HELP! 23 vs 25 decision pending.

[renderit]

Originally Posted by moosetags

We have a long history of camping in a 25FB and a 23FB. We have owned both over the past 15 years. We started with a 2005 Safari 25FB Queen. The Queen was the only available bed configuration at the time. This was Old Lucy. We camped in her for eight years (1,325 nights/114,000 miles). Late in 2013, we decided that downsizing might be a good idea. We traded Old Lucy in on a very lightly used 2012 Flying Cloud 23FB Queen (again the only bed configuration available at that time), and named her Little Lucy. We camped and traveled in Little Lucy for about a year (148 nights/15,000 miles). In October of 2014, we decided that a 25FB better fit our camping style. We traded little Lucy in on a brand new 2015 Flying Cloud 25FB Twin, which we call New Lucy. We have been camping in New Lucy for the past six years (584 nights/62,500 miles).

We have enjoyed all of our Airstream camping experiences immensely. Here is our assessment of the 23FB vs. the 25FB. The 23FB is 6" narrower than the 25FB. That doesn't sound like much, but that 6" is out the center aisle as all of the interior components are the same size. Accordingly, the interior does not feel as spacious. We much preferred the two door larger refrigerator/freezer in the 25FB. We also prefer the shower in the 25FB that is separate from the bathroom. Probably the biggest issue for us was that the black tank in the 23FB is less than half the size of the one in the 25FB. The black tank in the 25FB can last us a week between dumps. The 23FB was only good for two to three days.

As far as the rig size maneuverability, with both the 23 and the 25 we have never had any issues getting into a gas station or McDonald's. As far as your half ton tow vehicle goes, it should be OK, depending on your use.

Whatever you choose, we are sure that you will enjoy it.

Brian

I am the opposite way on the extra 6 inches width. As I have never had it on the 2 AS I have owned I am more concerned about the gas mileage hit and the view than the extra interior room (just because I am not used to it I am sure)!

The refer sizes in the 23GT and the 25GT are the same, so that is a non-issue now. And they are both separate freezer models.

Shower seems to be a lot larger on the 23. I am not tall (but slightly wider than optimal).

How's the knee in the toilet area work on the 25? Pics look like it is a pain.

[lsbrodsky]

What's your height? On my 25, the toilet is slightly angled away from the counter so the body/knees don't have anything to bang on. The facing wall is not an issue either. The toilet area is not big enough for getting dressed, but works fine for using the toilet, the sink, shaving, etc. On mine there is an accordion door between the living area and bath area that gives plenty of privacy for getting dressed in the hallway. We have found that just opening the toilet area door accomplishes the same thing.
Larry

[renderit]

Originally Posted by lsbrodsky

The trailer brakes are fine, as proven by how well they work with my 2500. The truck brakes on the 1500 were just not as good as they are on the 2500. It is not that I could not stop, but I needed more distance with the 1500. My point about cruise is that there was a lot more downshifting going on with the 1500. That may not be as much of an issue with current 10 speed transmissions. But, I do use cruise all of the time towing, although obviously not on grades of any significance. It works fine and contributes to less fatigue at the end of the day.
Larry

Originally Posted by nryn

I don’t have as much experience as some who have already chimed in, but I did a lot of research on these topics (for me, F-150/F-250 and 25 vs 27 as we’re a family of 4). Here’s where I netted out on the truck issue:

The 25’ Airstream is the decision line for towing vehicles. It seems to be the point in the lineup not only where the loaded trailer weight goes way up, but also the tongue weight. Loaded trailer weight is not an issue for the towing capacity on most vehicles, including many SUVs.

This issue is tongue weight and that it counts towards payload. This is where a lot of towing vehicles, including 1/2 ton trucks, get crossed off the list when going by the numbers. The more well-appointed your truck, the less payload it will have. I do not recall what Airstream’s spec sheet tongue weight is for a 25’ foot, but the number is bogus.

As I recall, there are many folks towing a 25/27’ trailer on a half-ton truck. Not all, but many tend to observe the following practices:

• TV payload is kept low. This usually means two people, minimal stuff in the bed.
• Various games are played moving things in and out of the trailer or placing them at specific points in the trailer to reduce weight on the TV rear axle.
• Fluid tanks and propane are watched carefully.
• Getting up inclines is done at speeds lower than expected and getting down inclines with brake use higher than desired.

We went with a 27’ trailer (GT) and a 3/4 ton truck (F-250). Family of 4, modest but not minimal amount of stuff including bikes and camping gear. Went from Illinois to Alaska last year. No issues towing whatsoever. Search for the threads I started “Help me spec a new F-150” and “Help me spec a new F-250” if you’re interested.

My suggestion: if you’re leaning towards the 25, I’d say go ahead and get it and try it with your TV. It’ll work—you’ll know within a few trips whether it will do the job for you comfortably. Just factor a potential truck upgrade into your numbers and be pleasantly surprised if you don’t need to. If your constraint is your current vehicle, then the 23’ is a very safe bet. I’d agree with anyone who said that a half-ton is a better daily driver—in most areas this is 100% true. I really wanted a half-ton. Went with a 3/4 ton, which turned out to not only be a great decision for the Airstream, but it makes for an incredible farm truck!

This is the MEAT of my concern! Thank you VERY much for this.

[matthewk]

Bought a new 23. 90 days later bought a new 25. The 23 was great until we had to spend a rainy day inside. The 25 provides so much more space.

[renderit]

Originally Posted by lsbrodsky

What's your height? On my 25, the toilet is slightly angled away from the counter so the body/knees don't have anything to bang on. The facing wall is not an issue either. The toilet area is not big enough for getting dressed, but works fine for using the toilet, the sink, shaving, etc. On mine there is an accordion door between the living area and bath area that gives plenty of privacy for getting dressed in the hallway. We have found that just opening the toilet area door accomplishes the same thing.
Larry

Height no problem. It's the width. But if your knees are good and don't hit the door I should be fine. I am 5-6 as is the boss.

[Dennis C]

I think you’re getting some good advice in this thread. I have a few more comments about the 23FB that you may find helpful. It is very easy to make the bed in the 23. You have access to three sides, and that really helps. You can get in and out of bed without climbing over each other. The main limiting factor is the overhead lockers in the bedroom. When you’re on the side of the bed closest to the front windows, headroom is limited.

Once of the downsides of the queen bed configuration is the fact that there’s only one nightstand, on the front window side. My wife and I like to have our morning coffee in bed, and there’s no place to set my cup. I made a small insert that sits in one of the drawers on my side of the bed, giving me a temporary nightstand in the mornings.

The 30A service heats and cools the 23 very efficiently. I have no complaints with the system. Most of the campgrounds where we camp offer only 30A service, or no electrical service at all. For my camping style, 50A service wouldn’t offer much benefit.

While you can swing out the television and watch by converting the dinette to a lounge, this isn’t ideal. You’d both need to sit on one side to see the television. My wife and I don’t watch television very much when camping, but we watch from bed when we do. We use the lounge more for listening to music, having a drink, etc.

I have an aftermarket solar system on my 23. It has two 90W panels mounted on the roof, a Zamp solar controller, and upgraded AGM batteries. It works very well if the trailer is parked in direct sunlight. If not, it’s a little bit weak. I’m probably going to add two more 90W panels before camping season starts again, bringing me up to 360W total.

I’m a bit surprised about the comments about people having issues with the size of the tanks on the 23. This has never been an issue for us, even with 5 days of boondocking. I’d say the biggest limiting factor is the gray tank, which is 39 gallons. If you’re careful about water usage, then this isn’t a big deal. We typically use paper plates or we wash dishes in a bucket in the sink and avoid running excess water into the gray tank.

I’ve already given you my thoughts on towing, and others have added their wisdom. To put it in perspective, I tow with a GMC Denali 1500 crew cab, 4x4. The truck is fairly heavily optioned, so the payload capacity is 1,479 lbs. We have a hard, rolling tonneau cover that weighs 104 lbs. When our truck is loaded with people, dog, gear, Honda 2200 generator, WDH, etc., plus the hitch weight, we are within 100 lbs. of the payload limit. We camp light too - no bicycles, kayaks, etc. There’s no way we could tow a 25 and stay within recommended limits for our truck. When loaded for camping, our rig tows nicely and gets respectable mileage. On flat roads with light winds, we get close to 15 mpg. Towing uphill in heavy winds is another matter.

Again, I really think a decision like this comes down to how you like to camp. If you like to spend time inside the camper lounging and watching television, then you will likely prefer the 25. It’s much more spacious. If you camp with more than two adults, then you’ll likely prefer the 25. We like to be sitting outside, either by the campfire or under the awning, listening to music and talking. The 23 works very well for us.

Looking forward to hearing what you decide.

[Dennis C]

EDIT: I quoted the wrong number on the gray tank. It's 30 gallons. The fresh water tank is 39 gallons.

[lsbrodsky]

Originally Posted by renderit

Height no problem. It's the width. But if your knees are good and don't hit the door I should be fine. I am 5-6 as is the boss.

I am also 5'6" so the 25 will be no problem for you unless you both try to fit in the bathroom....there are better places for that.
Larry

[Turbulence]

We've had a 23fb for a year now - and if we had bought the 25 originally, we wouldn't be pining for a 27 right now.

As far as the 23fb goes, making up the bed is a pain - especially when you are tired from a long day. It's not a deal breaker though.

The U shaped dinette is not comfortable. We initially thought we'd use it as a day bed, but quickly found that we needed the table to prepare meals. We converted it to a regular dinette (which can be switched back) - and we are much happier. There's only 2 of us, so an "extra" seating position isn't really a problem.

The 27 seems to have the best of both worlds.

[matthewk]

Originally Posted by renderit

I am the opposite way on the extra 6 inches width. As I have never had it on the 2 AS I have owned I am more concerned about the gas mileage hit and the view than the extra interior room (just because I am not used to it I am sure)!

The refer sizes in the 23GT and the 25GT are the same, so that is a non-issue now. And they are both separate freezer models.

Shower seems to be a lot larger on the 23. I am not tall (but slightly wider than optimal).

How's the knee in the toilet area work on the 25? Pics look like it is a pain.

The Shower on the 23 has more volume but at 6'3" I am more comfortable with the shower on the 25 since only once side has the slope rather than being in the corner with two sloping sides.

The toilet in the 25 is pretty good lots of legroom, nothing compares to the 23 (except the 33). That said the 23 toilet is much taller, the Wife's feet don't hit the floor.

[Rgentum]

Best Airstream advice ever received:

From a long-time Airstream executive:

• If you want twin beds, get a 25
• If you want a queen bed, get a 27.

[moosetags]

Originally Posted by matthewk

The Shower on the 23 has more volume but at 6'3" I am more comfortable with the shower on the 25 since only once side has the slope rather than being in the corner with two sloping sides.

The toilet in the 25 is pretty good lots of legroom, nothing compares to the 23 (except the 33). That said the 23 toilet is much taller, the Wife's feet don't hit the floor.

The shower in our 2012 23FB was OK, but not as nice as the the 25FB shower. The biggest downside to the 23FB shower was that it did not have an exhaust fan as the 25 had. I found this to be a major inconvenience as a hot shower would leave the entire bathroom covered in condensation.

Yes, the 23FB toilet was quite high. I was OK with it, but SuEllyn needed to use a small foot stool to make the toilet comfortable. The 18 gallon black tank just didn't cut it for our camping style.

Brian

[Toasterlife]

How do you plan to use the trailer? commercial parks? National Parks?

We have a 23 ft CD with the rear bed, and we seem unusual in that it is our first one and we got the sizer right "for us" the first time around.

We wanted the smallest 2 axel Airstream available, we wanted 2 axels for "security" of towing.

Why the smallest? because the longer Airstreams are to long to fit in many spots at the older National Parks, and some older State Parks. There are only 2 of us and we manage the corner bed just fine. There is a curtain to separate the bedroom area from the living area but in 10 years we have never used it. The sink is outside the bathroom and that is convenient. We like the dinette and couch at the front - and we like the fact that there is not an inch of wasted floor space. We can boondock in it for a week at a time, using only solar panels, and conserving water, but not uncomfortably so. We definitely recommend the awning package too.

We have spent rainy days inside out 23 ft and we have been fine. We love the cosy feel of the 23 and it works for us. Think how you will use it, with or without utilities? that is probably the biggest issue. We usually nave utilities only once every 5 to 10 days of camping, usually just an overnight stay on our way to a park. Then think what parks you will actually "fit" in, that was the biggest thing for us, choice of camp sites in remote locations.

The Airstream has to fit your lifestyle, not anyone else's.

[Mikebrady62]

When we started looking at Airstreams, we thought the 23' was our sweet spot. Then we went to the dealership and spent 2+ hours just sitting in the different models. The extra 6" wide in the 25' and up was a game changer for us. We then decided the 25' was right for us. The more we sat there the more we liked the 27 & 28, even the 30 had our interest. Ended up with a 27 instead of the 30 because I wasn't willing to give up my 1/2 ton daily driver truck for a 3/4 ton. After we retire and I drive less, we may in fact decide to go with a 30 or even a 33 with a 3/4 or 1 ton truck but for now we love our 27 and my 1/2 ton Chevy with the 6.2L pulls (and stops) our AS very well. As for the A/C in my opinion, the 50 amp dual A/C is the way to go in anything 25' or longer. There are just too many pluses to ignore over a 30 amp system. Unless of course you never plan to camp in the heat of the summer in the south. I also still have plenty of room for 3 solar panels and so would the 25'. So for me, I think the 25' is the right answer between the 2. Have fun either way you go!

[Starlight Mike]

To sum up my feelings, I love the 25 FB, view out the back from big comfortable dinette. It is heavy and borderline for 1500/2500 TV. There is good reason the 25 is the most popular size. Easy to maneuver, plenty of room everywhere, comfortable. I have towed mine with both 1500 and 2500. 2500 has many advantages but we got by with 1500 for years, you just need to have everything exactly correct in your setup to tow safely.
Check out both trailers carefully and get the one you like. If you go with 25, watch your weights carefully with a half ton. Have a blast!

[Anders79]

My niece and her husband had a 23' for one year, and decided to move up to the 25' - and are much happier. I have only had a 25' so can't compare - but one thing both my wife and I would do differently is get two single beds - easier to move around, better storage; less hassle in middle of night excursions.

[Casper25]

In the last we've pulled a 23FBQ with half ton 6.2L gas. Not comfortable at the table in the 23. Changed to 25FBQ for that reason plus the extra width in the kitchen is very helpful. The table/couch seating is much more comfortable. IMO, get the 25FB. Safe travels.

[renderit]

Thank you ALL for your helpful comments.

I see many points presented that give fuel to my wife's 25 foot dreams.

I also see support for 23 being more practical given the parameters.

Keep 'em coming. The judge is still oot on this thing.

[WP53]

We recently moved up from a Sport 22 and went through much of the same decision process. We landed on the Flying Cloud 25 FB twin and feel very good about our choice. One thing to note - you have mentioned several times in this thread regrets about the electric only fridge. Please note that this is the case for the Globetrotter, but not the Flying Cloud series, which still uses a dual propane/AC fridge.

[jeffmc306]

Renderit, great advice from all so far. We also started with a FC23FB due to tow vehicle limitations. We wanted a 25 but didn’t want to risk it.

Our concerns with the 23’ were the dinette’s layout and lack of lounge space. After one season we loved the Airstream experience but not the dinette.

We moved up to a 27’ Globetrotter and have been very happy. The DW thought a 25’ GT would have been enough but the price difference at the time was only $4K so we went with the 27. The larger pantry with slide out microwave is great plus you get more galley space, extra room in the wardrobe and room at the end of the twins. That extra 2+ feet makes a difference inside but not when towing.

If you go with a 25’, get the twins rather than the East-West Queen. So much more room for changing and easier to make the beds.

If you can afford it, go with dual AC’s so you get the 50A service. It’s actually two 50A legs so your large power users get split on different 50A breakers. Much more flexible than one 30A for everything!

Good luck with your decision!
Jeff & Caryle