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Old 01-22-2022, 04:54 PM   #201
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We're all guessing. That's my point. If the manufacturer doesn't provide the information it's all a guess.

Some are better at guessing than others, some not so much.
The word guessing sounds dismissive when discussing a professional business who has set up thousands of similar vehicles over many years. They aren't the vehicle manufacturer. They can't provide manufacturer's ratings. But their success illustrates that the manufacturers have not necessarily rated some vehicles at the maximum capability. Particularly those vehicles that come in variations with very different tow ratings (eg Odyssey and Ridgeline in the case of Honda).
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Old 01-23-2022, 08:15 AM   #202
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The word guessing sounds dismissive when discussing a professional business who has set up thousands of similar vehicles over many years. They aren't the vehicle manufacturer. They can't provide manufacturer's ratings. But their success illustrates that the manufacturers have not necessarily rated some vehicles at the maximum capability. Particularly those vehicles that come in variations with very different tow ratings (eg Odyssey and Ridgeline in the case of Honda).
You are missing one consideration factor which goes into the mfr durability testing and the specs which result (or are targeted, would be better) The last I heard, several years ago, was GM durability testing to 250k for most items. Duramax is 500k. So set aside safety, or the tv just rolling over and playing dead with a heavy load.

We don't hear anything from these modified vehicle owners at high mileages. I suspect one would find a higher incidence of "major" issues than the general population of like vehicles.

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Old 01-23-2022, 10:46 AM   #203
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Missed it again

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When using the SAE J2807 towing standard you can't just go by towing capacity and say you are within the SAE J2807 standard. The J2807 also states they use a 10% tongue weight and if you exceed the GVWR you fail the J2807 standards for safe towing.

The SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) J2807 States the exceed in GVWR is reason to fail towing test. (Par 5.4)
http://fifthwheelst.com/documents/to...ds-2016-02.pdf
I think you missed TWO key points:
1 - The OTHER relevant point, meaning one that had yet to be discussed and certainly not the ONLY relevant point.
2 - My setup is under ALL the specified limits at each axle.

The point of my comment was - trucks designed/engineered to handle a combined weight of (fill in yours) have brakes, axles, transmissions, drive lines, suspensions and receivers chosen to safely perform the task.
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Old 01-23-2022, 10:52 AM   #204
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Yep, thats what I said

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If a vehicle has a factory rated 10,000 lb tow capacity, all the associated elements have been tested at that load, possibly using the SAE tow test standard. They have been selected to achieve that, but that doesn't necessarily mean that those elements define the maximum capability. It defines the maximum that the manufacturer tested it at.

Use the trailer weight element. If a vehicle is rated to two 10,000 lbs with a bumper pull hitch, without WD, but 15,000 lbs with a gooseneck trailer, just as an example, then the powertrain has been designed to tow 15,000 lbs, not 10,000 lbs. It is the same powertrain, just a different hitch arrangement.

The fact that pickups have different ratings for different hitch designs suggests that axle loading and towing stability are the limits for a bumper pull hitch, whether it has WD or not. And given that the SAE test does not optimize the WD setup, it puts the limit used in that test protocol in doubt.

That said, with a recent model pickup, I think that the North American manufacturers have worked to maximize their tow ratings, so that they can advertise towing capability, sometimes even exceeding what is prudent. It is when we get to vehicles other than pickups that have not been pushed in terms of tow ratings, where this debate usually diverges. The pickup crowd will point out that the manufacturer will go to the maximum possible, and they are probably correct for that vehicle.
Exactly.
It would surely be nice to finally put this discussion behind us, it seems it is discussed every month.
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Old 01-23-2022, 11:29 AM   #205
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You are missing one consideration factor which goes into the mfr durability testing and the specs which result (or are targeted, would be better) The last I heard, several years ago, was GM durability testing to 250k for most items. Duramax is 500k. So set aside safety, or the tv just rolling over and playing dead with a heavy load.

We don't hear anything from these modified vehicle owners at high mileages. I suspect one would find a higher incidence of "major" issues than the general population of like vehicles.

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A couple of thoughts.

Yes, durability can be a factor.

The advantage with recreational towing vs heavy duty use is that often towing miles are a proportion of total vehicle miles, and not all of them. With modern powertrain, we typically aren’t seeing engines and transmissions wear out, and this then define the vehicle serviceable life or overhaul interval, but rather failure of complicated and expensive to repair systems, usually electronic ones, which make it uneconomical to keep operating, or unreliable enough to cause the vehicle to be retired. Often with an engine that has lots of useful life left. That was the case with our X3, which we sold at 12 years and 200,000 km due to the cost of required non-powertrain repairs. I didn’t have the energy to repair it myself. The engine didn’t use a drop of oil and ran great.

With heavy duty equipment, where we sold guaranteed maintenance contracts (up to 60,000 operating hours) we didn’t use hours, or miles, to estimate overhaul indicators. We used gallons of fuel burned, which varied by equipment model. Work it harder, overhaul it sooner. That worked well for engines. Transmissions didn’t exhibit the same relationship, the overhaul intervals there were better matched to the number of lifetime shifts. While the numbers would be different, the concepts applied to a tow vehicle are interesting.

1) If fuel consumption doubled when towing, that could imply half the serviceable life from the engine. If towing accounted for 10 or 20% of the miles driven, that would calculate to a much smaller impact. And it would be more relevant if engine wear out defined the serviceable life.
2). The negative impact of a automatic transmission hunting for gears on a pull can be very harsh. Hence tow modes that are designed to eliminate this hunting.

The heavy loaded higher mileage towing examples I know of include poster withidl, with his 100,000 miles of X5 operation, 30% towing an AS31. It was heavy, around 9000 lbs IIRC, with its custom built-in Onan generator. The many examples of oilfield hotshot drivers with the Cummins diesel in RAM Hd pickups, towing gooseneck trailers well over manufacturer weight recommendations, op for hundreds of thousands of miles, are another data point. A third example would be the fleet of passenger vehicles towing heavy Airstreams year over year in trailer delivery service at CanAm.
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Old 01-24-2022, 03:31 AM   #206
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Our 2014 Dodge Caravan has spent most of its life going to Indiana. There it is loaded to the ceiling with parts and connected to a trailer that is harder to tow than any Airstream. It has 180,000 miles on it and has never needed a major repair. As well it only cost $20,000 to purchase in 2014.

Our 2007 Mercedes Diesel gets to tow the trailers the caravan can’t it also has 180,000 miles on it. We have not touched the driveline. Just about everything else electronic though.
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Old 01-24-2022, 09:32 AM   #207
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Note that they test with no trailer brakes because trailer brakes can fail and the TV needs to be able to handle it. And yes, CanAm is guessing. And to assume you know that the manufacturers of a vehicle randomly slapped a number on the vehicle limits out of ignorance is just crazy. As I have stated, you seem to have no idea the extensive amount of testing these companies carry out.
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Old 01-24-2022, 09:43 AM   #208
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And yes, CanAm is guessing. And to assume you know that the manufacturers of a vehicle randomly slapped a number on the vehicle limits out of ignorance is just crazy. As I have stated, you seem to have no idea the extensive amount of testing these companies carry out.
Respectfully, I disagree with your assessment of his comments. I don't see where he's stated that Can Am RV is guessing or that the manufacturer's are being ignorant. I think he offers quite a bit of knowledge on vehicle testing compared to my knowledge.
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Old 01-24-2022, 10:11 AM   #209
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Probably this is going back to my comment about guessing. Like I said than, it seems to me that some have a much more educated guess, others not so much. Perhaps guessing wasn't the most correct way to phrase it. Educated guess? Informed assumptions? Not sure what term would be better to describe someone coming up with new numbers without all the relevant information which was available to manufacturers.

If we assume that the manufacturer has done research and testing to derive the numbers they publish on the stickers, making changes to these numbers without knowing the details of the research and testing will invariably involve working with unknowns. To me this comes under the category of guesswork.

Of course, if someone is going to run the tow vehicle through the same testing as the manufacturer to derive their new numbers and have access to the same research on all the parts which went into manufacturer, then we have something totally different and which I could comfortably say deserves equal weight to the manufacturer's numbers.
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Old 01-24-2022, 10:38 AM   #210
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Would that make every RV owner setting up their WDH without the confirmation of a CAT scale, or similar, one who is participating in guess work?
They're utilizing a tool that was designed for a very specific reason yet failing to confirm the results by excluding the most important step, in favour of guesswork such as eyeballing 'squat' or test driving the vehicle to see 'how she feels'.
In this case, should we completely disregard their 'years of towing experience' and state that they are simply guessing?
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Old 01-24-2022, 10:57 AM   #211
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Note that they test with no trailer brakes because trailer brakes can fail and the TV needs to be able to handle it. And yes, CanAm is guessing. And to assume you know that the manufacturers of a vehicle randomly slapped a number on the vehicle limits out of ignorance is just crazy. As I have stated, you seem to have no idea the extensive amount of testing these companies carry out.
The issue to me is whether the SAE tow rating testing standard and associated rating ensures safe operation, as was suggested. The brake test you refer to in the SAE rating test standard is from 20 mph to stopped. Nothing higher. And it forbids separate sway control devices. If you base your definition of safe towing on that test standard, you just need to make sure that you never exceed 20 mph when towing, and don’t add on a sway control device. If you do exceed that speed, fine (I do as well). But the rating is no longer under the same conditions, and if you assume it defines safe conditions and that the rating is equally valid, I suggest that means you are now guessing. I just don’t consider the SAE tow rating test standard to be particularly helpful in terms of defining the maximum safe towing weight. It is useful for comparison shopping purposes, eg vehicle a exhibits more capability than vehicle b.

Nobody claimed that the manufacturer slapped a random number on a vehicle out of ignorance, that is your phrase. But the manufacturer didn’t necessarily test many different ratings to decide what rating to work towards for. If they pick a rating as a design target, for whatever reason (that is what you called random, I think), whether to be competitive in the market or to meet marketing’s goal, they then test to validate that the vehicle can comply with the chosen rating. The tow test standard doesn’t define safety, it simply says how to conduct that validation test. And if the requirements defined for the product don’t demand a higher rating value, then they don’t need to rest at that higher load.

There seems to be some confusion about whether the SAE test standard determines the rating, eg it leads to a specific number. What it does is validate a number that was nominated.

If the manufacturer sees a high tow rating as a marketing advantage, and I think the North American pickup manufacturers do, they will work to maximize the rating and validate as high a rating as they can, balancing that objective with the cost of achieving a higher rating. Costs will play a huge part in this. If a manufacturer of a sedan or an SUV decides to offer a nominal hitch tow rating, as often as not so that customers can mount a bike rack, they will test to validate that rating, whether they decide to follow the SAE procedure or not. The decision not to go for a higher rating is not random, it is economic. It may appear random to you.
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Old 01-24-2022, 12:04 PM   #212
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Would that make every RV owner setting up their WDH without the confirmation of a CAT scale, or similar, one who is participating in guess work?
They're utilizing a tool that was designed for a very specific reason yet failing to confirm the results by excluding the most important step, in favour of guesswork such as eyeballing 'squat' or test driving the vehicle to see 'how she feels'.
In this case, should we completely disregard their 'years of towing experience' and state that they are simply guessing?
To me, sometimes it is. Some RV owners just guess.

I never said that guesswork is always wrong and even said that some are much better at it than others. But call it what it is. If you hook up your WDH and don't do the proper checks afterwards you're guessing. Your guess may be quite accurate and based on decades of experience, or it may not be.

Those proper checks can be a number of things, depending on the specs of the hitch and the rig involved. A hitch manufacturer may specify a particular return of front TV height, a particular weight distribution, etc. If you've followed the instructions then you're not guessing. If you know your trailer's tongue weight because you weighed it then you're not guessing. If you took out the tape measure and followed the hitch manufacturer's instructions to confirm the WDH setting you're not guess. Even with following the basic instructions provided with the WDH, it's often possible to fine tune even more with trip to the scales where you'll know the specifics of how your rig is configured and to what degree the WDH is helping.
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Old 01-24-2022, 12:15 PM   #213
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The issue to me is whether the SAE tow rating testing standard and associated rating ensures safe operation, as was suggested. The brake test you refer to in the SAE rating test standard is from 20 mph to stopped. Nothing higher. And it forbids separate sway control devices. If you base your definition of safe towing on that test standard, you just need to make sure that you never exceed 20 mph when towing, and don’t add on a sway control device. If you do exceed that speed, fine (I do as well). But the rating is no longer under the same conditions, and if you assume it defines safe conditions and that the rating is equally valid, I suggest that means you are now guessing. ....
What you're saying only would apply in a world where the SAE standards (or any other standards which are used for this similar measurements) aren't designed to test something which is known to have a wide range of applications. What you're saying would only apply if you assume that the people who developed the standards were testing on the assumption that a vehicle could only be considered safe when towing in the exact same conditions as the test. We all know that's not the case - the people who developed these tests are well aware of the wide range of applications, towing speeds, road varieties, trailer shapes/sizes etc. which are out there. We are also well aware that when standards like these are developed there is work done to be able to extrapolate the data to a wider range of situations and to apply it more broadly.

You could make the same argument for any automotive standard out there. When they test windshields they use a particular size object lobbed at a windshield at a particular speed (or from a specific height). Does that mean that the windshield is only safe if it encounters the same size object and only at that particular speed?
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Old 01-24-2022, 02:14 PM   #214
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To me, sometimes it is. Some RV owners just guess.

I never said that guesswork is always wrong and even said that some are much better at it than others. But call it what it is. If you hook up your WDH and don't do the proper checks afterwards you're guessing. Your guess may be quite accurate and based on decades of experience, or it may not be.

Guess
Definition: to give an answer to a particular question when you do not have all the facts and so cannot be certain if you are correct.

I imagine the very first time someone willing to tow outside the manufacturer's specifications did so, they were guessing. However, after decades of experience doing so, I wouldn't refer to what they do as guessing. I'd consider the results of said experience to be quite accurate.
What is confusing to me is when some forum members appear to be quite comfortable 'eyeballing' their own setup for 'squat' or test driving their setup to 'see how it feels' and yet call out someone with decades of towing experience when they don't 'follow the instructions'.
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Old 01-24-2022, 02:31 PM   #215
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Guess
Definition: to give an answer to a particular question when you do not have all the facts and so cannot be certain if you are correct.

I imagine the very first time someone willing to tow outside the manufacturer's specifications did so, they were guessing. However, after decades of experience doing so, I wouldn't refer to what they do as guessing. I'd consider the results of said experience to be quite accurate.
What is confusing to me is when some forum members appear to be quite comfortable 'eyeballing' their own setup for 'squat' or test driving their setup to 'see how it feels' and yet call out someone with decades of towing experience when they don't 'follow the instructions'.
Not sure who you're talking about, but I've been pretty clear that I'm using scales and weighing things. I believe that most who have been on the side of following the manufacturer's numbers have also been on the side of using scales and checking facts and not just eyeballing things.

If someone guesses their first time doing something and succeeds, and then continues to repeat that and have success, it is true that their actions become less guesswork and more informed. But only for that particular setup and circumstances. Using that data to perform similar experiments with other tow vehicles is starting the process all over again. Perhaps with a more informed guess, but to me each new vehicle brings with it a new set of unknowns which must be tested and verified.
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Old 01-24-2022, 02:44 PM   #216
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Not sure who you're talking about, but I've been pretty clear that I'm using scales and weighing things. I believe that most who have been on the side of following the manufacturer's numbers have also been on the side of using scales and checking facts and not just eyeballing things.

If someone guesses their first time doing something and succeeds, and then continues to repeat that and have success, it is true that their actions become less guesswork and more informed. But only for that particular setup and circumstances. Using that data to perform similar experiments with other tow vehicles is starting the process all over again. Perhaps with a more informed guess, but to me each new vehicle brings with it a new set of unknowns which must be tested and verified.
I wasn't referring to you specifically.
Do those same folks hit the scales every single time they tow?
While some variables can remain the same, others can easily and Change significantly.
I'd imagine every time they tow they learn how to judge their weights and weight distribution, and only hit the scales when they estimate that they're loaded differently.
After all, with the same TV and TT, there are only so many places to put things.
With access to tire load ratings, axle ratings, GVWR's, payloads, brake sizes, details of suspension designs etc, I would assume that an intelligent professional would quickly learn what to look for when considering a TV and TT setup that falls anywhere outside the realm of the manufacturer's specifications, just as the owner quickly learns which load looks right and which requires a trip to the scales for confirmation.
I'm perplexed by some forum members whom chose to vilify the former while patting the latter on the back.
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Old 01-24-2022, 05:36 PM   #217
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No I don't use the scales every time I tow. I have 3170 pounds of payload with me and the wife and the stuff I carry in the truck I still have over 2400 pounds of payload. I pull 28 foot AS with loaded tongue weight between 900 and 1000 pounds and GVWR of 8200 pounds. I do weight once a year just to check the GVWR on the AS. First leg of every trip I check the front unloaded and loaded load height and insure they are within spec.

If I run so close that I have to weight the truck and AS every trip I would buy. different truck. If I want to throw in some additional wood or generator I don't have to worry about the payload of my truck.
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Old 01-24-2022, 06:03 PM   #218
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Probably this is going back to my comment about guessing. Like I said than, it seems to me that some have a much more educated guess, others not so much. Perhaps guessing wasn't the most correct way to phrase it. Educated guess? Informed assumptions? Not sure what term would be better to describe someone coming up with new numbers without all the relevant information which was available to manufacturers.

If we assume that the manufacturer has done research and testing to derive the numbers they publish on the stickers, making changes to these numbers without knowing the details of the research and testing will invariably involve working with unknowns. To me this comes under the category of guesswork.

Of course, if someone is going to run the tow vehicle through the same testing as the manufacturer to derive their new numbers and have access to the same research on all the parts which went into manufacturer, then we have something totally different and which I could comfortably say deserves equal weight to the manufacturer's numbers.


Hi Richard.
We would never accept the handling standards that the automakers find acceptable. Some of the worst handling tow vehicles you can buy have high tow ratings. Other truly excellent handling tow vehicles have little or no rating.

If you examine the actual vehicle specs not just the tow rating it is often obvious.

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Old 01-24-2022, 06:10 PM   #219
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Some of the worst handling tow vehicles you can buy have high tow ratings. Other truly excellent handling tow vehicles have little or no rating.

If you examine the actual vehicle specs not just the tow rating it is often obvious.

Andy
Andy,

For those forum members who haven’t taken the time to read any of your articles or blog posts, would you mind explaining what you mean by “handling”?

Sadly, I feel that too many consider the lack of any squat visible to the naked eye, headlights seeming to point straight enough at night and not ‘even knowing the trailer is back there’ to be all there is to good handling characteristics in a tow vehicle.
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Old 01-25-2022, 05:57 AM   #220
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Andy,

For those forum members who haven’t taken the time to read any of your articles or blog posts, would you mind explaining what you mean by “handling”?

Sadly, I feel that too many consider the lack of any squat visible to the naked eye, headlights seeming to point straight enough at night and not ‘even knowing the trailer is back there’ to be all there is to good handling characteristics in a tow vehicle.
Hey, my Miata handles like a dream but I'm not hooking my 27' Airstream to it. And yes, I have read Andy's articles. I respect what he is doing but he has stated that he does not treat the GVWR as a hard cap. That, right there, would prevent me from ever using or recommending that someone follow his guidance. We can all make something work in ideal or near-ideal situations but manufacturers have to design, test and build for worst-case scenarios. This is why they do cold weather tests in ridiculously cold temperatures that 99% of the people who buy their vehicle will never encounter. I get his gist that a lower center of gravity has some advantages in specific situations, but IMHO (as an engineer with an advanced degree) he uses that specific situation to solve a problem while creating others.

I tried to look up Andy's education but have not found it. Since he is following this thread perhaps he could let us know. Is he a Professional Engineer? Has he worked in vehicle design before? Thank you.
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