Lowering tongue weight?

[jcl]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

The sticker on your driver doorjamb is the payload number you don't want to exceed, to be safe and within Mfg. specs. Many here, will tell you different; many of those same folks have never had an accident where the "insurance" guy starts asking questions during his investigation of the cause...were you over vehicle limits, especially payload? In the end, it's your decision on whether you want to be within limits or not. Who you going to call if something does happen? There are reams of posts/disagreement's on this topic; actual accounts from accidents also, including my experience years back. Trust me; you don't want to be outside your payload number.

Not true. The discussion is about how the sticker on the driver door jamb is not necessarily the maximum payload, it is the manufacturer's stated payload. If you don't want to bother going to the scales, sure, trust it. You may be leaving some capacity on the table, but go ahead.

If we accept that the GVWR is a maximum, and that truck scales are accurate, then we can weigh the vehicle and determine the payload that way. When it doesn't agree with the door jamb figure, and every door jamb for a class of vehicle has the same number, we can conclude that the manufacturer simply nominated a conservative payload, one that all the vehicles met legally, and used that for the label. This has nothing to do with crashes, lawyers, and so on. It has to do with scales and GVWR labels.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by DaveP

So, going back to my post # 70, what is my payload number. 1151 lbs on the yellow sticker? 1244 lbs on my empty weight versus the GVWR? Or 1844 lbs which is the axle weights minus the empty weights??

The yellow sticker is the manufacturer's stated payload. It is useful for shopping purposes, and for the vast majority of owners, who never visit a scale.

The GVWR minus the measured curb weight is the official payload, based on the GVWR, which always applies to commercial carriers, may apply to some private vehicles in some jurisdictions, and is what the manufacturer used as a baseline to design the vehicle. It doesn't consider a multitude of variables, one being the use of WD equipment.

The axle weight ratings less the curb weight is the maximum the vehicle was designed to carry, but doesn't consider things like load distribution, dynamic loads, and so on.

I generally consider the GVWR minus the curb weight a reasonable maximum weight target (it will be more accurate than the payload sticker in many cases), and especially work to it when running solo, eg just the truck. I would confirm with scales, and am comfortable exceeding it a little when using WD, but will never exceed the axle loads.

[dznf0g]

Geez, fellas. Take your truck from the dealer, add the accessories you have to have, load your permanent gear (emergency kit, glove box stuff, etc), fill the tank and weigh.
The result is your "personal curb weight ".
Subtract that weigh number from gvwr.
You now have your "personal payload" number.


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[SYC2Vette]

Originally Posted by jcl

.................................................. ...

The next generation model had similar issues. And the one after that. Then they went to detachable hitch balls, and eliminated the discussion about WD by virtue of the design.

The BMW sourced (i.e. BMW part numbers) kit that my son had installed by BMW dealer last year on his X6M had as an option he got 3 different ball assemblies and a 2" receiver so although not rated for WD you theoretically could have used one. They also installed a BMW wired brake controller that plugged right into the harness. Also included was reprograming so that affects quite a few parameters when it recognizes a trailer is connected, including some sway control through braking bias. I notice now the part number for the brake controller shows "not available" on some but not all BMW part supplier's websites. Certainly the best and least expensive way to go is to order the towing option. Seems to tow our FC20 pretty well even without WD and right at 600 lb TW limit. He is going smaller though.
https://www.shopbmwusa.com/ACCESSORI...TCH-COMPONENTS

[jcl]

Originally Posted by SYC2Vette

The BMW sourced (i.e. BMW part numbers) kit that my son had installed by BMW dealer last year on his X6M had as an option he got 3 different ball assemblies and a 2" receiver so although not rated for WD you theoretically could have used one. They also installed a BMW wired brake controller that plugged right into the harness. Also included was reprograming so that affects quite a few parameters when it recognizes a trailer is connected, including some sway control through braking bias. I notice now the part number for the brake controller shows "not available" on some but not all BMW part supplier's websites. Certainly the best and least expensive way to go is to order the towing option. Seems to tow our FC20 pretty well even without WD and right at 600 lb TW limit. He is going smaller though.
https://www.shopbmwusa.com/ACCESSORI...TCH-COMPONENTS

The detachable tow arm style, with a variety of balls, often came with a clip in 2" square receiver for a bike rack. These are the style that did not accommodate WD, they simply weren't strong enough.

BMW may have a brake controller by now, my last look and the one I linked, was 2020. I would have simply used a wireless Prodigy myself. What was interesting to me was that BMW owners found themselves in the same situation in 2020, building custom harnesses and studying wiring diagrams, as we lived through in the early 2000s.

BMW installed trailer stability control from around 2000. I had it on my 2003, and 2007. Their supplier was Continental. It did not control electric trailer brakes (which didn't exist in Germany) but it did sense trailer sway and use the tow vehicle brakes to stabilize the combination. They didn't need to upload the programming for these features, it turned out that every BMW had them. The features were activated by connecting trailer wiring to the BMW harness. Dealer programming was sometimes required because although the wiring kit was designed to be plug and play, and the vehicle was supposed to then recognize the trailer being connected, it didn't always work. The dealer programming required was to go into the vehicle consist and tell the vehicle that yes, the wiring kit was now installed. They charged hundreds to do that at the time.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by jcl

Not true. The discussion is about how the sticker on the driver door jamb is not necessarily the maximum payload, it is the manufacturer's stated payload. If you don't want to bother going to the scales, sure, trust it. You may be leaving some capacity on the table, but go ahead.

If we accept that the GVWR is a maximum, and that truck scales are accurate, then we can weigh the vehicle and determine the payload that way. When it doesn't agree with the door jamb figure, and every door jamb for a class of vehicle has the same number, we can conclude that the manufacturer simply nominated a conservative payload, one that all the vehicles met legally, and used that for the label. This has nothing to do with crashes, lawyers, and so on. It has to do with scales and GVWR labels.

It was my understanding that the payload numbers on the door post sticker varied from vehicle to vehicle, largely depending on the installed options.

Are you saying that you believe the payload numbers don't represent a number at all specific to the vehicle on which you're reading the sticker?

[jcl]

Originally Posted by richard5933

It was my understanding that the payload numbers on the door post sticker varied from vehicle to vehicle, largely depending on the installed options.

Are you saying that you believe the payload numbers don't represent a number at all specific to the vehicle on which you're reading the sticker?

They represent the specific vehicle more accurately than the brochure or web site does. They vary from vehicle to vehicle. But that doesn't mean they are necessarily completely accurate.

A manufacturer doesn't need to put the maximum possible payload on the label. Typically, they will account for significant options or packages of options. But payload stickers are rarely serial number specific.

When a poster here asked RAM, some time back, why his payload label did not match his specific vehicle, and he ended up speaking with a factory tech rep, the answer (which was posted here at the time) was that the specific vehicle consist and the computer that held it, wasn't interfaced to the label printer in the factory. They estimated it. They picked off significant options and allowed for them, and they didn't overstate the payload (which would be contrary to the regulations). By necessity, that left some payload on the table.

With my last BMW tow vehicle, I commented on this board that my payload label matched (to the digit) what was on the web site for payload. Other BMW owners chimed in, same story. We were told, generally by those with North American pickups, that was impossible, that the payload label is specific to the exact vehicle. It is an urban myth. The label absolutely has better info, in terms of being more accurate, than the manufacturer's brochure. But the way to know is to weigh the vehicle. In my case, it was hundreds of pounds. In the case of the BMW G05 recently referenced, it was hundreds of pounds. IMO, and I have no proof of this, it is because the manufacturer doesn't see a high payload figure as being important for their marketing and sales success. That is different than North American pickup manufactures, as an example, who do see payload figures as driving customer behaviours.

[Mattedfred]

Originally Posted by jcl

That is different than North American pickup manufactures, as an example, who do see payload figures as driving customer behaviours.

Unless you’re Toyota. Sadly, even the completely redesigned 2022 Tundra has a lower than expected payload.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by SYC2Vette

Just FYI, while what you describe is available, his is a Class III 2" Receiver

Yes. This is the BMW one I was describing. While it is called a Class III towbar, and it has an option for a 2" receiver fitting, it is not suitable for WD as it is not designed to take the torque loads.

They actually describe the ball attachment as Class III, and the square tube attachment as Class II. There may be a Class III square tube option, but I would not trust the strength of it with WD.

https://www.bimmerworld.com/Body-Aer...712349501.html

[SYC2Vette]

Originally Posted by jcl

Yes. This is the BMW one I was describing. While it is called a Class III towbar, and it has an option for a 2" receiver fitting, it is not suitable for WD as it is not designed to take the torque loads.

They actually describe the ball attachment as Class III, and the square tube attachment as Class II. There may be a Class III square tube option, but I would not trust the strength of it with WD.

https://www.bimmerworld.com/Body-Aer...712349501.html

That's it and I agree it is not suitable for WD. It is a pretty slick design, but appropriately rated at 600/6000 weight carrying only. Not shown in the diagram are reinforcing plates that are installed at the mounting location. Technically since his is an M the brakes are the same as an X6 with towing package rated at 7200lbs towing.

It was very expensive to have the entire installation done by BMW but that was his desired approach for several logical reasons, and he is satisfied with the result. To tow our 20 footer we needed to get about 80 lbs off the TW along the same lines as the OP. Our son is looking at 16'-19' anyway at this time, so TW no longer an issue.

[dznf0g]

"A manufacturer doesn't need to put the maximum possible payload on the label. Typically, they will account for significant options or packages of options. But payload stickers are rarely serial number specific."

This definitely incorrect, for GM anyway.
Every option, nut and bolt for the particular VIN is accounted for on the sticker attached to that vehicle. No ifs and or buts about it.
I have seen the tables used for the label creation.

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[jcl]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

"A manufacturer doesn't need to put the maximum possible payload on the label. Typically, they will account for significant options or packages of options. But payload stickers are rarely serial number specific."

This definitely incorrect, for GM anyway.
Every option, nut and bolt for the particular VIN is accounted for on the sticker attached to that vehicle. No ifs and or buts about it.
I have seen the tables used for the label creation.

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There are sufficient examples of it not being the case, including with RAM. It is good to know that GM are being precise with pickups. Is that true of GM passenger vehicles as well?

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by jcl

There are sufficient examples of it not being the case, including with RAM. It is good to know that GM are being precise with pickups. Is that true of GM passenger vehicles as well?

Haven't heard any mention of dealer-installed options. Those stickers are applied at the factory so they could not include the weight of items either added or deleted at the dealer.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by richard5933

Haven't heard any mention of dealer-installed options. Those stickers are applied at the factory so they could not include the weight of items either added or deleted at the dealer.

No payload sticker will include items installed after production, by dealer or owner, apart from the upfitter program which allows manufacturers of special bodies (eg ambulances, firetrucks, special bodies) to apply for a new weight certification.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by jcl

No payload sticker will include items installed after production, by dealer or owner, apart from the upfitter program which allows manufacturers of special bodies (eg ambulances, firetrucks, special bodies) to apply for a new weight certification.

That was my point... The sticker may not be 100% accurate because of this. I was pointing out that it may not be anything to do with the manufacturer not providing accurate information as much as the information changing after the sticker is applied.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by jcl

There are sufficient examples of it not being the case, including with RAM. It is good to know that GM are being precise with pickups. Is that true of GM passenger vehicles as well?

Yes.

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[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by richard5933

Haven't heard any mention of dealer-installed options. Those stickers are applied at the factory so they could not include the weight of items either added or deleted at the dealer.

With the exception of factory invoiced add-ons shipped separately from the vehicle. (GM) Like wheels and tires that dont fit well, without damage, on the transporter. Some aero equipment and some other high theft items. The invoice is the key. On the invoice.....weight accounted for.

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[richard5933]

Perhaps this will help:

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...l7-part575.pdf

It details what information is required to be published on the sticker. Apparently there is not much wiggle room regarding what the manufacturer is to post and how it's to be calculated.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by richard5933

Perhaps this will help:

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...l7-part575.pdf

It details what information is required to be published on the sticker. Apparently there is not much wiggle room regarding what the manufacturer is to post and how it's to be calculated.

Exactly; to suggest that the Mfg's information is inaccurate for payload or other limits is ridicules. Why would a mfg. submit himself to a law suite for stating if not true? But, I am sure your going to see another argument to this comming.

[SYC2Vette]

Originally Posted by richard5933

Haven't heard any mention of dealer-installed options. Those stickers are applied at the factory so they could not include the weight of items either added or deleted at the dealer.

Apparently dealers are permitted to add up to 1.5% of GVWR without revising the payload sticker number for vehicles under 6600 lb GVWR and up to a flat 100 lbs for vehicles over 6600 lb GVWR.

https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...rying-capacity