

uncle_bob 08-10-2017 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paiceman (Post 1991399)
Firefly systems are in a number of different RV products which are assembled by different manufacturers. They are not an Airstream exclusive and I've seen them in more and more different types of RVs. So, just a wild guess, they are not going away.

In the 2017 if it completely "failed", there are a number of items which in time could be connected to bypass the firefly and set as a switch or simply run as is: Inverter, fresh water pump, lights would be the big one, but I still think doable. The gauges I don't care about if it fails. And if I remember that is about it. But, I don't think they are going away and I don't think regardless of federal mandate Airstream will walk away after seven years. The company I was involved in still retains and or has access to parts for products we made back in the early sixties which were discontinued in the late sixties - simply for customer service.

Hi

The tank info comes out of the SeeLevel panel. (it's under the kitchen sink). As long as you can keep that going, you don't need the Firefly to get the data.

Unfortunately there are a lot of ways around the various government mandated support time limits. I would count more on "good will" than on those laws.

My guess is that ten years from now, you will have much nicer options than the Firefly. Rather than rebuild or replace with same/same, you would pop in the "newer and better" version. Just as you hop on YouTube now to find out all the details, I'm sure you will be able to hop on whatever we all are using then to get it all hooked up.

Bob

Captain Hank 08-10-2017 08:38 AM

AJ,

I would stay in touch with Customer Service at JC. They need to know there is a problem. If you could take your trailer to JC, the Techs. in the shop are good. Most Dealers are not up to speed on the 2017 Alde & Firefly systems. Now there is a new system for 2018. Don't give up, once the issues are solved, you will enjoy your trailer.

uncle_bob 08-10-2017 10:36 AM

Hi

If you talk to the tech's working on the trailers, most of what they have learned about the Alde has been from other RV brands that also use the system. None of the dealers have seen enough of the AS systems for all the techs to have worked on one. I've seen the same thing on cars and trucks. It's hardly unique to this situation.

Bob

ajwbarnard 09-09-2017 07:29 PM

An update: Service guy verified what we were experiencing with hot water. Using the panel under the sink, he could not get any more hot water than we did. We can get the heat more quickly (20 min 10 degree warmup) if we use propane only with all of the heaters even hot to the touch throughout the trailer. To him, this would indicate that you shouldn't need to bleed the system and he wouldn't do it. He looked at the reservoir behind the panel in the bathroom and it said it was at mid level. (We do hear it gurgle in there when the heat is on.) I had him look at the service bulletin that AS had sent me as a potential fix for hot water. He didn't think that it would fix it either. And didn't do it. He thought it needs a new mixing valve. It doesn't make sense to me. If I had lukewarm water consistently, it would make sense that I might need a new mixing valve, but it seems like the system is not calling for hot water or stops immediately after attempting to give hot water. Since the dealer does not expect to get the approval for any warranty work within the month and a half that is left our campground closes, we are looking at renting a truck and driving to Ohio to get it fixed.

paiceman 09-09-2017 09:42 PM

A service rep who advised not to bleed the system (1) really does not understand the system (2) does not wan to spend the extra five minutes it takes to open each valve and bleed the air out and close. Not sure it will fix your issue, but bleeding the system several times after initial purchase or drain and refill after two years is what got our system working.

Bud

james.mileur 09-10-2017 08:42 AM

Ajw, when you say, no key works for the outside shower, do you mean none fit, or can't turn? Some doors like that you have to press in to compress the gasket to turn the lock.

james.mileur 09-10-2017 08:49 AM

Just looked at the UK manual for Alde 3020 boiler. No clues to help. Nothing online says the current draw of the Alde Flow, but I suspect, on 30 amp service, an A/C and Flow will trip the breaker. I'd call AS everyday at 9375966111 until they provide you an Alde Flow and Alde 3020 manual. If not available online, surely, Shirley, AS didn't buy the farm again from Alde this year without documentation, training, etc, and at least got the manuals and/or can get them from Alde US. Call everyday, Daniel, Gretchen, ask for Customer Service Supervisor. Every 2018 Classic Owner should not have to drive to JC to have hot water.

ajwbarnard 09-10-2017 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by james.mileur (Post 2006671)
Ajw, when you say, no key works for the outside shower, do you mean none fit, or can't turn? Some doors like that you have to press in to compress the gasket to turn the lock.



That was the other thing on our list that did get fixed. The key would go in the lock but would not turn. The service guy did get that to work as well. I think that is what he did although we had tried that, nut must have been too timid with our pushing.)

Small things taken care of. Big things not...Alde heat and hot water recommended solution new mixing valve, no solution to heat), motor on power awning no longer shutting off (new motor), screen door not latching, main door only latching with normal force 75% of time (new door), short in overhead cabinet (new light). I am not optimistic about the Alde solutions or the prospect of a new door. The screen door clearly is not latching and probably interferes with normal operation of main door. The awning motor, maybe. But the guy didn't even know the name of the awning company.

ajwbarnard 09-10-2017 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by james.mileur (Post 2006676)
Just looked at the UK manual for Alde 3020 boiler. No clues to help. Nothing online says the current draw of the Alde Flow, but I suspect, on 30 amp service, an A/C and Flow will trip the breaker. I'd call AS everyday at 9375966111 until they provide you an Alde Flow and Alde 3020 manual. If not available online, surely, Shirley, AS didn't buy the farm again from Alde this year without documentation, training, etc, and at least got the manuals and/or can get them from Alde US. Call everyday, Daniel, Gretchen, ask for Customer Service Supervisor. Every 2018 Classic Owner should not have to drive to JC to have hot water.



Thanks for the contact info. My husband is planning on calling AS this week.

uncle_bob 09-10-2017 10:49 AM

Hi

If you still have a mixing valve on the 2018's - run through the adjustment on it. A *lot* of people seem to think that you just twist the knob and that's it. Unfortunately that's not the whole story. The knob stops way before you get to where you need to be. In the typical "as delivered" setup the water will be safe at any setting. It's not going to scald anybody. It also will be to cold for a proper shower. You need to pull the knob off of the valve. Getting to the right setting may take several full rotations. That can't happen with the knob restricting you to one partial rotation. The final setting likely will be a bit hot by the standard safety guidelines. Only you can decide if that's ok. Some service guys will not go past the "quick twist of the knob" because of the hypothetical safety risk ....

Bob

paiceman 09-10-2017 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle_bob (Post 2006744)
Hi

If you still have a mixing valve on the 2018's - run through the adjustment on it. A *lot* of people seem to think that you just twist the knob and that's it. Unfortunately that's not the whole story. The knob stops way before you get to where you need to be. In the typical "as delivered" setup the water will be safe at any setting. It's not going to scald anybody. It also will be to cold for a proper shower. You need to pull the knob off of the valve. Getting to the right setting may take several full rotations. That can't happen with the knob restricting you to one partial rotation. The final setting likely will be a bit hot by the standard safety guidelines. Only you can decide if that's ok. Some service guys will not go past the "quick twist of the knob" because of the hypothetical safety risk ....

Bob


To add to Bob's post, be careful, if one turns this knob too hard it will break internally and water will go every place. Happened to someone I was helping on the internet. I also, no longer have a scald device on our shower adjustment, I moved the set screw to fully disengage. This is counter intuitive, especially to engineers, my brother included but it works. By doing the two adjustments we have had and have about 10 minutes of nice warm water for two showers. By doing these adjustments one has an open flow of 140F hot water through the water pipes to the shower, as such one can turn the demand for hot water down at the shower handle and thereby actually conserve on the hot water being produced by the boiler. When we want it super hot for a longer period we adjust the Alde setting to produce more hot water and wait ten minutes, then my wife can wash her hair and I can then take a nice shower. Technicians and the factory will not do these adjustments I am sure for liability reasons as the water is scalding hot, which is why we don't use as much.

Works for us and some others who have adopted this system of adjustments.

Enjoy

GoinStreamin 09-10-2017 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by james.mileur (Post 2006676)
Just looked at the UK manual for Alde 3020 boiler. No clues to help. Nothing online says the current draw of the Alde Flow, but I suspect, on 30 amp service, an A/C and Flow will trip the breaker. I'd call AS everyday at 9375966111 until they provide you an Alde Flow and Alde 3020 manual. If not available online, surely, Shirley, AS didn't buy the farm again from Alde this year without documentation, training, etc, and at least got the manuals and/or can get them from Alde US. Call everyday, Daniel, Gretchen, ask for Customer Service Supervisor. Every 2018 Classic Owner should not have to drive to JC to have hot water.



We r in the same position. Took possession of our 2018 classic in mid-June and haven't had any hot water past the initial 15 seconds. Already worked the mixing valve knob and checked the glycol. Haven't attempted the scalding settings on the individual faucets. It seems ridiculous we cant get anyone from customer service to help us, even after several phone calls. Probably headed to JC - second visit, ugh!

kendrick.l.j 09-10-2017 02:35 PM

Goin, JC will not make the necessary adjustments as discussed above. JC will tell to you that it isn't possible to achieve 10 minute HOT showers but it is. I did everything that Bud and James suggested including removing the anti-scald set screw and I have lovely hot showers for me and my mom but you are certainly welcome to drive to JC, after all it is yours to do with as you choose. None of the steps were difficult but they were time consuming. None required any special tools. Just saying

uncle_bob 09-10-2017 03:00 PM

Hi

I believe you will run into the "safety" issue with JC or some dealers. You are running the hot water up into what is termed a hazardous region. It's still way colder than the hot water here in my home, but that's a different story (... long cold run to the shower in the dead of winter ...).

We started at "no hot water at all" in our 2017. Yes, that's an exaggeration, what we had could be called "really warm water". The dealer might have helped, we did the work all ourselves. In our case the magic mix valve did the whole trick. No need to mess with the anti-scald stuff. It is possible that learning a bit about how to operate and monitor the system also made a difference. All of that came from this thread.

Bob

paiceman 09-10-2017 03:11 PM

What Bob said. I do not believe JC will not set the system to give hot water, liability is too great. Settings outlined have worked on the 2017s. The 2018s are supposed to have supplemental booster, but if the controls are not adjusted to allow hot water there will be difference. Personally I would not waste my time going to a dealer or JC, they just won't, IMO, do it. I took mine there two days after getting it. Nice trip, met great people, did what they think works and is liability friendly. After I came back I did lots of research, etc. Talked to other customer service for another manufacturer who told me what to do. Their direction got me going right.

james.mileur 09-11-2017 08:39 AM

At a minimum, the Alde Flow should work to produce the safe hot water continuously, as advertised. And if they have subsumed the Alde control panel into the FireFly, that should control everything without spelunking the kitchen sink.

Call daily, if you go there, stand in front of Customer Service as long as it takes, make them call the Sheriff to remove you until you get satisfaction.

It just ain't right to pay for cold showers in a glamping rig.

GoinStreamin 09-11-2017 11:42 AM

Update...got wonderful technical support from customer service, this morning. After a couple of emails with pictures and a few turns of valves/knobs, we have hot water. Thanks to everyone for sharing their wisdom, from a set of Newbies. Now onto more discoveries! Happy trails everyone.

uncle_bob 09-11-2017 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoinStreamin (Post 2007237)
Update...got wonderful technical support from customer service, this morning. After a couple of emails with pictures and a few turns of valves/knobs, we have hot water. Thanks to everyone for sharing their wisdom, from a set of Newbies. Now onto more discoveries! Happy trails everyone.

Hi

For the sake of others who are *very* likely to be in the exact same situation: Can you give a brief summary of which knobs and what valves?

Bob

GoinStreamin 09-11-2017 02:11 PM

8 Attachment(s)
Our 2018 Classic Alde Layout - firstly, you need to be connected to shore water. Perform this if your Alde system is configured as photos display.

Anyone referencing this post, patiently work your way through the photos. The first photo shows the view under the dinette bench, facing the door, with the 3 following photos being sectional closeups of photo 1. The AS technician asked us to locate 4 black knobs/valves. Viewing closely, there are only 3 from this angle.

Photo 5 is the view from under the dinette, opening the panel facing the rear of the trailer/bathroom. The 4th valve is hidden on this side of the unit, behind the small black hose closest to the floor, NOT the larger accordion style hose. You may need to zoom the photo for some clarity.

Picture 6 shows a view from above the hoses, closest to the unit (silver box), but it does not show the valve, which is flushed against he unit. You have to stick your hand back there and feel for it. At the point where the smaller black hose winds behind the silver, metal round piece (at the top of the elongated black s shaped hose) you will find the valve. Picture 7 shows the top of the valve. You will need to be on the floor, on your side with a flashlight. This valve needs to be turned to your left. You should hear a soft swoosh of water. It took some force. 30 minutes after shower boost initiated, we had plenty of hot water.

Hoping this helps others!

Attachment 294630Attachment 294631Attachment 294632Attachment 294633Attachment 294634Attachment 294635
Attachment 294637

GoinStreamin 09-11-2017 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoinStreamin (Post 2007292)
Our 2018 Classic Alde Layout - firstly, you need to be connected to shore water. Perform this if your Alde system is configured as photos display.

Anyone referencing this post, patiently work your way through the photos. The first photo shows the view under the dinette bench, facing the door, with the 3 following photos being sectional closeups of photo 1. The AS technician asked us to locate 4 black knobs/valves. Viewing closely, there are only 3 from this angle.

Photo 5 is the view from under the dinette, opening the panel facing the rear of the trailer/bathroom. The 4th valve is hidden on this side of the unit, behind the small black hose closest to the floor, NOT the larger accordion style hose. You may need to zoom the photo for some clarity.

Picture 6 shows a view from above the hoses, closest to the unit (silver box), but it does not show the valve, which is flushed against he unit. You have to stick your hand back there and feel for it. At the point where the smaller black hose winds behind the silver, metal round piece (at the top of the elongated black s shaped hose) you will find the valve. Picture 7 shows the top of the valve. You will need to be on the floor, on your side with a flashlight. This valve needs to be turned to your left. You should hear a soft swoosh of water. It took some force. 30 minutes after shower boost initiated, we had plenty of hot water.

Hoping this helps others!

Attachment 294630Attachment 294631Attachment 294632Attachment 294633Attachment 294634Attachment 294635
Attachment 294637



Sorry, photos posted twice.

paiceman 09-11-2017 02:48 PM

Very interesting, different from 2017, but also pretty similar. Enjoy.

ajwbarnard 09-12-2017 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoinStreamin (Post 2007237)
Update...got wonderful technical support from customer service, this morning. After a couple of emails with pictures and a few turns of valves/knobs, we have hot water. Thanks to everyone for sharing their wisdom, from a set of Newbies. Now onto more discoveries! Happy trails everyone.



You are the first person that had my same system that got it to work. I am not opposed to manipulating the mixing valve and have directions from AS with pictures, but somehow it didn't seem logical that the mixing valve was not giving only 15 seconds of tepid hot water and then nothing. But if what fixed yours was adjusting the mixing valve, it gives me hope that it will work. I get all the other ideas about getting the temperature up once I have continuous not hot enough water. If I get into trouble, do you know the name of the person you talked with?

james.mileur 09-12-2017 05:28 AM

Ajw, the mixing valve is a temp sensor mechanical de-vice, so anything is possible. Have you tried turning on hot water flow, then cycle mixing valve from high stop to low stop to flush and exercise the valve? The valve manipulation discussed by Going Streaming is entirely possible, given the bypass and winter drains. Did you check outdoor shower valves shut? Btw, that door traps water and the box fills up in rain on mine. Need to cut slots in the foam gasket on lower corners.

Keep after them for that Alde Flow and Fire Fly operation.

ajwbarnard 09-12-2017 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by james.mileur (Post 2007513)
Ajw, the mixing valve is a temp sensor mechanical de-vice, so anything is possible. Have you tried turning on hot water flow, then cycle mixing valve from high stop to low stop to flush and exercise the valve? The valve manipulation discussed by Going Streaming is entirely possible, given the bypass and winter drains. Did you check outdoor shower valves shut? Btw, that door traps water and the box fills up in rain on mine. Need to cut slots in the foam gasket on lower corners.

Keep after them for that Alde Flow and Fire Fly operation.



We did get the outdoor shower door open. It appeared to be fine. If the only alternative for us is renting a truck and taking it to get fixed, (despite paying for a warranty that included on-site service to prevent having to do this), it is probably worth the effort. Although, I would rather not break it and have no water at all.

graysailor 09-12-2017 06:19 AM

At the International Rally is MI this year I did speak to several who have the 2017,18 Classic and many did have issues with the hot water system. All problems were resolved as apparently the trailers left the factory without being set up properly and some of the dealers were not quite sure what to do about it. Eventually everything was brought up to working order.

james.mileur 09-12-2017 06:24 AM

Only, another -ly word like obviously. Never, for either, IMO.

Ajw, you may do better PM-ing Going Streaming and get on the phone and let him walk you through the valve line up. Send him a $25 gift card if it works and save several hundred bucks.

james.mileur 09-12-2017 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by graysailor (Post 2007533)
At the International Rally is MI this year I did speak to several who have the 2017,18 Classic and many did have issues with the hot water system. All problems were resolved as apparently the trailers left the factory without being set up properly and some of the dealers were not quite sure what to do about it. Eventually everything was brought up to working order.

Any '18 Classic streamers there that were full up round operational? Fire Fly, Flow, and consistent heat?

Paratus 09-12-2017 07:31 AM

Going Streaming,
A bit of clarity please; are you advocating (after instruction from AS) that in addition to the mixing valve adjustment that use the "hidden" valve with a counter clockwise action to full stop? Did AS provide any detail as to what this valve functions?

How long, measured as minutes is your hot water?

Thank you

james.mileur 09-12-2017 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoinStreamin (Post 2007292)
Our 2018 Classic Alde Layout - firstly, you need to be connected to shore water.

Picture 7 shows the top of the valve. You will need to be on the floor, on your side with a flashlight. This valve needs to be turned to your left. You should hear a soft swoosh of water. It took some force.
Attachment 294637

So, you repositioned one valve in picture 7? Or do all the other valves need to be repositioned to match the photos.

I found in '17 Classic plumbing, some quarter throw valves opened to the left, some to the right. They use both kinds. Did you shut the valve in picture 7, (handle perpendicular to the tubing) or open (handle in line with tubing)?

And does the system work using the water pump or only on shore water?

paiceman 09-12-2017 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paratus (Post 2007557)
Going Streaming,
A bit of clarity please; are you advocating (after instruction from AS) that in addition to the mixing valve adjustment that use the "hidden" valve with a counter clockwise action to full stop? Did AS provide any detail as to what this valve functions?

How long, measured as minutes is your hot water?

Thank you

After AS worked on our trailer, filled the Alde which was not full and dealer did not do prep on the trailer, we still had limited heat and virtually no hot water. So, I did some digging, found a trailer mfg which had been using the system, I called their CS department and the rep graciously worked me thru the process to secure heat, by bleeding the system and how to do it along with hot water and how to make the necessary adjustments which Airstream, I am sure for liability reasons, will not publish nor will they do for you. Go to the Alde thread in this Classic area and there you will find complete details on how to do it and based on our situation as well as others who have done same, it works and works fine.

Bud

uncle_bob 09-12-2017 12:52 PM

Hi

I've had the same "hot water safety" debate on several homes we have bought. It's not at all unique to RV's or to AS. I've seen people advocate numbers below 110F as the "maximum safe" hot water temperature in mid summer. Sorry, but in mid winter in snow country .... not going to work. 105 F at the bathroom sink in the basement with no anti-scald gizmo may well be 75 F in the shower.

Depending on who you talk to and what lecture they got, coming up with info about how to twist this or that setting knob may be trivial or impossible. I've run into it with plumbers, contractors, and RV guys.

At least on our trailer, the max temperature out of any faucet without pulling the knob on the mixing valve was below 100F. Yes, that's safe. Maybe not as safe as 90F, but it's safe. (you could still get heat stroke I suppose ...).

I think it's wonderful that we are protected if we let straight hot water run on us for more than five hours. I can't say I've ever seen a hot water system anywhere that will run full bore for five hours, but we're safe. Even for me, enough beer to pass out under the hot water faucet for five hours is a lot of beer.

Simple solution: "Please be careful with our hot water, it's set to be very hot".

Be aware that over 130F you *do* get into a region where burns are a very legitimate issue. Above 140F there may not be enough time to react to a wide open valve, beer or no beer. Of course if you can get continuous 140+F hot water out of your Alde with any settings, I'd love to hear how you did it. :)

I've spent enough time with a good dose of third degree burns to know not to make light of any sort of burns. This is *not* a suggestion that getting burned is in any way fun. If nothing else wandering around bandaged up like the mummy gets you a lot of odd stares .... I have empirical data ....

Chart with all the disclaimers concerning kids and the elderly:

https://www.legionellaprevention.org/burn.html

Bob

paiceman 09-12-2017 01:07 PM

If one reads back thru most of my posts on the hot water I do advise if one travels with children or grandchildren do not make the adjustments OR make sure you or someone is there to moderate what comes out of the shower. Yes, at 145F the water is hot enough to burn, although I doubt our facet temp is that hot, the Alde boiler is. I have been able to get it higher just for fun, but don't need it. Right about 130F gives us as I've mentioned sufficient hot water, hot nor warm, for two showers.

Bud

kendrick.l.j 09-16-2017 05:15 AM

Paramus, you asked "how long of a hot shower measured in minutes." My answer is 12.
That is after I reset the mixing valve and did all the other adjustments previously described in the Much Ado Alde thread. As seen in my brief bio, I have a '17 Classic. I can tell you that JC and probably most dealers will tell you that it is not possible to have 12 minutes of hot water for showers but it is. After making all the adjustments I now need to turn the handle on the shower down just a tad at the beginning of the shower to bring in a bit of cold water.

ajwbarnard 09-16-2017 10:28 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by GoinStreamin (Post 2007293)
Sorry, photos posted twice.



I sent you a PM about figuring out pictures. We have found the hidden valve. We are trying to figure out if the picture is a before or after picture. This is what our hidden valve looks like now. We have not moved it yet.Attachment 295008

Trying to determine whether your picture is a before or after and if all the front valves should be in the position shown in pictures 1-3. Ours didn't, but they were positioned by the dealer technician when he was trying unsuccessfully to make it work.

ajwbarnard 09-16-2017 12:21 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Does anyone know by looking at this picture if this valve is open or closed? There is a white pipe under the black tub that the black valve is attached to. The handle of the valve is pointing straight up. From the schematics of the AS manualAttachment 295013 this appears to be valve #1Attachment 295014. And should be open in normal operation. Maybe if it closed and it should be open, this would prevent me from getting hot water. I did check the temps before and after on the Alde panel under the sink. The water and sanitary temperatures were in the 90's without the water heater being on. It went to 165 and 153 when the water heater was turned on. It appears to be making hot water, but never getting out to the faucet. Attachment 295015

This is what the other three valves look like. I think 2-4 are in the right positions. I am not sure about what the yellow lever is or which direction it should be in but it basically only flips in a line from left to right.

It is frustrating that I am here on a Saturday and JC is not available on Saturdays. I do not live near my AS and cannot talk to them Monday-Friday from 9-5. I need someone to talk to when normal people aren't working.

uncle_bob 09-16-2017 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajwbarnard (Post 2009349)
Does anyone know by looking at this picture if this valve is open or closed? There is a white pipe under the black tub that the black valve is attached to. The handle of the valve is pointing straight up. From the schematics of the AS manualAttachment 295013 this appears to be valve #1Attachment 295014. And should be open in normal operation. Maybe if it closed and it should be open, this would prevent me from getting hot water. I did check the temps before and after on the Alde panel under the sink. The water and sanitary temperatures were in the 90's without the water heater being on. It went to 165 and 153 when the water heater was turned on. It appears to be making hot water, but never getting out to the faucet. Attachment 295015

This is what the other three valves look like. I think 2-4 are in the right positions. I am not sure about what the yellow lever is or which direction it should be in but it basically only flips in a line from left to right.

It is frustrating that I am here on a Saturday and JC is not available on Saturdays. I do not live near my AS and cannot talk to them Monday-Friday from 9-5. I need someone to talk to when normal people aren't working.

Hi

Simple way to find out: Change the valve and see what happens.

Bob

james.mileur 09-16-2017 03:19 PM

Ajw, I'm looking at all the diagrams and pictures. The yellow lever is the safety valve, drains straight down out of the trailer, used when you have to "restore the air cushion in the domestic water heater chamber". If you download the 2017 Alde manual early in the Much Ado thread, read the part about monthly, or weekly during winter use, restoration of the air cushion.

mojoe7009 09-16-2017 03:35 PM

Water/Hot Water 2018 Classic
 
It would seem the valve in the foreground in the middle of the white pipes is in the closed position. Normally the handle protrusion would be in line with the pipe to be open. Get the Alde manual and read it. The yellow valve is the drain for the hot water tank. Straight up is open.

james.mileur 09-16-2017 03:49 PM

Ajw, your valve 1 in the picture above is shut off if the handle is perpendicular to the tubing. That looks like the cold water inlet to the water heater. I wish I could tell you which way to turn it to open, right (or left) to align the handle with the tubing, but in my trailer, I have some of each. But it needs to be open.

Red tubing is hot water out of the boiler, into the mixing valve and out to the trailer. The white tube into the bottom of the mixing valve from the safety valve is the cold mix water and loop over pressure protection.

ajwbarnard 09-16-2017 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle_bob (Post 2009423)
Hi



Simple way to find out: Change the valve and see what happens.



Bob



If only it would move at all. But maybe trying turning it either way may result in it moving. We were trying left because of the instructions from another post. But try again, we will. Just didn't want to break it if it wasn't what we were thinking it was.

james.mileur 09-16-2017 04:32 PM

It's hard to gorilla torque those winky little valves with out a tool and break them. If you have exceeded your ability to change is position in either direction, cycle all the other similar valves in the area to determine if most of them are, "lefty loosee (open), righty tighty (shut). After your survey, try open in the same direction using a pair of pliars as gently as possible. Or take cold showers two more days till Monday, and let them break it.

james.mileur 09-16-2017 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojoe7009 (Post 2009434)
It would seem the valve in the foreground in the middle of the white pipes is in the closed position. Normally the handle protrusion would be in line with the pipe to be open. Get the Alde manual and read it. The yellow valve is the drain for the hot water tank. Straight up is open.

Yes, valve #4 should be shut for normal ops. Anybody seen an Alde Manual for the 3020 units on the '18s? Yellow handle valve also normally shut, flat, unless draining the hot water boiler for air cushion.

james.mileur 09-16-2017 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoinStreamin (Post 2007237)
Update...got wonderful technical support from customer service, this morning. After a couple of emails with pictures and a few turns of valves/knobs, we have hot water. Thanks to everyone for sharing their wisdom, from a set of Newbies. Now onto more discoveries! Happy trails everyone.

Ahoy, Stream mate, did AS share any secrets about the Alde Flow operation or a manual for your Alde 3020 system? The Classic Owners Manual still refers to the Alde Manual supplied at delivery. (Just like '17, but not provided).

ajwbarnard 09-16-2017 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajwbarnard (Post 2009455)
If only it would move at all. But maybe trying turning it either way may result in it moving. We were trying left because of the instructions from another post. But try again, we will. Just didn't want to break it if it wasn't what we were thinking it was.



After waiting for the Alde to be cool enough to work around the valve is now open and we are getting a somewhat consistent flow of warm water out. Now it may just need some tweaking of the mixing valve and maybe the anti-scald and we may actually be in business here.

kendrick.l.j 09-16-2017 07:24 PM

Ajw, good to hear. As I said earlier, none of this is difficult but it is a bit time consuming. I am not a very patient person so I wanted it to work immediately. It took lots of tweaking and a lot of waiting to see if anything worked. It appears you are heading in the right direction. Keeping going.

ajwbarnard 09-16-2017 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoinStreamin (Post 2007237)
Update...got wonderful technical support from customer service, this morning. After a couple of emails with pictures and a few turns of valves/knobs, we have hot water. Thanks to everyone for sharing their wisdom, from a set of Newbies. Now onto more discoveries! Happy trails everyone.



It appears that because our problem/symptoms were similar your fix that you posted seems to have worked for us as well. We would never have found that valve without your pictures. Thanks for taking the time to share what you had learned. It is appreciated.

GoinStreamin 09-16-2017 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by james.mileur (Post 2007560)
So, you repositioned one valve in picture 7? Or do all the other valves need to be repositioned to match the photos.

I found in '17 Classic plumbing, some quarter throw valves opened to the left, some to the right. They use both kinds. Did you shut the valve in picture 7, (handle perpendicular to the tubing) or open (handle in line with tubing)?

And does the system work using the water pump or only on shore water?



We only repositioned the one valve in pix 7 - hard turn left. The pix I provided was prior to the hard turn left. We did not try the system with the water pump, only shore water.

GoinStreamin 09-16-2017 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajwbarnard (Post 2009529)
It appears that because our problem/symptoms were similar your fix that you posted seems to have worked for us as well. We would never have found that valve without your pictures. Thanks for taking the time to share what you had learned. It is appreciated.



So happy it worked for you! Happy trails!!

Paratus 09-17-2017 07:43 AM

kendrick,
Thank you for the reply; we too can log approx 10-12 minutes of a shower with a very low discipline of navy showers. I was unsure if it was due to our location (FL) and relative temperature of the "cold" water" or fully functioning system. Last week when we evacuated from Irma we were in Knoxville area and presumably the incoming city water would be cooler than FL and still had very nice showers.

kendrick.l.j 09-17-2017 12:17 PM

Paratus , so good to hear you had nice showers. You know, taking a nice hot shower isn't something we think too much about until ya can't. I know for a fact that JC had been telling Classic owners that 12 minutes shower was not possible, at least that was the case as recently as last month. Maybe the forum has allowed them the opportunity to change their mind about that. I know of at least 12 2017 Classic owners that are getting 10+ minutes of hot showers. Some got lucky and had the proper set up to start with from excellent dealers, some learned how to do it from here and another just kept tinkering until he got it (he wasn't a forum member).

uncle_bob 09-17-2017 01:31 PM

Hi

I haven't run a stop watch on the shower process. We don't have a problem with the two of us running back to back showers. I've lived in apartments where that was an issue .... Once we got it to the "not a problem" stage we moved on to more important things (like how do you get a full case of beer in the fridge ...) :)

Water temperature out of the "shore" varies a bit. The same is true of the water temperature in your fresh water tank. You *could* be rumbling down the road with 34F water in the tank. Most well water will be in the 50 to 60 degree range. Water in a big tank in the sun is very much a "who knows" kind of thing depending on the season and sun exposure.

Bob

ajwbarnard 09-17-2017 08:50 PM

My husband took his first shower in the AS today with hot water. Shaved with water from the faucet and we did dishes without heating water on the stove. One flip of a valve and all seem to be working. Too bad it took 6 weeks to figure this out. That one valve is very well hidden. And we learned that the panel under the dinette seat comes off so you can see it at all. Now on to the next thing...

james.mileur 09-18-2017 05:27 AM

Hoo yah next thing. Congrats!


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