Relapse - 1956 Sovereign of the Road

[soldiermedic]

I think that a lining of cork on the ribs before the skin goes back in will be a good thermal break. Carlos did it in his trailer, and reported the results to be outstanding.

[Dave Park]

Cork would be better than electrical tape, but it would take many hundreds of feet of the stuff. I'd like to do it if you can find the right material for the right price.

As for the glue, a couple of suggestions off-list. Any on-list suggestions for a foam, prodex and metal-safe glue that will last many years?

[VIKING]

Depending on the method you use it may not require any glue. I only used the tape they send from the Prodex company. They have single-sided mylar and double-sided tape available for their products.
For glue: Liquid Nails

Cheers,
Rich the Viking

[Dave Park]

I was considering liquid nails, but someone told me it melts the prodex.

Due to the strong sentiment in the responses about two layers, Steve has decided to go with two layers. I will install the first layer, then do the wiring, then install the second layer.

I'm still waiting for the cross-member to be made, so to keep progress happening I am removing the roof inner skin, front belly pan and get on with treating the frame.

I can't cleanly detach the front shell from the frame until the back is secured onto new floor, because the local winds often hit 30-40, and I don't like the idea of waking up with the shell in the neighbor's yard!

In good news, the front frame looks good up to about 1 foot inside the shell - that's where the heavy rust starts on the outside. I did a test cut up the A-frame from the rusted through section, and it's obvious there's some interior thinning of the walls going back a way - so I will carefully keep checking further back until I hit good steel, then get with Steve to decide on a plan.

I was so tired of the heat, I got a buzz cut. It's not helping, but now I look like an older, fatter version of Steve (apparently, my wife disagrees and says Steve looks like Jake Gyllenhaal in "Jughead" and I look like Alan Rickman.)

[robandzoe]

Dave,

The thinning of the frame is something very key to look for and re-enforce.. re-call Colin snapping his A-frame off.... check the full length.... what Colin feels happened was that the ends were not sealed completely.. water got inside the frame and rusted it from the inside out...how far back is a ways?

Rob

[Dave Park]

The rear frame is all good and thick, and very solid. The sound and note change quite sharply about 12" inside the front wall. A test cut from the hitch shows the wall is half eroded 5" back from the nose - I didn't want to cut further to keep options open. I drilled two small test holes - one just outside the shell and one 12" inside, and the metal is thicker 12" inside but still slightly less than normal thickness. This does look like the thinning you had on your frame.

There are many approaches to repairing this safely. I suspect cutting off the A-frame entirely, then welding new 2x4 box to it, and sistering reinforcing plates or a cup over the sides and bottom of the join are one way to go. Maybe weld an inner cup too, through holes drilled in the rails.

This is not an area I have a working knowledge in - all advice/photos welcome! This is one area where "common sense" could get a person in trouble.

[Lance M]

Dave and Steve,
I'd recommend that you cut the frame back where it is not rusted. Get new steel and replace it. There are many ways to splice, bolt, weld or otherwise fasten the new frame to the old frame. I think a sleeve inside the two pieces with weld access holes would do the trick. A 12 pack of Shiner at the local welding/fabricator shop might get you a professional opinion. You definitely don't want to always cringe when you are towing down the road and hit a big dip in the road. What does Dennis say??? Yeah that's right.

[bwoodtx]

IMHO, I would cut it back, drill or cut some holes in what is left at least two 18"-24" from cut, slip tube it(one inside the other), then come out with the tongue and plug weld everything and also fish plate the joint. Just MHO and what I would do if it was mine. Maybe overkill, but there would be "no worries,mate"

[robandzoe]

Originally Posted by bwoodtx

IMHO, I would cut it back, drill or cut some holes in what is left at least two 18"-24" from cut, slip tube it(one inside the other), then come out with the tongue and plug weld everything and also fish plate the joint. Just MHO and what I would do if it was mine. Maybe overkill, but there would be "no worries,mate"

This is what we did.... full length of trailer!!! With your $50,000 investment trailering down the road behind you... the last thing you want is the tongue breaking off!!

[soldiermedic]

Well folks,

I leave the Republic of Texas in a few hours to head back to Missouri where I will finish my degree in nursing. I really don't have too much to update on other thank the planning, but here goes.

The rearmost cross member has been fabricated and welded in place. A coating of Eastwood rust converter was applied to the entire frame up to where we will be replacing the A frame, and welding a stress crack at the step. Them a coat of Chassis Saver by Magnet Paints was applied over the Eastwood's converter.

BWoodTX has offered to help with the A frame repair since he is very experienced in metal welding. Bruce went to Dave's house, took measurements, and even bought supplies for the job. T A frame will be cut off 18" inside the shell. We will then slip tube 18" on each side of the weld joint. This inner tube will be plug welded on both sides through staggered holes, and fish plated after the welds are completed. Bruce tells me that if Dave has everything ready to go for him this Saturday, then he may be able to finish the entire job instead of coming back another weekend. I provided Bruce with a new 2 5/16" coupler yesterday, and 400 feet of dual jacketed 12v wire for the DC system.

Not having the organized work day along with the heat has really pushed back progress on the trailer to this point, but I hope to see more as we get moving into the cooler months. Dave was going to have the rear flooring installed yesterday, but an issue with a corroded wheel well made that impossible. Lots of little things are prohibiting progress.

Tanks have been ordered to give us 25 gallons of black water holding capacity, and 50 for gray water. Thanks to Top's Vintage Campers for setting this up for us. Since the tanks are 8", we are going to weld a 4" box under the frame area containing the three tanks out of 1/8 inch steel. This can be skinned flat since the tanks will be inside of it. The outriggers will be skinned to the edge of this box.

Once I get some pictures, I will post them.

Steve

[bredlo]

Originally Posted by Dave Park

I could make panels like these that can fit in the windows, OUTSIDE the screen. You close the windows and they'd be held in place. They just need a little tab of fabric on them, so it's easy to pull them out when it comes out of storage, or temps are cooler. They wouldn't need the wood backing then, just a little fabric trim around the edge. The screws would hold them in place.

If you like.

Speaking of cooling things down... since you're spending enough time to make it worth the effort, I wonder if it'd be worthwhile to build a little chimney. I know, it came with one

This would be a temporary "attic fan", to use during renovation. Maybe 3 feet or so of that square AC duct material would shield you from direct sunlight, and a little box fan on top to exhaust the hot air inside could get a bit of a breeze going, albeit a hot one.

Now that I'm thinking about it, what I'm probably suggesting is tantamount to a life-size hairdryer, with you inside.
Oh well.

[slowmover]

Now that I'm thinking about it, what I'm probably suggesting is tantamount to a life-size hairdryer, with you inside.
Oh well.

Convection oven when the temps stay above 90F

[Dave Park]

The average day time temperature here the last 30 days, in the shade, was 106F - in full sun, in the trailer, it's been around 135-145F typically. That's why I have on many days done as little as two or three hours in the morning. The August average temp is lining up to be the same, but the Sept average temp is aiming to be about 15F lower.

I started putting the floor in, which involved a lot of rework of the wheel covers due to rust and poor design. However, it uncovered a problem:

The original design had the floor resting on insulation on the frame, which did a great job of evening out the original weld ridges. Without the insulation, the floor will not lay flat and puts undue stress on everything.

Also, we changed from 5/8" to 3/4" flooring, and the additional 1/8" gives a lot of extra rigidity. Originally there were seven elevator bolts on each row, and we decided to reduce this to five with the extra strength of the wood. However, there were also two standard bolts in the c-channel. Steve had suggested I should use the elevator bolts in the c-channel, but replacing nine combined bolts with just five, and elevator bolts not having the strongest heads (two have separated already) I made the executive decision to run to my local trade supply store. I got 50 stainless steel nuts, bolts and washer sets for $26 - 2c less each than zinc plated. They also sell elevator bolts for less than VTS - 31c each. I feel a lot more confident about the strength of the shell-floor-frame attachments with these bolts - knowing how vital that is to the safety and longevity of the trailer.

Due to a couple of frame problems, I am grateful for the advice and guidance of bwoodtx, who will oversee the removal of the old a-frame and the welding on of a new one. The next three days are devoted to preparing for that by accurately cutting off the old a-frame, and drilling holes to strengthen the welds. He'll come up on Saturday and we'll work on the new a-frame and coupler. This will then leave me free to put down the floor if I can solve the leveling problem.

For the leveling problem... Steve bought a large box of cork strips as rib insulation, and maybe these would be suitable to pad out the frame and bury the welds a bit? I'm wary though - the cork may cause different problems in future (like hold water)...

So, all in all, with a very unproductive week last week, and a slow start to this week, it looks like I have a busy few days and a leap forward.

One of the things I was taught early on was estimate the time you think it will take and double it. I'm so glad I did that. I still have seven weeks of wiggle room.

Right now, some clecos would be handy in getting some things back together... like lining up the wheel covers with the shell. Hunting around on eBay for a bargain on those and a 3X riveter.

Finally, the way AS handled the wheel cover floor join behind the wheels was not the best. They used galvanized wheel covers, a steel frame, and aluminum sheet to cover the gap. Bare metal contact everywhere. Corrosion everywhere, and an invite for water to enter. It ate the aluminum, including a large part of the c-channel and frame cross-pieces behind the skin - thankfully the rib right there is ok. I have spent many hours cutting and folding aluminum to make a much better fit cover for that gap, and coated it with multiple layers of chassis saver so there'll be no metal to metal contact. I also made new c channel to repair that area and bring some of the strength back.

I can't wait for cooler temperatures.

[VIKING]

Dave, my welds were also pretty high in some places. I just set the floor, bolted it in place, and then found the high spots using a straight-edge. I gave each high spot a good whack with a #3 hand sledgehammer.
I wouldn't put anything between the flooring and the frame. It's asking for trouble.

Rich the Viking

[Dave Park]

Originally Posted by VIKING

I wouldn't put anything between the flooring and the frame. It's asking for trouble.

But that's how Airstream made them, and still does... It's one of the few things that doesn't consistently go wrong with Airstreams, especially now they've replaced fiber glass insulation with radiant barrier.

[nmbosa]

Dave, Airstream's original method of installing the fiberglass insulation over the frame is often cited as one of the reasons so many frames have rusted badly. Once fiberglass insulation gets wet, it holds moisture against the frame.

To provide a vapor barrier less likely to hold water, between the steel frame and the plywood subfloor, we used foam that is typically used between a sill plate and concreate foundation. Check out Ryan's blog entry on laying the deck.

I've also recently seen someone install Prodex or Reflectex to the entire underside of a floor. Check out Dacia's recent blog entry - Elvis Has the Floor. I'm not sure how this would perform, but the folks working on Dacia's trailer are doing very nice work and seem to know these trailers well.

I had similar problems with my wheel wells to what you describe and wish I had just had new ones fabricated. You might want to consider looking into that. I've heard you can find sheet metal fabricators that can produce a nice new set of wheel wells for a decent price depending on the part of the country you are located. Not sure what these might cost you in Texas, but could well be worth it.

Sorry to hear about the hot weather delays. That can be annoying. Be careful in that heat and drink lots of water. We don't want to find you passed out from heat stroke on the floor of that thing.

Norm

[Frank's Trailer Works]

EdgeStar Extreme Cool 12,000 BTU Portable Air Conditioner

Two would be a great investment in tooling. They also could be concealed into the project.

[Dave Park]

I do have a 600 sq ft roll of prodex, and there will be some thin 2" offcuts that would be ideal for this. However, we're already cutting it very fine on the amount of Prodex...

Someone asked off-forum why I didn't just grind down the welds... because they welded across the top of the crossmember, so if I ground down the welds I'd greatly weaken the joins, so I'd have to re-weld every crossmember from the inside. Also, with the weld repairs, there will be raised sections anyway.

As for the wicking effect - ABSOLUTELY. When I removed the insulation, it had crusts of rust on it, when the sidewalls right there were still painted. I can't imagine this being a problem with prodex or other closed cell foam products...

[Goal15]

Dave

if moisture absorption is the issue, wonder if you could put waterseal on the cork to minimize the absorption.

looks like there have been some good alternative suggestions offered but thought i would just throw this one if for what it's worth.

[Dave Park]

I just suggested cork as an idea because we have a surplus of cork on the way, and limited supplies of prodex...