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Old 12-15-2020, 04:16 AM   #41
'15 Flying Loud 20' Bambi
 
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2014 16' Sport
2015 20' Flying Cloud
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small city outside a big one , south of most, north of some
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So where I am TODAY, and this may change...

The wife really wants to go the extra 11K to hit the 25.

My concerns are 90% in the drivability range, parking, towing and storage as well as limiting myself on campsites. The dual ac is probably a must. With the refer situation the solar is a must. I think if I go that way we would do the Queen east west because we sleep in a queen at home and if I have a road-mansion I want that. Plus the quartz heater we use that would keep us warm as toast with the 23 (works almost too good in the current 20) but probably won't cut it in the huge beast.

To be honest I almost dread that option. I camp to camp. But it is what it is. On rainy days we find local breweries, drive around to historic spots, museums etc. While we do lounge in the camper in the evening if the skeeters are annoying it is usually to watch a DVD then go to bed. The 23 with twins could easily be made loungeable with the 9 million throw pillows AS seems to stuff in everything.

The main concern of the 23 is the dinette. Never liked that design myself and the comments here further give me trepidation on that point. And no view out the back (but the 20 I have ain't much better). What STILL floats my boat on the 23 is I feel it would be no different in driving (probably better with the camera) than my 20. Quick in and out, easy to store. Easier to wax and care for than the 25. And I get virtually no help there. And I'm sure my 81K miles truck would work with it for years to come.
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Old 12-15-2020, 04:49 AM   #42
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Driftless Area , Wisconsin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renderit View Post
The wife really wants to go the extra 11K to hit the 25.

...What STILL floats my boat on the 23 is I feel it would be no different in driving (probably better with the camera) than my 20. Quick in and out, easy to store....

And I'm sure my 81K miles truck would work with it for years to come.
It very much sounds to me like you have to convince yourself the 25 will work (on a variety of levels) and that the 23 is more of a known quantity coming from the 20. I also had the same dilemma when I purchased my AS—go 25 or 27. It’s a little more cut-and-dried for me, as we are a family of 4 that was embarking on an 80-day cross country trip. Bigger was somewhat necessary.

For what it’s worth, I think you’re right on your “pros” for the 23 and on your concerns for the 25. When evaluating models to purchase, as I said earlier, 25 was a tipping point on many fronts—maneuverability, tow vehicle selection, campsite selection, payload...but also domestic comforts for multiple people (e.g. separate shower/bath), larger tanks, more storage and to some extent space customization possibilities, width, etc. The difference between the 25 and 27 is far smaller than that between the 23 and 25 I think.

I guess my only feedback on your “gut feel” are these points:
  • decide whether you want a modest extension of your current Airstream experience or whether you want to try an Airstream experience with more/different possibilities (notice I’m not saying better—that’s up to you). The 23 might feel more like camping and the 25 more like a towable studio apartment—if you’re moving to WY and spending more time “out there” maybe the latter isn’t a bad thing?
  • if you do end up going with the 25, consider the twins layout. If you “aren’t spooners” (your words), it’s a much better use of space. Presumably you can use your pickup bed for the bodies...
  • You’re many months out from seeing a trailer you order anyway. See if you can rent a 25 for a bit. Assuming you don’t get one with massive “rental” issues (or can look past them), that could make up your minds definitively. It’s hard for others to offer advice on a topic that is so contingent on your personal preferences.
  • Look into how people have customized their 23 and determine if those customizations will suit your purposes. You might get exactly what you want out of a 23 for less than the cost difference between a 23 and a 25, with the caveat that then you would have a highly customized trailer that may or may not be difficult to offload when you want a bigger trailer .

I’ll say that I went with a larger trailer—a little daunting for a complete RV newbie—and think it was absolutely perfect for us (see my Traveling with Tatay thread), but that’s not a universal truth and bigger is, in fact, more of everything (which isn’t always great). When people ask me which trailer to get my $0.02 quick response is TV constraints/concerns, more than 2 people, or trips longer than long weekends—look at 25 or up.
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Old 12-15-2020, 05:09 AM   #43
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2021 25' International
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renderit View Post
So where I am TODAY, and this may change...

The wife really wants to go the extra 11K to hit the 25.

My concerns are 90% in the drivability range, parking, towing and storage as well as limiting myself on campsites. The dual ac is probably a must. With the refer situation the solar is a must. I think if I go that way we would do the Queen east west because we sleep in a queen at home and if I have a road-mansion I want that. Plus the quartz heater we use that would keep us warm as toast with the 23 (works almost too good in the current 20) but probably won't cut it in the huge beast.

To be honest I almost dread that option. I camp to camp. But it is what it is. On rainy days we find local breweries, drive around to historic spots, museums etc. While we do lounge in the camper in the evening if the skeeters are annoying it is usually to watch a DVD then go to bed. The 23 with twins could easily be made loungeable with the 9 million throw pillows AS seems to stuff in everything.

The main concern of the 23 is the dinette. Never liked that design myself and the comments here further give me trepidation on that point. And no view out the back (but the 20 I have ain't much better). What STILL floats my boat on the 23 is I feel it would be no different in driving (probably better with the camera) than my 20. Quick in and out, easy to store. Easier to wax and care for than the 25. And I get virtually no help there. And I'm sure my 81K miles truck would work with it for years to come.
I know from your previous comments you really like the Globetrotter, and that's fine, its a great trailer, especially for a 23'. Had we gone the 23' route, that's what we most likely would have bought. But if you are seriously considering a 25' then you should look at the International. More options in a 25' as far as floor plans and you still get the dual AC/LP fridge. Even if you get solar I think the dual is a plus - case in point - Our brand new trailer's fridge quit working on AC - bad heating element(&^%$#@) but, it still worked on LP thus saving the day on our maiden camping trip. Kept me from having to pack stuff in coolers to get home. Just a thought. The Int. still has plenty of bling, just not quite as much as the GT. And...the best part to me was I was able to get the 25' Int. for what I would have paid for the 23' GT. But that was my situation, with my dealer etc.
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Old 12-15-2020, 06:01 AM   #44
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Just my opinion and means nothing.

A 1/2 ton crew cab truck is an SUV not a pickup. All its really good for is running to Wal-Mart and Lowes.
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Old 12-15-2020, 06:16 AM   #45
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Just my opinion and means nothing.

A 1/2 ton crew cab truck is an SUV not a pickup. All its really good for is running to Wal-Mart and Lowes.
Correct..... in that this opinion does mean nothing because there are plenty of people on this forum and across the RV world in general that tow all sorts of trailers ,RVís and otherwise ,with 1/2 ton trucks and do just fine. Properly equipped and with the proper hitch equipment they are effective tow vehicles.
I really donít even understand what relevance that comment even has to this thread.
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Old 12-15-2020, 06:28 AM   #46
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Iíll make one more comment then Iím done, out of respect for renderit and his original post but you should know that a 1/2 ton is actually the PREFERRED TV for most owners on this forum for 23í and under trailers.
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Old 12-15-2020, 06:32 AM   #47
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Yeah, that was a very strange comment by Mr. D. I'm not sure what point he was trying to make with a post like that.
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Old 12-15-2020, 06:36 AM   #48
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The OP has expressed concern about the towing parameters of a 25, given his 1/2 ton TV. I think it is good that he is exploring that. I recounted my experience, but, I assumed that my existing 1/2 ton would be just fine for towing my 25 when I bought the trailer. After all, my half ton was fine for pulling boats, trips to Lowe's and the dump. I don't think the debates about 1/2 vs 3/4 were as vigorous back in 2012-2013, when I was trying to become educated. I don't doubt that a 1/2 ton would be superb with a lighter trailer, but as I have said, my own experience is with a fully loaded 25FB and a TV bed full of stuff, the 3/4 ton provides a superior towing experience. That may be a kinder and gentler way saying what the above poster said....
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Old 12-15-2020, 07:21 AM   #49
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Evergreen , Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renderit View Post
So where I am TODAY, and this may change...

The wife really wants to go the extra 11K to hit the 25.

My concerns are 90% in the drivability range, parking, towing and storage as well as limiting myself on campsites. The dual ac is probably a must. With the refer situation the solar is a must. I think if I go that way we would do the Queen east west because we sleep in a queen at home and if I have a road-mansion I want that. Plus the quartz heater we use that would keep us warm as toast with the 23 (works almost too good in the current 20) but probably won't cut it in the huge beast.

To be honest I almost dread that option. I camp to camp. But it is what it is. On rainy days we find local breweries, drive around to historic spots, museums etc. While we do lounge in the camper in the evening if the skeeters are annoying it is usually to watch a DVD then go to bed. The 23 with twins could easily be made loungeable with the 9 million throw pillows AS seems to stuff in everything.

The main concern of the 23 is the dinette. Never liked that design myself and the comments here further give me trepidation on that point. And no view out the back (but the 20 I have ain't much better). What STILL floats my boat on the 23 is I feel it would be no different in driving (probably better with the camera) than my 20. Quick in and out, easy to store. Easier to wax and care for than the 25. And I get virtually no help there. And I'm sure my 81K miles truck would work with it for years to come.
Happy wife, happy life. I've heard this saying many times, and it seems to be true in my experience.

I think you've clearly identified the pros and cons of each trailer. There's no choice here that is absolutely perfect, so all you can do is decide what to prioritize and make the choice that checks the most boxes. If you end up with the 25 footer, I'm sure you'll quickly get used to towing and parking it.
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Old 12-15-2020, 11:13 AM   #50
'15 Flying Loud 20' Bambi
 
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2014 16' Sport
2015 20' Flying Cloud
2021 25' Globetrotter
small city outside a big one , south of most, north of some
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 307
You all are most helpful and thanks.

I guess one of my biggest trepidations is the move from the narrow body format (which I am used to) to the wide bodies.

I looked around at 3/4 ton and minus the crew cab they seem a bit more palatable price wise. Though I am sure they up the ante in repairs and costs.

I think my wife's concern is we might like the 25 better later and does not want to go through this again. I am more like 'can you really see me pulling a 25 back in the boonies in Wyoming?'.

The 25 is SO much more trailer in almost every aspect. Good and bad.

I keep hearing about International (the frau don't like the upper cabinets at all) and the FC. The current FC we have has the curved cabinet doors which we both love. The GT goes to the lights and mirrors (which could be added). There are lots of things we like on the GT's we looked at last year where the FC seemed to have cheapened up a bit over what we have. We will look over the stuff again, but the GT will be where SHE wants to be I'm sure.

I heard the refer's in ALL of them are now the 12v/120v.
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Old 12-15-2020, 11:42 AM   #51
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If you're considering the larger 25 at all, and looks like you very much are, that's going to be the right trailer for you. The progression with almost all owners is as their comfort level with trailering and maneuvering increases, they tend to upsize their trailers. The 23 will be such an incremental upgrade, I believe you'll quickly find yourself looking at the 25 again.
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Old 12-15-2020, 11:55 AM   #52
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My 2 cents. I think you should choose the 25 as it think it is a better tool for your needs.

We have owned a 22 sport, 25 Rear Bed Twin FC 30 amp, and 27 Front Bed Twin FC 50 amp.

I think unless you expect to be camped often in the South (hot over 90 and also humid) that the 30 amp is sufficient. Particularly as I believe you get 2 fantastic fans vs only 1 with the dual AC/50 amp in the 25.

I think the 25 is vastly preferable over the 23. For all of the reasons Moosetags mentioned, as well as physical division of space with the separate rest area, bathroom area, and kitchen area in the 25. This makes it much more enjoyable for 1 person to nap, or get up early and not disturb the other or be in the way.

Imagine how impossible it would be to get up first in the 23 and make a quick light breakfast without disturbing your sleeping partner. The kitchen is practically in the bedroom.

Definitely get the awnings all around, and solar if you think you would use it. For my money, getting a Yeti 45 and Yeti 105 is a much better investment than adding solar just to run a refrigerator. Especially as you already have the dual generators.

Yes
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Old 12-15-2020, 06:26 PM   #53
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I posted this above but Iíll say again because Iím sure renderit has been overwhelmed with info. I have a brand new 2021 International and it came with a LP/AC refrigerator. So that option is still out there. I also have 30 amp 1 AC. Verdict still out on that but like the fact that I donít have to worry about campsites not having 50 amp available
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Old 12-15-2020, 08:27 PM   #54
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Addressing the uncomfortable dinette. My 8yr old was complaining about the seams in the cushions after sleeping in them for a week. ...canít blame her. We purchased the 3Ē thick memory foam mattress toppers made for a twin from Bed Bath & beyond. HUGE difference!!! We ended up purchasing the queen to cover the master bed.
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Old 12-16-2020, 04:12 AM   #55
'15 Flying Loud 20' Bambi
 
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2014 16' Sport
2015 20' Flying Cloud
2021 25' Globetrotter
small city outside a big one , south of most, north of some
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 307
Quick questions and a couple of complaints:

Fans:

23 have any in the bath? I am hearing not, but don't know if that is pertaining to the GT or not.

25? Shower fan and or toilet room fan?

Complaint:

In these days of the COVIDS I sure wish the AS Mothership would pull it's head out and post pictures of EVERYTHING for each floorplan. I want pictures of EACH storage area (with dimensions would even be better) and access hatch, where stuff is located for electrical, plumbing, etc. As you can't find them on a lot as usual and you are asking SO much for these units, a library of output would be most welcome.

Everybody has a ton of questions. Nobody gets answers. On a forum like this you have to filter out comments which are helpful, but may or may not actually pertain to the unit or floor plan you are looking to buy!

More info on my current unit as it may help shape answers:

The 2015 FC 20' we have has a great fan in the bath. The stool was great, if you are 6-10"... I built a removable raised floor.

The shower is very acceptable back in the corner.

The bed is a double advertised as a queen.

We got the oven and carry a small micro (in the shower while driving).

We had a 16 Sport. Bath was unusable but actually liked the dinette better and it made into a good sized double. The current is a single at best.

Never had a camper with "areas" other than the crapper, so we are not as 'attuned' to that. If the missus gets up earlier it does not bother me on account of if I don't have my hearing aids in I could park on the end of a runway without bothering me. After 40 years of marriage and her shouting at me I think her hearing ain't so much either...

I also thank EVERY ONE OF YOU which has piped up! You are helping greatly.
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Old 12-16-2020, 04:20 AM   #56
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My 25 has a fan in the shower and another fan in the toilet room. Both do a very fine job
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Old 12-16-2020, 04:44 AM   #57
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ditto that on our 25'. And 1 fantastic fan in the living area and one in the bedroom.
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Old 12-16-2020, 04:52 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis C View Post
Yeah, that was a very strange comment by Mr. D. I'm not sure what point he was trying to make with a post like that.
My comment was not directed at towing an Airstream and more about towing in general. All too often on RV forums be it TC, 5er or trailers you run across those who don't see the big picture when it comes to a tow vehicle. It's all about GCWR.

New trucks today have a much higher GCWR than trucks of the past and a 1500 whatever will do fine towing an Airstream up to 25'. Some do better than others but as a general rule yes it will run and stop and get you from point A to point B.

Having said that there is a reason trucks are rated at 1500/2500/3500 and it's not so much about increased towing capacity but more importantly about stopping that increased towing capacity.

People tend to overlook the braking needed to stop at the bottom of that long grade they just came down when they used up their brakes halfway down. Yes an extreme example but it does happen everyday, someone towing more than their tow vehicle can safely stop.

Pay attention to GCWR and don't get hung up on max trailering numbers. I'm not trying to be the weight police, be safe out there.
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Old 12-16-2020, 05:30 AM   #59
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You Can Use Any Campsite

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bcc75 View Post
but like the fact that I donít have to worry about campsites not having 50 amp available
With the correct adaptors (which are inexpensive) I use 15 amp to 50 amp with my 50 amp system. You just need to be aware of what you can use and what you can not. With a 15, I use my refrigerator and lights and hopefully charge my batteries a little in between. On a 30 amp, I can still use 1 A/C. With a 50 amp, I still have to be careful not use our coffee maker and a hair dryer on the same circuit.
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Old 12-16-2020, 05:41 AM   #60
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Evergreen , Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr._D View Post
My comment was not directed at towing an Airstream and more about towing in general. All too often on RV forums be it TC, 5er or trailers you run across those who don't see the big picture when it comes to a tow vehicle. It's all about GCWR.

New trucks today have a much higher GCWR than trucks of the past and a 1500 whatever will do fine towing an Airstream up to 25'. Some do better than others but as a general rule yes it will run and stop and get you from point A to point B.

Having said that there is a reason trucks are rated at 1500/2500/3500 and it's not so much about increased towing capacity but more importantly about stopping that increased towing capacity.

People tend to overlook the braking needed to stop at the bottom of that long grade they just came down when they used up their brakes halfway down. Yes an extreme example but it does happen everyday, someone towing more than their tow vehicle can safely stop.

Pay attention to GCWR and don't get hung up on max trailering numbers. I'm not trying to be the weight police, be safe out there.
I agree with your comments. I see many people towing Airstreams and other trailers with a 1/2 ton truck when they really need a 3/4 ton truck or bigger. For a trailer under 25 feet, a 1/2 ton truck does very well. I assure you that I use my truck for more than trips to Walmart! I actually hate Walmart. I try not to go there.
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