Senior Management Failures at AS

[rucos]

Im sure we hear about more bad than good on the site... but the one that drives me crazy is paying $100,000+ for a unit and then having people say "take it to JC" ..... drive 1000's of miles to fix your new unit! ....thats outrageous!!... Blacklab I also think your on target!

[J. Morgan]

Originally Posted by rucos

Im sure we hear about more bad than good on the site... but the one that drives me crazy is paying $100,000+ for a unit and then having people say "take it to JC" ..... drive 1000's of miles to fix your new unit! ....thats outrageous!!... Blacklab I also think your on target!

Maybe the problem is that it’s hard to find people who are capable of basic problem solving because of the shortcomings of modern American education?

Problem solving is a prerequisite of making proper repairs on something like an Airstream, if the skill is lacking, so will the quality of the repair.

[kendrick.l.j]

I must agree with Uncle Bob and point out AGAIN that Airstream Management is probably not on this forum.

BlackLab, you’re preaching to the choir. Not a word of this will get to the eyes and ears that you would like. My suggestion is that you contact the guys at Thor and get an appointment to speak to them in person and introduce the Deming philosophy to them. Show them the error of their ways and how they must repent from their current business model and do things as you suggest or face the wrath of a new generation that demands perfection in this very imperfect world.
So while you guys continue to grumble to each other, I am going to go and wash my 2017 Airstream Classic - that is fully functional - so I can head out for a nice little trip.

[Tmdumbauld]

Originally Posted by blacklab

This post probably should be in a different AS forum, but I'm not sure which one, so I'll post it here, as this is the one I'm most familiar with.

My spouse and I have been and continue to be in the "looking" mode for our first RV trailer. We're both still working (too much) to really enjoy a trailer to warrant its purchase, but we do see that changing in the not-to-distant future. So, we're spending a bit more time looking at potential RV trailers, including AS, and particularly a 23' Flying Cloud.

What I find stunning, and inexplicable, is the common thread of quality issues with AS trailers. And, the recognition and acceptance that's just the way it is in the RV manufacturing world. It doesn't have to be that way and it should not be that way, with AS or others.

One of the key reasons that American car manufacturers transitioned from their awful quality control issues of the late 60's and into the 70's and 80's is that they all adopted the key components of the Toyota Production System (TPS) (a/k/a Lean Manufacturing) whose foundation was developed and inspired by Dr. Deming, an American. The design and manufacturing of American cars today is far superior to the dark days of the late 60's, 70's and 80's. TPS/Lean Manufacturing is the primary reason. And, TPS is the key reason that Toyota had its success in penetrating the world markets in such a relatively short time while also producing staggering amounts of positive cash flow, year after year after year.

I have studied both Dr. Deming and TPS, including visiting several Toyota production facilities. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that AS (and other RV manufacturers) couldn't benefit from TPS and dramatically improve their designs and their quality. And, here's the critical point: By doing so, their financial performance improves---it results in creating additional shareholder value, not less.

The negative financial impacts, to both AS and its Dealers, from their design defects and manufacturing quality issues are not insignificant. Why the Dealers put up with it and have not forced a change in how AS senior management does their job is a mystery.

The "bottom line" point is that AS/Thor could make more money--not less--if they were to institute (deeply, not just cosmetically) TPS or Lean Manufacturing (or something very similar). Perhaps they've tried to do so, and failed (obviously). But, that's not an excuse. Try it again, and this time, do not fail.

I hate the idea of spending $70,000+ on something with the assumption that it will have significant quality issues that I will have to waste countless hours and money to fix. There is nothing else in the marketplace like that---nothing.

And, the damnable point is that it does not have to be that way. The responsibility rests solely with the senior management of AS (and Thor). They can make the necessary changes---and make more money---so why don't they?

Cheers,
Bryan

Agree completely. Take the factory tour in OH. I have run several aerospace factories around the company and the opportunities for improvement at AS were obvious and basic. Hopefully they are working on it before we buy our trailer in a couple years.

[GettinAway]

We’ve had good luck with our 23FB, built in 2011. We found quite a bit at our initial walkthrough, because I had read here about what to do and look for. We left the trailer there, and picked it up a few weeks later, with all issues taken care of.
I’m a Toyota guy, it’s pretty much all we’ve had for the last 20 yrs. I was a Ford guy before that, but had four bad ones in a row. I’m sure things have changed now, but pricing is insane on new trucks. And I don’t need a massaging seat.
Bryan, thanks for starting this thread. Interesting reading this morning. Some entertaining replies. I think you’ll enjoy your AS when you get it. You certainly know what to expect.
I’m afraid I’m in the camp with those that feel as long as AS sells at a huge premium everything they can produce, there is little incentive for them to change.
I was under the impression though that someone from AS customer service was monitoring this forum. It’s hard to imagine they don’t at least scan it on occasion.

[Anders79]

There is another significant difference in that AS is not making hundreds of thousands of trailers a year (Like an F-15) but rather a couple of thousand. Thus much more like the aircraft industry (who has also adopted lean / 6 sigma / ...). It does bring on some unique problems and in many cases; harder to implement on low volume products. But there are some not costly steps like some of the 6 sigma tools that could help focus solutions on common problems (although i expect much of the infant mortality problems are vendor issues -- and again harder to correct if you don't have much pull over them). Still agree that would be much beneficial to start working this issue for long term growth and customer satisfaction; but since they can't meet current demand -- can see why it appears little is being done to improve OTD quality. Just an observation.

[Mollysdad]

If you want to feel better about your Airstream, buy a Fiat.
Suddenly, the Airstream will seem like the space station.

[Coloradobus]

IMHO, when sales begin to plummet, only then will Thor/Airstream mgmt might make some changes. As long as the public continues to purchase airstreams as fast as the company can shove them out, they won’t make any QC changes. This isn’t anything new to us, both our 2006 and 1963 trailers show both QC concerns. It looks like Airstream seems to be meeting industry standards. Ifvour trailers seem shabby, consider a stick and staple trailer for QC. Yikes!

[WestieHouse]

Originally Posted by DBinSD

Bryan,
While I understand your concern and input, I must disagree on a whole. Could it help? Probably but,
AS has some QC issues and no one will really argue that.
However you are talking about a complete home bouncing down the road in comparison to a car.
Do you have issues with your house? Leaks, cabinet doors not fitting, etc etc. Then factor in those that “Think” for that much money they should be perfect and they do minimal maintenance. Same person then complains when there is a problem.
I feel the issue is mostly diversity of clientele expectations. Some are maintenance freaks, others do absolutely nothing. The answer lies in the middle somewhere.
I have owned all types of RVs and found the AS to be superior.
I am one that actually inspects my unit thoroughly multiple times a year and immediately address any issue.
As they say, your milage my vary.

Anyway, welcome and hope you find your perfect unit sometime soon while you can still enjoy it.

Dan

I wonder how many of us would fly in a Boeing airplane if they took the same stance as Airstream? And air turbulance and take iff/landing is far more stressful than “bouncing down the road”.

I recently visited a very good AS dealer and inspected new Airstreams only to find aluminum shavings in multiple locations in both exposed and unexposed areas. Boeing has adopted the measures described by Bryan. Absolutely no debris is acceptable ANYWHERE in a Boeibg airplane.

On a personal note I nearly cut my finger off on my first day of ownership on a brand new 23 FB due to an extremely sharp edge under the dinette table. I had to file the sharp metal edge down myself. The numerous repairs I have done over the past 3 years always reveal construction debris and poorly trimmed metal.

My TV Jeep GC diesel goes everywhere down the same roads, and more, than my Airstream. It doesn’t leak around the windows, there are no sharp edges, no debris, no broken lug nuts, doors misaligned or falling off, obsolete battery-killing charging systems, etc., etc.

The safety issues are totally unacceptable. The cost of recommended lengthy trips to Ohio is crazy. The disruption of planned vacations is outrageous given thd cost of an Airstream.

And the collector hobbyists and vintage restorers on this forum who frequently make excuses for Airstream/Thor are musguided. Their attitude is more appropriately compared to restorers of WWII aircraft.

US automakers and Harley Davidson learned this lesson. Airstream will continue to neglect it at its peril.

[J. Morgan]

Originally Posted by WestieHouse

I wonder how many of us would fly in a Boeing airplane if they took the same stance as Airstream? And air turbulance and take iff/landing is far more stressful than “bouncing down the road”.



I recently visited a very good AS dealer and inspected new Airstreams only to find aluminum shavings in multiple locations in both exposed and unexposed areas. Boeing has adopted the measures described by Bryan. Absolutely no debris is acceptable ANYWHERE in a Boeibg airplane.



On a personal note I nearly cut my finger off on my first day of ownership on a brand new 23 FB due to an extremely sharp edge under the dinette table. I had to file the sharp metal edge down myself. The numerous repairs I have done over the past 3 years always reveal construction debris and poorly trimmed metal.



My TV Jeep GC diesel goes everywhere down the same roads, and more, than my Airstream. It doesn’t leak around the windows, there are no sharp edges, no debris, no broken lug nuts, doors misaligned or falling off, obsolete battery-killing charging systems, etc., etc.



The safety issues are totally unacceptable. The cost of recommended lengthy trips to Ohio is crazy. The disruption of planned vacations is outrageous given thd cost of an Airstream.



And the collector hobbyists and vintage restorers on this forum who frequently make excuses for Airstream/Thor are musguided. Their attitude is more appropriately compared to restorers of WWII aircraft.



US automakers and Harley Davidson learned this lesson. Airstream will continue to neglect it at its peril.

I wonder how many of us could afford a Boeing Aircraft?

Begging everyones pardon who thinks otherwise, but shavings and “debris” being encapsulated in hidden areas is just the way it’s going to be so long as Airstream interiors are built in place inside of the body shell. Every hole drilled, and every self tapping screw installed is going to create shavings, and some of these shavings are going to fall into areas that are practically inaccessible without disassembly for cleaning. That would be ridiculous.

Context, context, context. Shavings and debris that falls into inaccessible areas is not a quality issue, it is a construction reality, and a reality that 99.999% of the time has no implications at all.

In that vein, I found a red magic marker between the plywood floor and the frame on my 72 when I pulled up the rotted floor four years ago........ the marker still worked, I used it for a while after that.

[WestieHouse]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

Actually no. Like passenger cars, houses have come a tremendously long way in terms of quality - this is true of even cheap tract houses. Older houses were problematic in myriad ways. Newer ones... not so much. My husband and I built our house more than 8 years ago. When it was 7.5 years old, we elected to replace the entire A/C system, upgrading from "builder basic" which we decided was not worth repairing when we had a blower fan issue (we are in Houston TX, so the A/C systems become high mileage quickly). But other than that, we've barely changed a light bulb. I will be surprised if we have to do anything in the next 10 years other than re-paint the soffit and trim (the new A/C has a 10-year warranty).

Quality issues (home, boat, car, RV, whatever) derive from:

(1) Not enough competition
(2) Not enough lawsuits

Remove either of those two, and the quality will promptly skyrocket. Otherwise, there's simply no incentive.

Excellent response. I was an executive with a large production entry level (not luxury) home builder in the southeast about 20 years ago. We doubled production in 2 years (1200 to > 2500 homes) while implementing quality production and just in time manufacturing in 30 communities. The privately held company prospered tremendously. The cost savings on warranty work was substantial and satisfied first-time owners (who usually could not have repaired everything) were our best advertising.

Standards in hone building and auto manufacturing have changed. The cheapest and lowest quality cars today are safer and more reliable than luxury vehicles of the 1970’s.

[Tim A.]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

Shavings and debris that falls into inaccessible areas is not a quality issue, it is a construction reality, and a reality that 99.999% of the time has no implications at all.

... I found a red magic marker between the plywood floor and the frame on my 72 when I pulled up the rotted floor four years ago........ the marker still worked, I used it for a while after that.

A shop vac works wonders on the detritus left by the factory and using it when our trailer was new 16 years ago helped me know a lot about all those hidden spots. For example, I found a nice, well-used carpenters level.

The inside of our trailer has loved collecting the large amounts of debris I have produced while modifying our trailer. Shop vac, again. That debris indicated nothing about the quality of the work I have done.

Has our trailer been trouble free for the 16 years we have owned and used it? No, but the basic design AND quality have stood the test of time.

Tim

[nswhite]

Yachts. While surfing the net I wound up on a yacht forum. And they were talking about quality issues. That they had paid a small fortune and their yacht was not ready for a round the world tour. They were told that there would be 9 months worth of shake down cruises and then it should be ready. They had done so and were glad of it.


Airstream still comes with a 24 month warranty. I think we're doing fine.


After some initial problems with ours all is well. Keep up with the maintenance. We've had our 13 years and still like it.

[Gene]

I have been reading threads about low Airstream QC for 11 years and not much has changed, including management. Bob Wheeler seems to be there for life and nothing indicates he has changed. He was hired to cut costs, made a lot of mistakes (using OSB for subfloors in some models, weakening the frame in others, the original Basecamp, for ex.) and Thor is happy with the Wheeler outcomes. Thor makes a lot of money and sees no reason to change. Their other trailers are of mediocre or worse quality. That is what the company is all about and the corporate culture is unlikely to change.

We have had many Toyotas over the past 20 years and they have been close to bullet proof. For example, how come cars rarely leak and RV's do? Yes, RV's are complex, but so are cars and trucks. Toyota figured it out, but low quality persists in many places.

In some industries, quality has improved (cars and trucks) and in some it has deteriorated—appliances now are said to last 10 or fewer years. Remember when a fridge lasted for a generation? We have gotten used to crap and therefore, people buy Fiats and Chryslers. Mechanics tell me Dodge (or now "Ram") trucks need the front end rebuilt every 5,000 miles, but because they look aggressive and promote "hemis" (every engine on the market has a similar cylinder design), they still sell them.

It is true not everyone will get a bad vehicle. I am sure there are Fiats ("Fix It Again Tony") that go 20,000 miles before they start falling apart. That doesn't mean Fiats are good, it just means some are, some aren't.

We had about 60 items that needed fixing, sometimes more than once, on our 2008 Safari. The dealer was terrible and damaged our trailer, so we had to go to Ohio for proper warranty work (1,400 miles each way). They do tow well, are more aerodynamic than most RV's and look cool. They last a long time (unlike me). They are also small inside insisting on the hallway floor plan that eats space, use cheap materials, have poor workmanship, are slow to change. They are sold as premium, but the only thing that is premium is the original design, something Thor has nothing to do with. Credit Wally Byam for that. When appliances were starting to act up and we were tired of squeezing past each other and having trouble fitting in the kitchen together, we decided to make a change.

Because of an excellent, if unearned, reputation, we sold our Safari for 71% of what we paid for it after 10 years and 62,000 miles. It was a better product when we sold it because of our modifications. We bought a Nash which had been sitting on a lot for 1 1/2 years and got a good price. Spend some money on it (better tires, TV's, not a whole lot else) and had a handsome profit for the deal. It is 15" longer and about 25 sq. feet larger inside. It has a real sofa, room to work together, better A/C, larger shower by a little, much easier to get in and out of bed. It is not streamlined and we use more gas, but these days we don't travel as far. Now we have a power awning and actually use it. The Airstream awning was clunky to use and we hardly ever did. The insulation in the Nash is far superior to the Airstream, thus meaning we don't have a super hot insides while driving and use less A/C and furnace. It is not cool looking, but we can cope. I don't doubt it won't last 50 years, but it will be sold long before that.

If we whereat do it all again, we might buy a gently used Airstream, maybe a 27' with the better bed design and a little more room in the kitchen. But maybe an Arctic Fox, same company as Nash, but with a better frame and a few more perks. The QC on our Nash has been far superior to the Airstream. Sure, there are some cheap parts, but we paid a lot less for them than we did for the Airstream.

Thor and Airstream will not change in most of our lifetimes. GM did not either even though the writing was on the wall for decades. The culture was hidebound, just like Thor. The companies make a lot of money doing the same things for decades until a reckoning comes. For GM it came a decade ago and they still haven't caught up on QC, but certainly have improved (Chrysler also went bankrupt, but QC is just as bad or worse). Don't wait for Toyota to build RV's. It is highly unlikely, though I'd love to see it. Someone will make much better ones someday and start making a real difference, but I don't know who or when. Meanwhile our Tundra has more than 123,000 miles, runs like new and has had few repairs. The brakes were rebuilt in 2016 because it seemed time (towing is not good for brakes and the Tundra brakes are not as good as the rest of the truck), a catalytic converter needed replacement this year and I had the O2 sensors replaced as preventive maintenance. Preventative maintenance is just about all I have done on the Tundra. How many well-used trucks are doing as well? It makes paying the very high prices for trucks now a bad choice. I'd like a new truck too, but it makes no sense.

Airstreamers were complaining about the same things when I started here in 2007 and I should have paid more attention to them. We should have bought a used one, but talked ourselves out of it. That was a mistake. Or we should have looked elsewhere. It is pretty hard to find RV product reviews for free on the internet, but considering the cost of an RV, buying reviews makes sense. Another mistake of ours. The few free review sites show Airstream's best point to be the design and QC to be inferior. All other Thor products fare badly, at best mediocre.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

I wonder how many of us could afford a Boeing Aircraft?

.

Hi

Yes indeed. I've built product for those guys. If you want to see a $1,200 door latch, check on a 737. Adopting an aerospace approach is the perfect way to come up with a $1,000,000 Airstream trailer. Anybody want to sign the check for that one?

As price goes up, quantity goes down - fast. AS has hit the bankruptcy wall several times over the years. Each time it's been to few units out the door that did it to them. They are in a very cyclical business and are one of the very few survivors in that business ( like one out of 500 ).

Bob

[LY007]

Elon Musk thought he was smarter than Toyota/Deming. Look where that got him.

https://www.leanblog.org/2018/05/les...-get-the-memo/

[JDTodd]

I am just going to say this about quality. I did a lot of research before buying my new 2017 FC 28. I also looked at the quality of friends SOBs and went to many RV shows. Being able to see an Airstream next to something else really opened my eyes and steered me toward the Airstream. My dealer also played an important part in my decision. No pressure, what I considered a fair price, and always there when I need something. Maybe I am one of the lucky ones, but I am more than happy with my decision and will have something worth more than $5K in 5 years.

[turk123]

Originally Posted by LY007

Elon Musk thought he was smarter than Toyota/Deming. Look where that got him.

https://www.leanblog.org/2018/05/les...-get-the-memo/

Old news. Elon is now making about 3800 cars a week and will achieve 5000 by the end of the month. He now has three lines running and has done one impressive job of building an American car company. An American success story.

[Len n Jeanne]

Fascinating discussion....

Blacklab, you mentioned wanting to upgrade from tent-camping to RVing, as we did in 2006. Assuming you decide to by a RV of some description, I might mention that we decided to stay small so that we could get into those neat old BLM, USFS, NPS, and (in Canada) municipal campgrounds designed before the era of monster 5th wheels and class A motorhomes with slideouts. We don't particularly enjoy camping in RV parks where the units are all cheek-by-jowl, and there's no space between them. We do see a lot of big units boondocking in some of the wilder places where we like to camp, but we found that a small unit enables us to get into petite sites in old campgrounds that exclude the jolly jumbos.

We happily welcome as neighbours fellow Airstreamers of any size and description, though: don't get me wrong. I usually introduce myself to them by saying, "We just wanted to meet the other people here with good taste in RVs."

Design is also something to think about.

[J. Morgan]

Originally Posted by turk123

Old news. Elon is now making about 3800 cars a week and will achieve 5000 by the end of the month. He now has three lines running and has done one impressive job of building an American car company. An American success story.

Yep.