New Airstream Owner - not impressed and would not recommend

[TG Twinkie]

Robots don't call in sick. They don't go on strike. They don't complain. They don't take weekends off. They don't take vacation. They don't whine about working conditions. They don't need health insurance.
In other words they are less expensive than humans in the end.
That's why the auto makers use robots. Plus they are consistant in their quantity and quality. Wye they even do their own quality control inspections. They don't leave candy wrappers and other junk in the hidden places.
Just some of the reasons automakers and others use robots.

[Gene]

Airstream may not be able to afford robots, though if they can build a new plant for $40M as stated elsewhere, maybe they could. However, do they have computers linked to cutting tools to cut out the windows, doors, etc., in the aluminum? They used to make the cushions in house, but the ones we had were not made well. Maybe that should have been outsourced. That's just a few examples of ways to increase efficiency and accuracy at the relatively small factory. And some items could be made by Thor, a very large company, if Thor were interested in higher quality goods.

Other small manufacturers do produce higher quality RV's. We've been to the Northwoods' factory in Oregon. I think their annual production is much less than Airstream's. From what I could find on the internet, Airstream's annual gross is about 4 times Northwood's. Airstream has maybe 25-50% more employees, indicating the profits at Airstream are very high. I didn't see a lot of automation at Northwoods. Northwoods is I believe privately owned and Airstream's numbers seem to be buried in Thor's numbers. Regardless, both are pretty small compared to many other companies. Northwoods is consistently listed as a higher quality manufacturer. Thor's many brands, despite the company size, are not so listed.

Quality and precision is easier if you have lots of money for automation, but quality can be achieved in other ways: executive attitude, better training of employees, better pay for employees are just some ways.

[Ray Eklund]

[QUOTE=Uncle Milky;2243603]I bought a 2019 Flying Cloud 25FB Twin last November. I took it on its maiden voyage at the end of March. In addition to some minor defects, the water pump did not work.
******

Earlier you made a comment that your PUMP RUNS... but only air comes out.

Common newbie mistake. I know. I was a Newbie in 2006.

Best way to check this out and save yourself some possible grief. Connect your home water to the City Connection on the outside of your trailer. Open the cold and hot valves on your sinks and shower. Turn the City Water connection ON. Within a minute you will have water flowing. Good.

This will also fill your Hot Water Tank. This may be your real problem and this will take care of it. The HOT water system takes the longest to bleed out air from the system. I am surprised no one has mentioned any of this.

Turn all hot and cold water off, including shower. Good.

You said your Fresh Water Tank was 80% full. Good.

I would suggest you be connected to electric power to save your batteries, but if they are fully charged. Good.

Disconnect the City Water hose. Screw in the plug. Good.

Turn Water Pump ON. If you hear the pump running. Good.

Open the Cold on the front sink. If the pump is drawing water from the fresh water tank, bubbles and spurt of water will be coming out. Good.

Shut off the Cold, do the same with the Hot.

You will have to bleed air from all of the other lines. One at a time. The pump will shut off when pressure is maxed. If it burbs, you need to run through removing air from the water lines. When all of the air is out of the system you will hear the water pump begin to... groan with the pressure... and shuts off. If it doesn't... bleed air from each sink, shower, hot and cold one at a time, and see if the pump gets up to pressure and stops.

This may have been explained under Boondocking some years ago. It is not the pump, most likely, but inexperience. Done it for 13 years... it works.

[Gene]

Ray is correct. Note that it can take quite a while to get all the air out of the lines. I would start with the bathroom sink since it is close to the water pump, then toilet, shower, then kitchen. But, the outdoor shower was on ours real close to the pump too and that may be the first to try except the bathroom sink is easier since you are already inside.

I think even with the system air bound, the pump would go on for a few seconds and you might hear it. The pumps used to be really noisy, so they were pretty easy to hear (I put rubber under the feet and that quieted it down a bit). Also check the breaker for the pump and look for loose wires.

I am assuming the pump is in the same place as well. It is behind a door with no handle under the hallway wardrobe—it was not easy to open. Make sure that if there is a bypass attached to the pump to fill the system with antifreeze in winter, the bypass is open for the pump to pump into the pipes. Otherwise it is set to suck antifreeze into the water pipes. A bypass should be on the net side of the pump. About half the time I would forget to turn the valve on the bypass. This was mentioned in a previous post and would be good to check first.

[DewTheDew]

To the OP. I hope your issues get dealt with soon. We bought ours "used"; someone had taken two or three trips with it. It has been fantastic from a build quality standpoint; no leaks, door shuts perfectly, fit and finish seems fine, no rivets popped, battery seems to be holding up (we have solar so the upgraded battery) and so on. We are fortunate to live relatively (150 miles) close to Colonial Airstream, which is generally considered one of the top places in the east coast. We did have an AC replaced under warranty but that wasn't a build issue. We absolutely love our trailer. We find it comfortable and a relaxing place to spend time. I hope you get satisfaction out of your purchase.

[skyguyscott]

Originally Posted by Uncle Milky

For those who asked, the water pump would turn on and run, but mostly air would come out of the faucets. The water tank was 80% full and this is supposed to be a self-priming pump (although few people have suggested otherwise here). Anyway, the problem was the pump itself. They are replacing it within the next two days.

But good info for common pump problems to those finding this thread with similar problem.

[Ray Eklund]

Originally Posted by skyguyscott

But good info for common pump problems to those finding this thread with similar problem.

*****
Water pump issues... probably will get resolved quickly.

Black water tank issues... well the learning curve is steep. The Forum has so many experts and experience the answers are already posted. My favorite subject, but later.

Sit back and enjoy the ride. Those that have followed one another on the Forums for years can grin and recall when we had no clue what was going on beneath that skin of aluminum and rivets.

Your Airstream comes complete. You will need to tweak it until it floats and tows level behind your tow vehicle. It will happen, but give it two years. You will not be disappointed, but after the newness is worn off your Airstream will be road worthy with your tweaking what needs to be taken care of.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Ray Eklund

*****
Water pump issues... probably will get resolved quickly.

Black water tank issues... well the learning curve is steep. The Forum has so many experts and experience the answers are already posted. My favorite subject, but later.

Sit back and enjoy the ride. Those that have followed one another on the Forums for years can grin and recall when we had no clue what was going on beneath that skin of aluminum and rivets.

Your Airstream comes complete. You will need to tweak it until it floats and tows level behind your tow vehicle. It will happen, but give it two years. You will not be disappointed, but after the newness is worn off your Airstream will be road worthy with your tweaking what needs to be taken care of.

Words of wisdom...agree! Water pump issues happen...usually air in lines which can be frustrating to newbies...I remember sucking on my outside shower hose to get mine working a couple times on my first 2006 AS. Still happens from time to time, even with my newer models I've owned; but not a big worry. End of the day, AS provides a very nice TT...

[AirstreamCSH]

This is for the new person reading AirForums trying to decide if AS is for them.

Nine pages in and I have to say that @Moosetags hit it on the head right off when he said if you can’t handle a water pump on your own, this is the wrong pursuit for you. There are no industry standards in the RV industry and every RV will have problems, some major and some minor. The major ones are for the dealers and the minor ones are for you to deal with yourself. Think of it as a training opportunity to learn your units systems and how to self help when on the road. Airstream literally takes pride in the fact that they sell every unit and had to expand their production capacity despite their zero quality program coupled with their cheap equipment choices when compared to European caravan offerings. If you can’t use a tool bag, you WILL be disappointed along the way.

You might read the above and conclude that I’m not a fan of Airstream. You’d be wrong because the competition, except for NuCamp, is worse. Before you buy or upgrade, take the time to walk thru a local RV show and check out the quality of the various offerings. When we did this last fall, we purchased a NuCamp because in the 16’ range, it was hands down the best quality unit sold including the Airstream which was being displayed with water in the taillights and missing caulking up the left side. Even then, I had to write a 120 page manual for the family because nuCamp sold a new model trailer with an out of date manual which had little information of value. We needed a resource guide for the family members who would be using it along with our Airstream 25FB so we wrote our own. Moreover, despite its much higher quality, NuCamp and most of the other manufacturers lack anything like the support group here on AirForums and that support is worth 10’s of thousands in price difference when you are boondocking and forgot exactly how to reset the air bubble in your Atwood heater.

Going a step further, when your Coachman, Jayco or Freedom Elite have equipment failures, you can’t rely on the Airstream family for help. Just this weekend I was boondocking at an event and passed the other RVs just to say “Hello the Airstream” as many have done for me and I to others. Turns out he was new to his 22 Safari and the refrigerator wouldn’t come on. So out came the toolbag and we went through the unit to figure out what the trouble could be. The other units had misreading KIB monitors and other issues but nobody helping each other because the Airstream community is just that.

So I’ll just sum up by saying you are buying a silver trailer that is made unnecessarily poorly but also buying the support from this forum and fellow owners on the road. There is NOTHING like the fellow Airstream support from any other trailer marque. Until someone comes along to take Airstream private and bring back pride of manufacturing, you just have to accept that they did the job 90pct of the way and the remaining 10pct will be on you. Buy tools, join AirForums, attend a local WBCCI rally and meet fellow owners. It’s worth the disappointment you will feel for the quality you thought you paid for until you learn how to maintain the unit on your own. Then you’ll be like an old car lover and not remember or care just how badly old cars were made too.

[Gene]

Perhaps Airstream should give all Forum users a check for how we help people with quality issues on their Airstreams. We'll never know, but would lots of new owners give up on their Airstream purchases and sell them fast if no one was telling them how to fix the many issues that come up? 'CSH's post raises questions. Should Airstream give every potential buyer a statement to the effect—"this trailer is iconic in design, but comes with many issues of poor quality and workmanship. You should only buy it if you are good with tools and prepared to fix many things yourself. Airstream makes huge profits so you can have your own iconic trailer and thank us by paying more than they are worth"

I think 'CSH's post is nuanced and appreciate the thoughtfulness even if I don't agree with all of it. I do think there are some other manufacturers besides NuCamp that make better quality trailers, though other than Northwoods Mfg., I can't think of any.

[skyguyscott]

Yup. It would certainly be more honest, eh?

Airstream. Some (re)assembly required.

[TG Twinkie]

Originally Posted by Gene

Perhaps Airstream should give all Forum users a check for how we help people with quality issues on their Airstreams. We'll never know, but would lots of new owners give up on their Airstream purchases and sell them fast if no one was telling them how to fix the many issues that come up? 'CSH's post raises questions. Should Airstream give every potential buyer a statement to the effect—"this trailer is iconic in design, but comes with many issues of poor quality and workmanship. You should only buy it if you are good with tools and prepared to fix many things yourself. Airstream makes huge profits so you can have your own iconic trailer and thank us by paying more than they are worth"

I think 'CSH's post is nuanced and appreciate the thoughtfulness even if I don't agree with all of it. I do think there are some other manufacturers besides NuCamp that make better quality trailers, though other than Northwoods Mfg., I can't think of any.

In 2015 I bought a new Nash trailer.
I would rate it at an 7 on a 1-10 scale.
In the fall of 2015 I stopped at their factory with a list of issues. All I heard from the service manager was "You Could" when it came to warranty items.
I wrote a 4 page letter to Ron Nash (the owner) about my "not so good experience" at the factory. Never heard a word from him.
We like the Nash. The price was right. I Read about A$ owners and their problems. And ask; Why would I pay 5 to 6 times the amount for an A$ and have the same or more problems.
I do own an A$ product. It is a '74 Argosy 26'. I have done a lot of work on it. I am familiar with A$ products.
Based on my experience here and reading about the problems new owners have with A$ quality. Seeing that the new trailers have the same problems as my 45 year old unit had. Notice; I said "had". I would not buy a new unit. But that's just my opinion.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Our local AS dealer finally got some actual Airstreams.

Sandra and I took a time out during an errand run recently to actually go check them out. The associate was kind enough to get the keys to all 7, it was very enlightening.
All were given a cursory exterior look over, not one made it thru. Most glaring and easily remedied, badly rusted A frames. Why would JC send the dealer trailers with such an obvious cosmetic defect? Not a good first impression.

Another item that I noted, (granted, probably not something a newbie would), too many 'eyebrows' on the rivets. Two trailers had compartments that didn't latch properly

Inside, the all too common fit & finish, cabinet gaps, poor alignment of the plastic latches, wavy floors(2).
We are a bit biased though, not a fan of the shiny interiors, with laminate everything.

Disclaimer...none of them had been PDI'd. All were FC's, Serenity or Sport's. We did not look at the Nest's or BC's.🤓

Bob
🇺🇸

[Gene]

Although I think the Nash was better made than our Airstream, I will not say it was perfect, just better made. I was having trouble getting something done on warranty so I sent an email to the owner, Ron Nash. It was pretty easy to figure out his email address. He sent a nasty note about me actually contacting him, the emperor of Northwoods, to the warranty guy, but hit "reply all" so I got it too. he also told the warranty guy to take care of it and warranty guy apparently interpreted that to mean give me anything I wanted. I replied to him that he better deal with his anger issues and not reply to everyone. He did not reply to me that time. I think it was because there was a hole in the upholstery on the sofa and they had claimed it was not covered. We then visited the Northwoods' plant and I met the warranty guy. He was very nice to me and did some things I requested while there (shower was very weak, they replaced the entire assembly, it helped a bit). I also got the cover on the sofa replaced once I showed him the hole. I suspected someone ripped it when it sat on the dealer lot for 18 months, but regardless, it was not my problem.

The Northwoods plant would have interested OSHA. Kind of messy and lots of sawdust on the floor. I don't recall if there was more automation than the Airstream factory. They do get their frames made elsewhere. If you look at other trailers you may notice that many now come without a full frame. There is a tongue and the frame stops at the front of the box, then something at the rear to hold the bumper. How these things hold together, I don't know.

Bob's report on new Airstreams was depressing. Whenever the factory ramps up production, quality drops. Ours was made in the summer of 2007 and had many, many problems. They were cranking them out just before the Great Recession hit. Best to buy during a recession, and I suspect you won't have to wait that long, but a good late model used one is the best choice. I know if no one buys new ones, there eventually won't be any used ones, but they'll be plenty for a while.

[DewTheDew]

Regarding reliability. I have had a few specialty cars (such as a 2000 BMW Z3 Mcoupe) and the forums have always been full of defects that people find. Pick any vehicle and look up the forum on it and it would scare you away. So when I was looking for a trailer and was zeroing in on AS, I read the posts here with a grain of salt. What is a glaring defect to someone (wavy floors) is something I would never notice and wouldn't care if I did. I do want the stuff to work and things not to leak and so far it has been pretty good. Maybe I got lucky, or maybe things just don't bother me like they do others.

Went camping this weekend and was on city water but had put some in my tank before leaving home so this morning I pulled the hose and turned on the pump to use that up. The pump came on but was quieter than normal and we weren't getting any water. Turned it on and off a couple of times and was just about to panic when you could hear it really get going and everything was fine. That might dishearten some, but for me I was happy because it worked in the end.

[skyguyscott]

Originally Posted by TG Twinkie

Seeing that the new trailers have the same problems as my 45 year old unit had... I would not buy a new unit.

I agree with you there, Twinkie. Part of me would like to buy an new AS someday, but the price point they are asking, just does not match the quality they promise.

Many of the nagging little imperfections noticed by Bob, like the sloppy rivets, and gaps in assembly could probably be addressed by some automation, and while Robots cost a pretty penny up front, I would think they would be worth it, especially since AS so rarely updates the design of frame and shell, unlike the auto industry.

What I find curious is that if you compare any auto and AS from 40 or 50 years ago to what is on the sales lot today, the automobile will be a VASTLY better machine in almost every aspect, but the AS will exhibit relatively modest technological evolution, and in some details, be even cheaper-looking.

So, I do believe one could do even better buying a reasonably good vintage trailer and either by DIY or investing THOU$AND$ end up with a far-better-than-new rig.

[MandDinSpgTX]

Exactly what happened to us as well. Took it out on a 4,000 mile journey and realized that they are charging alot for what is not the best in quality. The good news is this - you can spend between $20K and $30K more on mods and you will actually love your Airstream. We will be putting a post up with what we just did to mod our 2018 27 FC FB to make it an awesome trailer. Airstream does read the review......Justin Humphreys knows and sees what is going on and is working diligently to fix it. It won't be easy; however, there are some good things coming.

[MandDinSpgTX]

Originally Posted by Gene

Perhaps Airstream should give all Forum users a check for how we help people with quality issues on their Airstreams. We'll never know, but would lots of new owners give up on their Airstream purchases and sell them fast if no one was telling them how to fix the many issues that come up? 'CSH's post raises questions. Should Airstream give every potential buyer a statement to the effect—"this trailer is iconic in design, but comes with many issues of poor quality and workmanship. You should only buy it if you are good with tools and prepared to fix many things yourself. Airstream makes huge profits so you can have your own iconic trailer and thank us by paying more than they are worth"

I think 'CSH's post is nuanced and appreciate the thoughtfulness even if I don't agree with all of it. I do think there are some other manufacturers besides NuCamp that make better quality trailers, though other than Northwoods Mfg., I can't think of any.

They are forming a User Group for feedback.......

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by MandDinSpgTX

They are forming a User Group for feedback.......

Do they really need feedback?...feeding back would indicate they are ignorant of what needs to be done.
JC knows what to do, they just won't do it.

Bob
🇺🇸

[OTRA15]

^^^^^ x2