Flying Cloud 23CB - Fridge Problems

[CruizinDux]

Just to add to the options...
This is a link to two posts made by rich that i had saved.
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f382...ml#post1856439

The idea being to swap the button stat mounted on the fins to one with a lower threshold. The fan comes on earlier so starts cooling at a loser threshold not giving the refer a chance to tun up. I'm not sure what the oem threshold is but i have heard 100 to 130.

http://senasys.com/product/snap-disc...irstream-mount

I'm thinking this ma be a good stratgey when i add fan #2
B

[Josephine517]

Originally Posted by CruizinDux

Just to add to the options...

This is a link to two posts made by rich that i had saved.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f382...ml#post1856439



The idea being to swap the button stat mounted on the fins to one with a lower threshold. The fan comes on earlier so starts cooling at a loser threshold not giving the refer a chance to tun up. I'm not sure what the oem threshold is but i have heard 100 to 130.



http://senasys.com/product/snap-disc...irstream-mount



I'm thinking this ma be a good stratgey when i add fan #2

B

I did exactly that. I added fan 2 to blow out the upper vent on a 90 degree thermostat. I placed the thermostat for fan 2 a few inches below the center of the heat fins. I left the OME fan where it was, near the center half way up on the back of the refrigerator but move its 130 degree thermostat to upper right beside the heat fins and a few inches above the heat stack. This weeks 90-95 degree daytime temps and 68-70 night time temps shows its works well. Running on propane Fan 2 came on as outside temps reached 80 degrees inside refrigerator stayed below 33 degrees. As the outside temperature went above 90 the OME fan kicked on. Temps inside the refrigerator went up a little but held at 37 degrees. The OME fan turned off some time during the night. By morning outside temperature was 70 degrees, fan 2 was still running and refrigerator was at 23 degrees. For this test I had no added ice in the refrigerator section.

One other trick to keep the refrigerator in the food safe zone. Never put warm items in it. Not even a room temperature bottle of water. It will kill the refrigerator and take hours to recover. Pre chill everything. Another trick we do is add ice to the crisper drawer to help with cooling if we are getting in and out of the refrigerator a lot.

Also want to add: I ran this test for three days without trailer AC on and was opening and closing the refrigerator to check refrigerator interior temperature. Camper was parked in my driveway under full sun and street side awning stowed.

And one more observation. Freezer gets the coolant first. Don’t try to make ice cubes or put unfrozen items in the freezer section during a hot day. During one of our trips I put some purchased ice that was starting to melt in the freezer section. That caused the refrigerator section to warm up to 42 degrees while the freezer refroze the ice. Lesson learned.

[CruizinDux]

Originally Posted by Josephine517

I did exactly that. I added fan 2 to blow out the upper vent on a 90 degree thermostat. I placed the thermostat for fan 2 a few inches below the center of the heat fins. I left the OME fan where it was, near the center half way up on the back of the refrigerator but move its 130 degree thermostat to upper right beside the heat fins and a few inches above the heat stack. This weeks 90-95 degree daytime temps and 68-70 night time temps shows its works well. Running on propane Fan 2 came on as outside temps reached 80 degrees inside refrigerator stayed below 33 degrees. As the outside temperature went above 90 the OME fan kicked on. Temps inside the refrigerator went up a little but held at 37 degrees. The OME fan turned off some time during the night. By morning outside temperature was 70 degrees, fan 2 was still running and refrigerator was at 23 degrees. For this test I had no added ice in the refrigerator section.

One other trick to keep the refrigerator in the food safe zone. Never put warm items in it. Not even a room temperature bottle of water. It will kill the refrigerator and take hours to recover. Pre chill everything. Another trick we do is add ice to the crisper drawer to help with cooling if we are getting in and out of the refrigerator a lot.

Also want to add: I ran this test for three days without trailer AC on and was opening and closing the refrigerator to check refrigerator interior temperature. Camper was parked in my driveway under full sun and street side awning stowed.

And one more observation. Freezer gets the coolant first. Don’t try to make ice cubes or put unfrozen items in the freezer section during a hot day. During one of our trips I put some purchased ice that was starting to melt in the freezer section. That caused the refrigerator section to warm up to 42 degrees while the freezer refroze the ice. Lesson learned.

Josephine 517, great post, thanks. I was thinking of the 2 stat configuration last night, but looking at the fins...pretty tight...not sure about getting driling/self tapping the screws.

Any chance you can post a pic?
B

Edit...re reading are your stats screwed to the cooling fins or simply positioned to trigger from ambient temp?

[Josephine517]

Originally Posted by CruizinDux

Josephine 517, great post, thanks. I was thinking of the 2 stat configuration last night, but looking at the fins...pretty tight...not sure about getting driling/self tapping the screws.

Any chance you can post a pic?
B

Edit...re reading are your stats screwed to the cooling fins or simply positioned to trigger from ambient temp?

I used two way tape to stick the thermostat to the back of the refrigerator. It was too tight to screw into the fin. I can send a pic after I get off work this evening

[CruizinDux]

Great thanks.

B

FWIW, here is my current setup with fan upgrade a couple of years ago. Oem stat is in the upper right corner. Post 282

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f425...ml#post2286437

When i reconfigure for #2 i think I'll inch up #1 a tad. May rethink some cowling but don't want to hinder the natural (if any) natural upflow when the fan is not active.

[aftermath]

Originally Posted by JRDT

...
On this forum, I have been accused of not being an RV person and that this is a minor issue. I have no problem with things breaking and having to take the RV in for service. I understand this is part of RV ownership. But, I do have a problem with these authorized repair facilities, that are recommended by AS and Dometic, who keep telling me that there is nothing wrong. Everything checks out. There is nothing more they can do!

So I can add a fan. But how many ... one, two, three, four, five. I can also create a baffle and direct the warm air from the furnace out the vent. But, will it work? I am not sure.
...

JRDT, just want you to know that I understand where you are coming from. Those that are quick to criticize you as unwilling or unable to do repairs on your trailer are way out of line. Of course all trailers will have wear and tear issues down the road and if you can't fix a loose screw on a cabinet door then you are not going to "feel the joy" of owning a trailer, any kind of trailer.


When you spend a lot of cash on a brand new Airstream you are not asking too much to expect that everything works as it goes out the door. Airstream needs to make this right. Adding a fan? OK, that sounds like the solution but as you pointed out above, how do you actually do this in a proper manner and WHY should you as a new owner be expected to do this? I purchased my 25FB used in 2009 and have never had a problem with the fridge but....it is a full sized one that vents out the roof. I had a 21ft white box before with a similar fridge and loved having it. After I owned our Airstream I noticed that you had to get a 25 or larger if you wanted a full sized fridge. The smaller ones were in the other ones and they cost about three times the price as my small white box. Now, I read stories about your problem and agree with you.....it is simply not right. Have you taken the trailer back to the dealer you purchased it from? Have you contacted Airstream? Hopefully you will get a solution. I would love to hear what happens in the end.

[Josephine517]

Originally Posted by Josephine517

I used two way tape to stick the thermostat to the back of the refrigerator. It was too tight to screw into the fin. I can send a pic after I get off work this evening

Doesn’t seem I can post a picture but as I said I used two way tape to attach the thermostats. I went through three stages to fix the airstream design problem. The OME set up used one fan half way up on back of the refrigerator with a 130 degree thermostat attached to the fan. Refrigerator fails when temps went above 80 outside. I added a fan 2 to blow out the heat exhaust from the upper vent. Refrigerator then worked up to 90 degrees outside before failure. The OME fan still rarely turned on. Also notice using a finely calibrated tool, my hand, that a heat pocket was forming in the upper section back of the refrigerator even with fan 2 on. That’s when, using a heat gun and temperature gun, found the OME fan will not turn on until temps reach 130 degrees. I rewired the OME fan to run off the fan 2 thermostat. Then both fans would turn on and off at the same time. Refrigerator worked all summer configured this way. I thought about adding a baffle along the top of the refrigerator but space is extremely tight. But two fans running bothered me when maybe only one was needed. Since Ohio had an unusual heat wave this week I rewired again and move the OME thermostat from the fan bracket to the upper right near the first heat fin and reattached the OME fan to it. With the refrigerator set to run on propane fan 2 came on first as temperatures outside went above 80. As temperatures outside went above 90 the OME fan kicked on. By morning the outside temperature was 70 and the OME fan was off and fan 2 still running. Refrigerator interior temperatures stayed in the safe zone. Three consecutive days with outside temperatures in the 90 and great refrigerator performance. I haven’t tested in the wild yet but feel confident this setup will work. I also wired in quick connect/disconnect so I can put the OME back on fan 2 if I want without rewiring.

[CruizinDux]

J517. I'm not sure of your dometic but it sounds like of a newer one where the OEM fan is mounted horizontally midway between the upper opening and the lower opening. Is that correct? That is why i asked for a pic.

Our OEM was mounted vertically by a channel bracket at the top of the upper opening and later converted to tensioned support when the new rubber screws were sawed off by burrs left in the OEM install. I have thought about adding fan 2 horizontally as above but had not as i suspected it may hinder natural up air flow when the stat was open/fan off. Your f2 is where my OEM installed, correct? See link above.

Until recently, regardless of location F2 was to be wired to the same state, but maybe with a toggle at f2 if i only wanted/needed 1 fan.


Now to the stats. Doubled sided tape to attach. So you're triggering off ambient air temp vs the temp of the metal cooling fins, correct. Not good/bad idea, but just a calibration/comparison process to understand for a successful design and ordering the stat with the best set points.

I think i need to get my hands on a couple of moveable thermometers like i use in the coach and more recently in the refer, to accurately access temps in the wall cavity and a good infrared gun to know accurately the temp of the fins at time of switch on/off.

Thank you for sharing your experience. While it is all about airflow, i think more accurately it is the set point temp(S) that initiate that air flow. Different set points for different fans i think is as important as the location of F1 and F2.
Bob

[Josephine517]

Originally Posted by CruizinDux

J517. I'm not sure of your dometic but it sounds like of a newer one where the OEM fan is mounted horizontally midway between the upper opening and the lower opening. Is that correct? That is why i asked for a pic.

Our OEM was mounted vertically by a channel bracket at the top of the upper opening and later converted to tensioned support when the new rubber screws were sawed off by burrs left in the OEM install. I have thought about adding fan 2 horizontally as above but had not as i suspected it may hinder natural up air flow when the stat was open/fan off. Your f2 is where my OEM installed, correct? See link above.

Until recently, regardless of location F2 was to be wired to the same state, but maybe with a toggle at f2 if i only wanted/needed 1 fan.


Now to the stats. Doubled sided tape to attach. So you're triggering off ambient air temp vs the temp of the metal cooling fins, correct. Not good/bad idea, but just a calibration/comparison process to understand for a successful design and ordering the stat with the best set points.

I think i need to get my hands on a couple of moveable thermometers like i use in the coach and more recently in the refer, to accurately access temps in the wall cavity and a good infrared gun to know accurately the temp of the fins at time of switch on/off.

Thank you for sharing your experience. While it is all about airflow, i think more accurately it is the set point temp(S) that initiate that air flow. Different set points for different fans i think is as important as the location of F1 and F2.
Bob

You are correct my fan 1 is horizontal between the two the two vent openings. That’s also where it’s 130 degree thermostat was originally located. By the time that fan turned on we were already throwing food away. I kept fan 1 in its original location but moved its 130 deg thermostat to the upper right near the first heat fin. This fan draws air from the lower vent and blows up allowing fan 2 to blow the hot air out the upper vent. In 90 deg weather the air moving out through the upper vent felt very warm. The two fans running together definitely works to maintain food safe temperatures.

This week I was trying to fine tune the on off points to reduce battery load. The fan 2 comes on at a good time but it’s off time is a little longer than I would like. Fan 2 was still running when in the 68-70 degree morning. I couldn’t find the perfect location for the fan 2 thermostat to turn off and decided the turn on position was more important.

I also installed a power on/off switch in the rear refrigerator compartment for the fan 2 circuit so I can manually turn it off. Fan 1 as wired right now runs independently from fan 2 so it will still turn on when temperatures reach 130 degrees even if fan 2 is manually turned off.

Perhaps both fans running off the 130 degree thermostat would achieve a better on off performance if the thermostat is mounted directly on the heat fin... But then again maybe it will also be to slow to turn off.

Right now I have a setup that I know works, but perhaps could be more finely tuned. I like the on times for both fans. I like the off time for fan 1. Fan 2 runs a little longer than needed. And most importantly the refrigerator says in the safe zone. Our October heat wave is over and we expect seasonal temperatures this weekend. My experiment has come to an end and I turned the refrigerator off. My wife says I’m way over thinking this but I had fun.

[Josephine517]

I think I got the picture in. Had to save off as a jpg. Wiring is a little messy but I was leaving plenty of slack to move thermostats around.

[CruizinDux]

Josephine517, thank you! This discussion has been very productive. Please give my thanks to your wife, i truly appreciate your time and feedback. FWIW, same response from my wife. Fun...of course. All challenge, this whole rig is one it seems. My wife said i'm just looking for work...well kinda. Trying to remember and keep in mind tcwheels (another 20owner) tag line...."don't let perfect be the enemy of better. "


Not looking for perfect, just trying to stop the food toss.

BTW i noticed your f2 is a foudale. Easy swap out for a quieter and more effecient fans. Mine is a silex & < $20. Very quiet.

Thanks again for your feedback.

Bob

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by Josephine517

. . .
One other trick to keep the refrigerator in the food safe zone. Never put warm items in it. Not even a room temperature bottle of water. It will kill the refrigerator and take hours to recover. Pre chill everything. . . .
. . .
And one more observation. Freezer gets the coolant first. Don’t try to make ice cubes or put unfrozen items in the freezer section during a hot day.
. . .

Great post [#42], especially the pointers above. Before leaving on a trip, we put a solid layer of already-frozen blue ice on the freezer floor. This thermal mass helps smooth things out IMO, and can be transferred down into the fridge if needed during hot weather.

There are good posts here about also carrying a super-cooler in the tow vehicle [like Pelican, Yeti etc.], and using dry ice there for back-up freezer space.

"dry ice" -- https://www.google.com/search?q=dry+...com&gws_rd=ssl

If you put frozen dinners/steaks/marinaded chicken etc. in that cooler with dry ice, the entire mass can last a week or more. One downside is that locating dry ice on the road can be challenging.

Cheers,

Peter

[CruizinDux]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

Great post [#42], especially the pointers above. Before leaving on a trip, we put a solid layer of already-frozen blue ice on the freezer floor. This thermal mass helps smooth things out IMO, and can be transferred down into the fridge if needed during hot weather.

There are good posts here about also carrying a super-cooler in the tow vehicle [like Pelican, Yeti etc.], and using dry ice there for back-up freezer space.

"dry ice" -- https://www.google.com/search?q=dry+...com&gws_rd=ssl

If you put frozen dinners/steaks/marinaded chicken etc. in that cooler with dry ice, the entire mass can last a week or more. One downside is that locating dry ice on the road can be challenging.

Cheers,

Peter

Hey Peter, thanks for the link. Pre cooling is easy to say/accomplish...i thought i was on vacation

But you gotta add food and beer!

This has been a great thread/discussion and one that i'll repost to once home ...my stratgey finalized and f2 and maybe f3 horizontal installed. New stats with diff set points TBD.... Will post here and link on 20 thread
B

ps...tomorrow turning the departing/turning the corner at Acadia with 4501 miles.. Freeport/LLB mothership and a couple of days again in Saco...nephew has an up and coming restaurant in Biddleford ( http://www.biscuitsandcompany.com ) then...maybe connecting with some Sea Ranch friends,maybe now in Stockbridge, ma then undermined connections to SB I81 to Nashville...patsy cline museum and Octoberfest at
https://www.bierhausnashville.com....tough duty

Zwei biers bitta schon...with an umlat : )

[OTRA15]

OT

Sounds good . . . really fine recent KOA campsite pic . . .

Nashville is great.
Slantia! -- https://www.bierhausnashville.com/musik#upcoming
https://www.patsymuseum.com/

Happy Trails . . .

Peter

[Rich W]

Originally Posted by CruizinDux

Just to add to the options...
This is a link to two posts made by rich that i had saved.
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f382...ml#post1856439

The idea being to swap the button stat mounted on the fins to one with a lower threshold. The fan comes on earlier so starts cooling at a loser threshold not giving the refer a chance to tun up. I'm not sure what the oem threshold is but i have heard 100 to 130.

http://senasys.com/product/snap-disc...irstream-mount

I'm thinking this ma be a good stratgey when i add fan #2
B

Hi Bob, it's been 3 years since I swapped that button switch/thermostat out and I've not had any problems. Senasys said 77 was too low and recommended (I think) 80 or 85. So the outside fan kicks in around 104 and cuts off around mid-80s.

We took a long trip out to the left coast in August (we got to meet over lunch ) and the fridge worked fine with temps into the 90s. The OEM button switch would never turn off, that was my problem. In addition, the fridge just wasn't cooling enough. Replacing the button switch with a quality switch solved the problem of the continuously running fan. Learning that the temperature control (the sliding stick on the right side of the interior cooling fins) was UP for cooler and not down. We keep ours set slightly above center (instead of at the bottom) and now the temperature stays at about 35 in the middle of the fridge compartment. I bring the AS home a day before we leave and plug in power so the fridge will cool down.

One other issue was that the fridge would sometimes stop cooling when on AC. I found that the heating element AC plug would wiggle loose in the exterior socket. I took it off, cleaned it up, adjusted the tension on the plug and put it back together. Now there's no problem. Beer, wine and food all stay cold and the freezer makes ice although it's faster to just buy ice and keep it in a cooler.

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by richw46

. . .
. . . Learning that the temperature control (the sliding stick on the right side of the interior cooling fins) was UP for cooler.
. . .

Mnemonic: "It is cooler up north."

"Thermistor" -- https://www.google.com/search?q=ther...com&gws_rd=ssl

[Rich W]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

Mnemonic: "It is cooler up north."

Oh, hey, THAT'S GREAT! Originally I was thinking that the temp should be down so I moved it down. That led to "not" down. UP north is perfect!

[Josephine517]

Originally Posted by richw46

Hi Bob, it's been 3 years since I swapped that button switch/thermostat out and I've not had any problems. Senasys said 77 was too low and recommended (I think) 80 or 85. So the outside fan kicks in around 104 and cuts off around mid-80s.

We took a long trip out to the left coast in August (we got to meet over lunch ) and the fridge worked fine with temps into the 90s. The OEM button switch would never turn off, that was my problem. In addition, the fridge just wasn't cooling enough. Replacing the button switch with a quality switch solved the problem of the continuously running fan. Learning that the temperature control (the sliding stick on the right side of the interior cooling fins) was UP for cooler and not down. We keep ours set slightly above center (instead of at the bottom) and now the temperature stays at about 35 in the middle of the fridge compartment. I bring the AS home a day before we leave and plug in power so the fridge will cool down.

One other issue was that the fridge would sometimes stop cooling when on AC. I found that the heating element AC plug would wiggle loose in the exterior socket. I took it off, cleaned it up, adjusted the tension on the plug and put it back together. Now there's no problem. Beer, wine and food all stay cold and the freezer makes ice although it's faster to just buy ice and keep it in a cooler.

Oh. That’s interesting. I’ll have to check mine.

[CruizinDux]

Originally Posted by richw46

Hi Bob, it's been 3 years since I swapped that button switch/thermostat out and I've not had any problems. Senasys said 77 was too low and recommended (I think) 80 or 85. So the outside fan kicks in around 104 and cuts off around mid-80s.

We took a long trip out to the left coast in August (we got to meet over lunch ) and the fridge worked fine with temps into the 90s. The OEM button switch would never turn off, that was my problem. In addition, the fridge just wasn't cooling enough. Replacing the button switch with a quality switch solved the problem of the continuously running fan. Learning that the temperature control (the sliding stick on the right side of the interior cooling fins) was UP for cooler and not down. We keep ours set slightly above center (instead of at the bottom) and now the temperature stays at about 35 in the middle of the fridge compartment. I bring the AS home a day before we leave and plug in power so the fridge will cool down.

One other issue was that the fridge would sometimes stop cooling when on AC. I found that the heating element AC plug would wiggle loose in the exterior socket. I took it off, cleaned it up, adjusted the tension on the plug and put it back together. Now there's no problem. Beer, wine and food all stay cold and the freezer makes ice although it's faster to just buy ice and keep it in a cooler.

Yup, we had a great lunch but not enough time and i forgot to ask you about your stat swap as it was warm in the willamette valley. I had checked the plug at the dupe...very tight area, almost didn't get the plug back in.

I'm now thinking when i get back i'll order/install the 80-85/104?? as phase 1. I'm seriously considering another Silex, both controlled by the same/new stat, but the second one with an on/off toggle on the fan for a bit more control on draw. I have a smaller 4" fan that i may eventually mount horizontally like Josephine517's...what/which/ where for the stat to control...i'll decide once I'm there. Thinking i won't need the third fan.I

B