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Old 03-16-2018, 09:28 PM   #1
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Know Before You Go

This is a cautionary post. We have a new 2018 Classic 30’ w solar. We’d been on the road for over a month and were in the SW scouting as future snowbirds. Tho on shore power at a desert campsite, we began seeing a daily drop in available battery voltage. We chalked a little of that up to being parked in the shade for half days but began being concerned when it kept dropping each day. The converter did not seem to be doing its job. The last day there we woke up in the middle of night to find all of the lights dead.

THE CAUTIONARY PART: these new coaches have so much low power technology that you can’t run many of your accessories if your battery goes dead - no stabilizer jacks, no electric awning, refrigerator, Firefly, Alde, hitch jack and who knows what else. Mercifully we’d got most everything ready for towing a day before.

It all had a good ending thanks to Joe & Allan at Las Vegas Airstream. They took us in on short notice, found it was a likely combination of two things. 1) a loose connection on a battery terminal, thus probably sending intermittent current to a breaker in the converter box, causing it to cut out.

BTW, tho we’ve had an older Classic and got to know it quite well, the new Classic is far more sophisticated and not all controls/breakers/switches are easy to find. The Airstream tech also found the converter & inverter were not fastened to the floor - that too could have played a role.
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Old 03-16-2018, 10:27 PM   #2
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"the converter & inverter were not fastened to the floor - that too could have played a role."

Ya think??? Sheesh. Just when I think Airstream quality control can't get any worse...
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Old 03-17-2018, 08:06 AM   #3
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Your converter is in a cabinet, with the 120v breakers. How can it not be mounted?
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Old 03-17-2018, 08:58 AM   #4
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Unfortunately, things sometimes get missed at the Factory. We're glad you were able to get it straightened out.

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Old 03-17-2018, 09:59 AM   #5
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From my personal experience, there is an inverse relationship between speed of production and quality control at Airstream.

When production was at 26 units per week when our 2013 25FB International Serenity was built in July of 2012, there were NO QC issues.

When our 2014 31' Classic was built in January, 2014 there were lots of QC issues. I was there every day and pointed some of these out to the QC supervisor in person and in writing and they were not addressed at the factory. Production was at 41 units per week.

Later that fall in September, our 2015 23D International Serenity was built and the production rate was now just over 50 units per week. We had many very obvious QC issues and even the selling dealership ignored the very visible issues during the so called pre-delivery inspection. I believe they had to do that inspection over coffee in the employee lounge to miss these visible issues.
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Old 03-17-2018, 10:00 AM   #6
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I expect better than average from AS, that's the reason we bought one. This is all they do, and have built AS for ever.
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Old 03-17-2018, 10:09 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by happy2retire View Post
I expect better than average from AS, that's the reason we bought one. This is all they do, and have built AS for ever.

I believe the problem is with the supervisory staff.
These trailers are hand built and the teams are being pushed for production numbers. In this type of atmosphere it is up to the inspectors to make sure that everything is 100 percent before it gets covered up.
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Old 03-17-2018, 10:17 AM   #8
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I expect better than average from AS, that's the reason we bought one. This is all they do, and have built AS for ever.
Unfortunately, they are owned by a larger company who wants greater profit. They really don't care if they're making Airstreams or bowling balls. I'm sure they're aware of the flaws, but they count on the dealer to take up the slack. The assembly line must go faster and faster, with fewer and fewer skilled people. The dealer wants more profit too, so he doesn't want to fix stuff for less than he charges.
I selected my unit off the dealer's lot. That way I got to see any flaws in person, and knew it sat through a few rainstorms.
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Old 03-17-2018, 10:20 AM   #9
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As somebody who has made many changes on our Airstream, I can attest to the fact that sometimes things can just get forgotten or missed. Good that Las Vegas Airstream found the problem.

The converter in our 2002 19' Bambi (purchased new) is under the dinette seat and was not fastened to anything. That caused no problems, but soon got rectified. My point? It is nothing new and not a sign (at least not for me) that increased production is the source of all problems.

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Old 03-17-2018, 10:40 AM   #10
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Quality control issues have dogged Airstream for decades. Our Airstream was built in 2007 when production was high and we had about 60 items needing repair. The dealer was so bad (they, among other things, backed another trailer into ours piecing the rear panel and had to replace the panel) we took it to the factory twice despite the 1,400 mile trip each way. The service center did a fine job, but the dealer only gave us headaches. Periodically on this Forum there have been numerous complaints about quality control—it is either poor workmanship or cheap materials.

The same statements I saw above have been repeated many times. One is that this is sold as a premium product but has the QC of a low quality one. The president of Airstream was brought in years ago as a cost cutter and he did so. At times things like using OSB as a subfloor (it swells when it gets wet) or weakening the frame causing sag at either end have cost the company lots of money to repair. Corrosion issues have persisted, especially in states with winter salt issues on the roads, or near the cost. Many items bought from suppliers have been the cheapest ones available.

Thor Industries, the owner of Airstresam, manufactures mediocre to low quality product lines. Airstreams may be a little better and the basic design is very good, but it is not a high quality product. The basic design was created generations ago by Wally Byam and when Airstream has not tinkered with it, it remains a good design. One very positive benefit of Airstream is they really do tow better (and faster) because of their curved corners and they are low to the ground.

The general public has not figured this out and when we sold our Airstream we got a very good price for it. We bought a new trailer for far less money that in some regards has better quality and in some, about the same. The frame is not as good, but the insulation is far, far better, meaning neither the furnace or A/C have to run as much. It also has a lot more space in about the same length because of a design without the space-wasting hallway between the main cabin and the bedroom. The width is 6" less, but a simple slide opens up the cabin. Even though it was less expensive trim line the manufacturer offered, it had a power awning and ducted A/C too. The machinery was all much quieter than the Airstream. I doubt it will last decades, but neither will we.

Though it had some warranty issues, the first year had maybe 15-20% the issues our Airstream had. The dealer was not great, but a lot better than the Airstream dealer we had taken our Airstream to. They were slow and not always on top of things, but they didn't do any damage and they did not refuse to fix warranty items as the Airstream dealer had.

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Old 03-17-2018, 10:57 AM   #11
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Well said, M. O. U. !

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Old 03-17-2018, 11:47 AM   #12
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Pay Your Money, Make Your Choice

I've had three Airstreams over the years, but would never buy another. The cost for new models has really gotten out of hand and the build quality is just not as good as the older models...

Airstream trades on its old reputation as a quality manufacturer. Since Thor bought them years ago, it's been mostly all down hill at higher prices in my opinion. But, it's a free country... any consumer can pay their hard earned money and make their choice... but Airstream would not be mine if I were buying new...
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Old 03-18-2018, 10:34 AM   #13
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Our experience with the 2014 Classic and the 2015 23D was by spending more than 50% of the purchase price on the modifications and repairs, we were able to get them fixed properly using proper parts and not the repeat failure prone sub-prime RV parts used by Airstream to fix the defective part that just failed.

I was inside one afternoon during the build of the Classic and there were three trades tripping over one another just in the kitchen space. There was a time study guy outside with a stop watch. The kitchen cabinet came in the door and was installed on top of crossed duct work at the discharge of the furnace, which became no hot air to the back of the trailer.

I wonder if they ever checked for any hot air flow at the back of the trailer at the factory or the dealer doing the supposed pre-delivery check list?
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Old 03-18-2018, 12:05 PM   #14
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Over the years, we had to replace many things and like Switz found that the parts we were replacing were inferior, so we spent the extra money and put in better quality. But sometimes it was not Airstream's fault—a lot of RV parts are crap, possibly because many RV's don't last very long and also because no one is regulating the industry so they can get away with anything. Imagine what cars would belike if there were no regulations—I remember replacing brakes at 20,000 miles, awful gas mileage, bad drum brakes, sloppy steering, etc.—sort of like contemporary RV's.

A case in point are the latches for the drawers. They last from a few years to a few more years. They are expensive for what you get and we used to carry several extras because RV's inevitably break on the road. To replace some latches (they are at the back of the drawer) requires pain and suffering to get the old ones out and new ones in. Perhaps an RV should come with a small and very strong child with tool skills. I quickly found that an extensive tool kit was necessary with an RV as we did not want to spend trips looking for RV shops who may or may not be competent and almost always charged the limit.

Anytime a thread is about poor QC and materials, a few fans tell how great Airstreams are and how bad other brands are. I don't know whether they drank Kool Aid or have been lucky with their Airstreams. Even the worst car manufacturers turn out some good ones and the best will make some clunkers (try a Yaris). Maybe if you have had bad cars and trucks, RV's look good. We have looked for well made SUV's and trucks for a generation and have had very few repairs necessary. Some vehicles have gone for well over 100,000 miles with only several hundred dollars in maintenance and repairs—much of it for oil, oil filters and grease. We buy high quality tires because they are safer and because they last much longer, they actually save money. As a result we have little tolerance for lousy ST tires and poorly made vehicles. I note that many RV dealers have poor or mediocre reputations as well, so I am glad I knew how to fix stuff. I feel for the people who have no tool skills and don't understand their RV, leaving them at the mercy of shops.

So far with our new RV (it sat on a lot for 18 months, so it was new when we bought it last August) the dealer has been mediocre in warranty work, but we have had far fewer issues than we had with our Airstream in the first 4,000 miles. It cost less than half our Airstream, is not sexy, is harder to tow, but workmanship is better and some materials are a lot better as well. Selling the Airstream meant we bought a new trailer and hitch and a satellite receiver and had $10K left over. Not bad.

For that, I can drive slower and look like a dork.

Gene
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Old 03-18-2018, 02:51 PM   #15
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I can't disagree with the experiences discussed by SWITZ and Gene as I have had similar problem experiences with both of my Airstreams. However, that being said the Airstreams were light years ahead of my 96 22' Prowler, in terms of both quality and performance.

There were some design tweak improvements in the 2017 30' FC from my 2007 25' FB Safari. In the FC, AS installed extruded rafter rails in the cabinets and "bolted" them to the frame as opposed to the "riveted" installation in the Safari. The rivets sheared near the front of the cabinets and I was concerned about the whole cabinet winding up on the floor before I sold it. Another improvement was the ducted AC. Not only did it cool better than the Safari with less noise, the condensate from the drip pan hasn't over flowed and wound up in the middle of the floor. Also the GW and BW drain valves are now located more "out-board" and won't cost $400 in labor to replace a $3.95 valve.

IMO the majority of the weak points with the AS has been and continues to be with the supplier equipment i.e. Third party.

AS Dealers also seem to be another a weak area. I have yet to find one in S. Cal that acts in a responsible manner. The fix seems to be OK but it's the follow-up communication between the service dept. and the owner that is miserable. AS dealers need to take a page from auto dealers these days. They seem to have improved to the point they are at least tolerable.

As to the QC issue: if in-fact AS is paying attention to production speed only, it's a huge mistake, because what you gain in production labor savings you loose on warranty returns. Need both speed and quality. Most modern assembly lines use a combination of robots and "highly skilled" labor and have a rigid QC at specific assembly stages.
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Old 03-18-2018, 07:03 PM   #16
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As to the QC issue: if in-fact AS is paying attention to production speed only, it's a huge mistake, because what you gain in production labor savings you loose on warranty returns. Need both speed and quality. Most modern assembly lines use a combination of robots and "highly skilled" labor and have a rigid QC at specific assembly stages.
The "huge mistake" you describe apparently hasn't been noticed by management after years of complaint. Instead they appear to hunker down and refuse to acknowledge their mistakes. We haven't been to the factory for at least 8 years, but robots were nonexistent and methods seemed to be pretty old fashioned. I see they are expanding again, but don't know whether a modern factory will or has been built. Even computer guided cutting of panels for windows was not seen years ago. Labor was pretty cheap in that part of Ohio and Airstream is very, very anti-union, so wage pressure was low. But when we were at the Northwoods factory last year, pretty much the same was true. I do think they were more automated than Airstream was 8 years ago. The floors at Airstream were a lot cleaner than at Northwoods where OSHA might have a fun time.

One difference between auto and truck manufacturers and the RV industry is scale. There are scores of RV companies and some of them have scores of product lines. For example, Forest River has something like 60 brands. And dealers drop their products because Forest River doesn't pay them for a long time on warranty work. Berkshire Hathaway owns FR. Auto and truck companies are enormous by comparison and have become automated besides being required to do many things by regulations. Those are the regulations people complain about, but without them cars and trucks would be an unsafe as they once were. I suspect if I were to drive my first car (a '56 Mercury), I'd be scared to death. They are also union shops in many places, so workers get paid a lot better and more money attracts better workers.

Also, reviews of are hard to find. Magazines like Consumer Reports do not review RV's, for ex. If reviews were easy to find for the general public they would expose shoddy work and materials. Airstream is iconic and that the public hasn't discovered the problems is not unusual, therefore. Ten years ago there was a lot of discussion on the Forum about problems on many threads; the president of Airstream even responded although it took a lot of time (that thread disappeared a long time ago). A lot was about corrosion and that thread may still be active. That was also during the Great Recession and production dropped about 1/3 of what it had been. The company was worried, but after a few years, sales went up and they sold everything they made. It is a small company and did not have much in the way of engineers, research, training or money to automate. The president told me they did have an active QC program, but when I asked mechanics in the shop how come problems they saw all the time never seemed to be heard at the factory, they just smiled, but really couldn't talk.

We got 10 years and 62,000 miles out of ours. We enjoyed a lot of that and the basic structure was good. The first two years were stressful with constant problems; that always influenced us. I improved a lot (new flooring, new dinette table, cabinet for zapper and printer, better tires and wheels, good solar instead of the crappy system the dealer installed, better cushions in main cabin.... and the list goes on) and maintained the rest. It took us from Key West to the Brooks Range in Alaska. I got tired of fixing it and feared the fridge was wearing out; other appliances were aging as well. So it was time to go and we are happy with a better floor plan and more room.

If I were to buy another one, I'd look for a gently used one and save a lot because the prices are crazy. They seem to increase them several thousands a year with little improvement. Ours sold fast—the first time in 5 days, but they had second thoughts a few days later, so it took a few more weeks to really sell it. We got 71% of what we paid for it, so if any vehicle is an investment, I suppose Airstream and Ferraris may be it. Certainly no one asks to see the inside of our Nash or comments "Do they still make them?"

Gene
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Old 03-18-2018, 07:48 PM   #17
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I have a different perspective due to experience.

I just sold a 2016 Coachmen Prism 2160. I was disgusted with the material and quality of the build. Especially considering the price!

I knew we wanted better but had no idea where to look. While out camping (with the Prism) we decided to go look at Airstreams at the local dealer.

It was night and day the quality of material difference! We KNEW we were buying an AS.

We ended up getting a never used 2016 28' Int. Signature and could not be happier (so far). I realize there will be "issues" but, I also think I can deal with most.

What I do NOT have to deal with is staring at a unit built with the cheapest of everything glued together pretending to be a quality RV.

AS is well beyond other trailers with respect to materials and quality. YES, they have QC issues (who doesn't?). However, they still are a great product.

My 2cents
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Old 03-18-2018, 08:03 PM   #18
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Wow.... I remember being told “we have the best field technicians in the o world, ship it and fix it in the field. “

That was for a really good company at one time. I fear Airstream is doomed with that attitude...

On the other hand, good “field techs” may have a booming career...
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Old 03-19-2018, 05:36 AM   #19
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My opinion hasn’t changed from one year ago when we purchased a new 2016 on the last day of the sales year. You buy an Airstream because it tows great, common sense says the shell and frame will last a long time and the depreciation rate is lower than most others. If I were to do it again, I’d just go with a Bigfoot 4-season and drive slower. That doesn’t mean I don’t love my FC25FB, only that objectively it was an emotional decision not a rational one.

All that said, we carry a decent toolkit capable of fixing most problems ourself. The dealer across the country had to fix the black drain elbow that left the factory uncrimped and sprayed the shower bottom instead. When I describe the AS to people I gently comment that if you aren’t tool handy you should think twice and maybe three times unless you plan to remain on paved roads and within easy reach of service.

Also, bite the bullet and replace the tires that came with the trailer, the battery charger, the shower head and carry spare caulking and painters tape. Enjoy the ride.
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Old 03-19-2018, 07:17 AM   #20
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Airstream Positivity

I have a bit of a different perspective on all of this Airstream negativity. Over the past twelve years, I have had three different Airstreams, two 25FBs and one 23FB. Two of three, I purchased new, and the 23FB was previously owned. SuEllyn and I have enjoyed all three immensely. We are approaching 1,900 nights of Airstream camping, and have towed our Airstreams almost 180,000 miles all over the United States and Canada.

In our somewhat extensive Airstream experience, we have experienced many situations that required repair while traveling. Most were minor. a few were significant. What I found out early on was that many Airstream dealers are at least substandard if not incompetent when it comes to repair and service issues. The Airstream Factory Service Center has very knowledgeable technicians and is competent to perform any repair or modification.

My experience has taught me several things. The first thing that I do is replace the OEM ST trailer tires with 16" Michelins LTs. I have never had an issue of any kind with these tires. I do almost all repairs and adjustments myself. I am no master mechanic, but I am continuously amazed at how much I can do as a "Certified YouTube Mechanic".

I have come to the conclusion that if you want to be a happy RV traveler, you must do at least the majority of the maintenance and at least the minor repairs yourself. In most cases, you are as competent as a dealer's RV technician. Plus, you actually give a hoot about the job quality.

As far as Airstream vs. the others, if there is a better RV out there, I have not found it yet. Each time that we replaced our trailers, we did extensive research. Each time, we came back to Airstream.

This Airstream travel has been the most rewarding experiences of our lifetime. We would not trade it for anything. We can't wait for our next Airstream Adventure. Our dear Lucy is waiting in the alley for us.

Brian
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