Lowering tongue weight?

[Dick tracy]

Originally Posted by richard5933

How is tongue weight meaningless? There are still all the components besides the axles to consider, including the hitch itself and the parts of the TV it's attached to. What accounts for their limitations if not the tongue weight?

I'm not aware of a 1/2 or 3/4 ton truck that isn't capable of the tongue weights of an AS. Most if not all late model FORD, Chevy, RAM 1/2 tons and larger are DESIGNED to pull Gross vehicle weights of 12-15,000 lbs, mine is designed for 18,000 combined gross weight, truck and trailer.

it seems some think the components are not capable, brakes, drive line, transmission, radiator, suspension, which is not the case.
Weigh your truck, each axle unloaded, no trailer
weigh your trailer, unloaded.
Hook up your trailer without WD and weigh each axle on the truck, then the trailer, then active the WD hitch, weigh it again.
Then load it as you would for a two week trip, weigh each axle.
Then fill your fresh water tank and weigh each axle again.
This will tell you all you need to know and you will be able to figure out the rest from this data.
I can tell you what I discovered, but that will spoil your fun.
Facts inform feelings, When you know what your setup is doing, then you will be confident in its ability to perform well.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by Dick tracy

I'm not aware of a 1/2 or 3/4 ton truck that isn't capable of the tongue weights of an AS. Most if not all late model FORD, Chevy, RAM 1/2 tons and larger are DESIGNED to pull Gross vehicle weights of 12-15,000 lbs, mine is designed for 18,000 combined gross weight, truck and trailer.

it seems some think the components are not capable, brakes, drive line, transmission, radiator, suspension, which is not the case.
Weigh your truck, each axle unloaded, no trailer
weigh your trailer, unloaded.
Hook up your trailer without WD and weigh each axle on the truck, then the trailer, then active the WD hitch, weigh it again.
Then load it as you would for a two week trip, weigh each axle.
Then fill your fresh water tank and weigh each axle again.
This will tell you all you need to know and you will be able to figure out the rest from this data.
I can tell you what I discovered, but that will spoil your fun.
Facts inform feelings, When you know what your setup is doing, then you will be confident in its ability to perform well.

I have a 3/4 ton Suburban. It's more than "capable" of pulling my 25-ft Excella. And yet I am right at the tongue weight limit of 1,000 lbs.

When I did the research, it seems that in my case the limiting factor is the rear structure of the truck and the crush/crumble zones built in. Yes, it's possible to reinforce and build a stronger hitch, but at the expense of safety in other areas.

If tongue weight truly didn't matter manufacturers would just list a cargo capacity and call it done. They list a tongue weigh limitation because it does matter, and just because we don't always know why or agree doesn't change things.

[Bobbo]

Originally Posted by Dick tracy

I'm not aware of a 1/2 or 3/4 ton truck that isn't capable of the tongue weights of an AS.

Unfortunately, many high trim heavily optioned 1/2 ton pickups have far, far less payload capacity than the tongue weight of a 30' or 33' Airstream. The Ford Raptor has a payload rating of less than 1400#. A 33' Airstream has a brochure (usually woefully low) empty tongue weight of 1000#. Add your camping stuff, and you are over without even sitting in the truck.

[Dick tracy]

Originally Posted by Bobbo

Unfortunately, many high trim heavily optioned 1/2 ton pickups have far, far less payload capacity than the tongue weight of a 30' or 33' Airstream. The Ford Raptor has a payload rating of less than 1400#. A 33' Airstream has a brochure (usually woefully low) empty tongue weight of 1000#. Add your camping stuff, and you are over without even sitting in the truck.

Maybe axle rating limit, but not the receivers tongue weight capability. I think you are confusing axle limits with tongue weight/receiver limits.
the reason 1/2 tons have limited "payload" is their front/rear axles limits and their corresponding suspensions. They are designed to carry/pull only about 65% of a similarly equipped 1 ton.
the question was about receiver weight limits, not payload.

[Dick tracy]

Originally Posted by richard5933

I have a 3/4 ton Suburban. It's more than "capable" of pulling my 25-ft Excella. And yet I am right at the tongue weight limit of 1,000 lbs.

When I did the research, it seems that in my case the limiting factor is the rear structure of the truck and the crush/crumble zones built in. Yes, it's possible to reinforce and build a stronger hitch, but at the expense of safety in other areas.

If tongue weight truly didn't matter manufacturers would just list a cargo capacity and call it done. They list a tongue weigh limitation because it does matter, and just because we don't always know why or agree doesn't change things.

Indeed, SUVs are not trucks and thus have differing limitations.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by Dick tracy

Indeed, SUVs are not trucks and thus have differing limitations.

Maybe not all SUVs, but the 3/4-ton Suburban is most certainly considered a truck by most. Not all trucks are pickups.

[Rob Edgerton]

Originally Posted by TLBNJ27

We have a 25FCRB on order, due in spring.
Will swapping AGMs to lithium lower the tongue weight as well as improving the Boondock capacity?

Any guesses on cost?
Will there be credit for AGM if done before delivery of unit?

Thanks

Another piece of input. I read through all the thread. I didn’t see anyone else mention that they have a 25RB! Most had 25FB’s. Huge difference in tongue weights for the two. It is why I own a 25RB. Tongue weight as listed in the factory spec for this model is accurate. I tow with a Toyota Sequoia and BlueOx WD. I’m not the fastest going over the Rockies, but it is a comfortable speed, and I’m not embarrassed. Stopping is not a problem.

If you want to spend money on the LiPo’s go for it. If you are intent on a lot of boondocking with the new electric fridge you will need them or a generator. My Champion dual fuel plugs into the propane port in front. I couldn’t justify the expense of solar and LiPo’s for the occasional boondocking trip.

Mine is a 2020 25FB, so I am lucky and have a propane fridge.

[Bobbo]

Originally Posted by Dick tracy

Maybe axle rating limit, but not the receivers tongue weight capability. I think you are confusing axle limits with tongue weight/receiver limits.
the reason 1/2 tons have limited "payload" is their front/rear axles limits and their corresponding suspensions. They are designed to carry/pull only about 65% of a similarly equipped 1 ton.
the question was about receiver weight limits, not payload.

Read my post again. I didn't mention receiver or tongue weight limits. I mentioned payload ratings. Payload ratings is what I meant. The payload rating is printed on the door post of all tow vehicles. It is easy to find. Now, the tongue weight of the trailer DOES count against the payload rating.

A payload rating below the tongue weight of the trailer is a non-starter regardless of what the axle ratings or receiver ratings are.

[Dick tracy]

Originally Posted by Bobbo

Read my post again. I didn't mention receiver or tongue weight limits. I mentioned payload ratings. Payload ratings is what I meant. The payload rating is printed on the door post of all tow vehicles. It is easy to find. Now, the tongue weight of the trailer DOES count against the payload rating.

A payload rating below the tongue weight of the trailer is a non-starter regardless of what the axle ratings or receiver ratings are.

Payload is based on axle ratings and are the main limiting factors of a 1/2 ton. they are designed around this notion. You will note the Gross vehicle weight on your yellow sticker is just about the same as the combined axle limits, regardless of truck, 1/2, 3/4 or 1 ton.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by Dick tracy

Payload is based on axle ratings and are the main limiting factors of a 1/2 ton. they are designed around this notion. You will note the Gross vehicle weight on your yellow sticker is just about the same as the combined axle limits, regardless of truck, 1/2, 3/4 or 1 ton.

As as been explained in many threads recently, the payload rating for a vehicle are based on more than just he axle limits. Yes, they are a major component which plays in the equation, but there is also an entire vehicle of systems that are included in these calculations.

The payload rating, in non-technical terms, is the difference between the empty weight of the vehicle and the GVWR.

GVWR may coincidentally be about the same as the combined axle limits, but that might be a result of the manufacturer choosing the axles to accommodate the rating and not a result of the axles determining the rating.

[DaveP]

My F150 max tow has a GVWR of 7200 lbs. My empty weight (actual) is 5956 lbs. My payload on the yellow sticker is 1151 lbs (not 7200-5956= 1244 lbs.)

And, besides that, the ratings on my axles are 3750 lbs (front) and 4050 lbs (rear) which sums up to 7800 lbs.

My bottom line is that the total load on the truck does not exceed 7200 lbs with weight distributions and some rear to front balancing. I do not think I can go wrong with that.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by DaveP

My F150 max tow has a GVWR of 7200 lbs. My empty weight (actual) is 5956 lbs. My payload on the yellow sticker is 1151 lbs (not 7200-5956= 1244 lbs.)

And, besides that, the ratings on my axles are 3750 lbs (front) and 4050 lbs (rear) which sums up to 7800 lbs.

My bottom line is that the total load on the truck does not exceed 7200 lbs with weight distributions and some rear to front balancing. I do not think I can go wrong with that.

Could be that the calculations on the sticker were done with an assumed driver/passenger weight which was different from how you weighed the vehicle.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by DaveP

My F150 max tow has a GVWR of 7200 lbs. My empty weight (actual) is 5956 lbs. My payload on the yellow sticker is 1151 lbs (not 7200-5956= 1244 lbs.)

And, besides that, the ratings on my axles are 3750 lbs (front) and 4050 lbs (rear) which sums up to 7800 lbs.

My bottom line is that the total load on the truck does not exceed 7200 lbs with weight distributions and some rear to front balancing. I do not think I can go wrong with that.

Towing is not the issue here; it's are "you" exceeding your vehicle "payload" numbers? If so, why? The tongue weight on my 28' is 1100lbs; actual weight on the tongue. My payload not to exceed number is 2140lbs. With gear, myself, wife, and AS loaded up, we are at 1800lbs~. I know I am within the Mfg. payload specs on our F250; with our old F150, we were way, way over payload. Because your overall weights are within max GVW, you can tell yourself anything you want; but if your exceeding the spec payload...well, your exceeding the payload, right?

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Towing is not the issue here; it's are "you" exceeding your vehicle "payload" numbers? If so, why? The tongue weight on my 28' is 1100lbs; actual weight on the tongue. My payload not to exceed number is 2140lbs. With gear, myself, wife, and AS loaded up, we are at 1800lbs~. I know I am within the Mfg. payload specs on our F250; with our old F150, we were way, way over payload. Because your overall weights are within max GVW, you can tell yourself anything you want; but if your exceeding the spec payload...well, your exceeding the payload, right?

And taking this a bit further, even if you stay within the spec payload it matters where you carry it. Put the max spec payload largely behind the rear axle by carrying a pallet of engine parts or the like, and you'll likely experience some dangerous handling/braking behaviors.

[DaveP]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Towing is not the issue here; it's are "you" exceeding your vehicle "payload" numbers? If so, why? The tongue weight on my 28' is 1100lbs; actual weight on the tongue. My payload not to exceed number is 2140lbs. With gear, myself, wife, and AS loaded up, we are at 1800lbs~. I know I am within the Mfg. payload specs on our F250; with our old F150, we were way, way over payload. Because your overall weights are within max GVW, you can tell yourself anything you want; but if your exceeding the spec payload...well, your exceeding the payload, right?

I have not been focused on the payload level, but I am actually pretty close. I am currently at a payload of 1200 lbs fully loaded (wife, me, dog, generator, weight distribution, 36 gallons of gas, etc). I need to lose 49 lbs. For my next trip, I’ll have to leave the dog home, or move 49 lbs to a neutral point in the trailer.

BTW, my factory hitch is rated for 1050 lbs. The tongue weight on my 28 foot is approximately 875 lbs measured with a scale and fully loaded. I replaced the lead acid batteries under the couch with lithium which removed about 160 lbs from the front of the trailer.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by tlars

If the Tongue weight limit is determined by the load on the hitch and attachment point. That would make sense. The load sure goes through the roof when pulling out of some drives with a deep valley. It surely must be a consideration. I'll go back to "then why not two tongue weights?" One for WD based on the load on the hitch attachment point and one for with out a WD hitch with the static load directly down on the hitch (affecting the front to back leveling of the TV). Your point does support Andy and his reinforcement of the receiver attachment to the TV allowing for tongue weight exceeding the TV rating.

I don't want this to be an argument, just that it does not make sense to me. I tow within all load limits. Tongue weight, TV axle loads, TV payload, trailer gross weight. My TV has a max tow capacity of 7700 and a max tongue weight of 770 which looks just a bit arbitrary. Does that not look like 10% of the trailers weight should be on the tongue? Again, not an argument but a discussion.

Your vehicle was designed in Germany, by engineers working under German law. They can't use WD. They are thus very unlikely to design for WD, and provide two ratings. They allow the use of WD, but they don't give you any credit for it in terms of different ratings. This isn't just Mercedes, it is true of other Euro SUV manufacturers as well.

Arbitrary? There is a Mercedes GLE model rated 7716 maximum trailer capacity with a rated tongue weight maximum of 617.3 lbs. 8%, coincidentally. When they changed to 10%, they went to 770 lbs tongue weight. Stick with the axle weight ratings, including the higher axle weight rating you have for when towing.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by richard5933

I have a 3/4 ton Suburban. It's more than "capable" of pulling my 25-ft Excella. And yet I am right at the tongue weight limit of 1,000 lbs.

When I did the research, it seems that in my case the limiting factor is the rear structure of the truck and the crush/crumble zones built in. Yes, it's possible to reinforce and build a stronger hitch, but at the expense of safety in other areas.

Far more likely that the hitch tongue weight limits were influenced by the cost accountants. Heavier (and stronger) hitches cost more. Fortunately, there is a solution for that. No custom fabrication required.

There are aftermarket hitches available for your specific vehicle, rated for more tongue weight.

Crush zones aren't much of a factor for rear impact on vehicles heavier than the passenger car regulations cover.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by jcl

Far more likely that the hitch tongue weight limits were influenced by the cost accountants. Heavier (and stronger) hitches cost more. Fortunately, there is a solution for that. No custom fabrication required.

There are aftermarket hitches available for your specific vehicle, rated for more tongue weight.

Crush zones aren't much of a factor for rear impact on vehicles heavier than the passenger car regulations cover.

I know that others hitches are available to increase the ability to carry tongue weight. Did bean counters get involved? I'm sure they did. But it also seems that they were going for something else as well by using a more integrated hitch which would have some 'give' in a rear-end collision.

I have vague recollection that at one point in recent history there was a concern about the tow hitches on the rear of some vehicles causing undue damage/injury to the car behind them during a collision and that this hitch design was an attempt to mitigate that.

The modifications to increase the tongue load are not something I care to address right now, at least not on a 1999 3/4-ton Suburban with only 50,000 miles and virtually zero rust.

[tlars]

Originally Posted by jcl

Your vehicle was designed in Germany, by engineers working under German law. They can't use WD. They are thus very unlikely to design for WD, and provide two ratings. They allow the use of WD, but they don't give you any credit for it in terms of different ratings. This isn't just Mercedes, it is true of other Euro SUV manufacturers as well.

Arbitrary? There is a Mercedes GLE model rated 7716 maximum trailer capacity with a rated tongue weight maximum of 617.3 lbs. 8%, coincidentally. When they changed to 10%, they went to 770 lbs tongue weight. Stick with the axle weight ratings, including the higher axle weight rating you have for when towing.

Again, not arguing, just trying to get to the bottom of this. And I know we won't. Non German TV have two tongue weight specifications. Is that true? I had to order my car because the hitch is built into the car at the time of manufacturing (no add ons) I was told it was due to the force exerted on the car from the WD hitch. Somewhere on this forum I believe I read that any trailer over 3500lbs is assumed to require WD hitch. That does not make sense as a big dually would hardly know something is back there WD or not. By Arbitrary, i mean exactly as you stated. They simply took 10% max trailer weight. That sounds arbitrary to me. I have towed the 23FB without a WD hitch locally. The car reads about 3 deg nose up. It certainly was not designed to drive like that at highway speeds so I must assume the 770 lb tongue weight requires a WD hitch.

[richard5933]

Sounds like you're looking for definitive answers to a question with variable answers.

Not all manufacturers calculate things the same way, and there is even variation between various models in the same company. Comparing vehicles sold in different markets seems fraught with problems since its very difficult to know all hidden differences in materials and in standards. Some have different numbers with/without WD. Some allow it, some don't. Etc.

There is no one right answer, but there are some wrong ones - like choosing to only follow some of the manufacturer's limits and ignore the rest.