Not Enough Battery in a 2022 International?

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Like it or not, the stock voltage monitors do *not* go direct to the batteries. They look at a voltage somewhere in the system. With loading, there is a voltage drop between the battery and the point they look at.

Lead acids have significant (compared to lithium) internal resistance. Even fairly light loads impacts the voltage. There are also chemical reasons the voltage moves a bit even with light loads. The *only* time the magic numbers apply is when there is no load and there has been no load for at least an hour. Any other time, the voltages are likely to be off.

Yes, this all is what drives most of us to getting a Smart Shunt ..... It's also one reason why Airstream has started putting them in as stock on some models.

Bob

[OrangeCrush]

Originally Posted by TitusNW

Hmm... Ok, then I guess the disconnect Airstream is using is a really bad idea. My short experience with that disconnect is 12.2v is closely followed by the 5 minute blinking LED warning and all lights out when it trips.


Thanks to OrangeCrush I've downloaded the Intellitec Battery Guard 1000 instructions and I'll set it to Coach mode and see how it goes.


Steve

Yes - I bet yours is in Chassis mode too. Voltage drop under load is normal due to internal resistance of the battery. This resistance goes up as the temperature goes down. Large load (furnace) at cold temps results in a significant voltage drop. If your Battery Guard is set to Chassis mode (12.1V) it will be real easy to trip with the furnace running.

p.s. - If you guys (TitusNW and DebTaylor) confirm your Battery Guard was indeed in Chassis mode it would be nice to put out a warning thread as I bet there are a lot of frustrated 2022 owners that would like to know.

[thewarden]

Originally Posted by Rob Edgerton

Regarding max battery size in the front battery box, it is possible to fit 2 group 27 size batteries if you have a 4.5” angle grinder and are comfortable trimming about 1/4” from the coach side of the box. Leave the short section for the latch, and trim the plastic battery spacer in the bottom to fit the longer group 27 and you are good to go.

This is my battery box with 2, 100ah BB lithium batteries. No mods to the battery box were needed.

[OrangeCrush]

Originally Posted by thewarden

This is my battery box with 2, 100ah BB lithium batteries. No mods to the battery box were needed.

Those are not standard group 27 batteries. They are the Battleborn GC2H which are specifically designed to drop into the Airstream box. I am getting ready to drop a pair in myself. I notice you don't have the heaters hooked up. Do you not plan to use them? They only come on below 35degF but leaving them on when not charging wastes a few amps depending on temp. They include a switch harness. I am contemplating creating a circuit that detects when the solar charger wakes up in the morning and then automatically switches the heater enable on. I do think if you want to do a simple but minimal Lithium upgrade a pair of BB GC2Hs is a good option.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by OrangeCrush

Those are not standard group 27 batteries. They are the Battleborn GC2H which are specifically designed to drop into the Airstream box. I am getting ready to drop a pair in myself. I notice you don't have the heaters hooked up. Do you not plan to use them? They only come on below 35degF but leaving them on when not charging wastes a few amps depending on temp. They include a switch harness. I am contemplating creating a circuit that detects when the solar charger wakes up in the morning and then automatically switches the heater enable on. I do think if you want to do a simple but minimal Lithium upgrade a pair of BB GC2Hs is a good option.

Hi

The "standard" Battleborn 100AH batteries dropped into the battery box on my 2017 just fine with no mods to the box or to the batteries.

Bob

[goldenchase]

The battery box found on Airstream trailers was clearly designed to house the old style off gassing lead acid batteries, not lithium batteries. I can't think of a worst place to put these high tech lithium batteries than a battery box outside, full of holes, running about 9" above pavement subject intense splashing and salt spray off the roads. These batteries include some very sensitive electronics. Then there are the cold charging issues of the batteries.

If you are going to spend the money for the best batteries, spend a little more on additional wiring and mount them inside the trailer. It will also lighten your hitch loads.

[propchef]

Originally Posted by goldenchase

The battery box found on Airstream trailers was clearly designed to house the old style off gassing lead acid batteries, not lithium batteries. I can't think of a worst place to put these high tech lithium batteries than a battery box outside, full of holes, running about 9" above pavement subject intense splashing and salt spray off the roads. These batteries include some very sensitive electronics. Then there are the cold charging issues of the batteries.

If you are going to spend the money for the best batteries, spend a little more on additional wiring and mount them inside the trailer. It will also lighten your hitch loads.

Lance did this for their 2022 models. Battery storage is now inside under the bed.

[thewarden]

Originally Posted by OrangeCrush

Those are not standard group 27 batteries. They are the Battleborn GC2H which are specifically designed to drop into the Airstream box. I am getting ready to drop a pair in myself. I notice you don't have the heaters hooked up. Do you not plan to use them? They only come on below 35degF but leaving them on when not charging wastes a few amps depending on temp. They include a switch harness. I am contemplating creating a circuit that detects when the solar charger wakes up in the morning and then automatically switches the heater enable on. I do think if you want to do a simple but minimal Lithium upgrade a pair of BB GC2Hs is a good option.

I am not planning on using the trailer for the next 6 months, so I did not bother to hook up the heaters. If I am in a situation where the temps drop when I am out, I will hook them up then. I wanted the option, just in case.

[TitusNW]

Responding to post #42, yes, the Battery Guard disconnect as deliverd was in Chassis mode. Did the reset as shown in the manual and near the end of the 30 second period the LED blinked 5 times confirming the change to Coach mode.

Yesterday afternoon I left the trailer with the refrigerator off (it's 38F outside). This morning SeeLeveL reported 12.3v, hydrometer reports batteries at 75% charge. Yesterday I had run the furnace and refrigerator 4 hours on battery only. This morning the SeeLeveL reports 11.9v with the furnace pulling it's load, reports 12.0v when cycle is off. No blinking LED. I do understand the charge level of the batteries is now on me.


The pic below shows the location of the Battery Guard in our trailer, piggy backed on the WFCO converter. I did the reset/reprogram at the unit so I could see the LED confirm the change. Placed some pipe insulation on the hot water pex before I closed up.


Steve

[dan20]

I have a 2021 Bambi 19 ft with 2 - 90 watt solars on the roof and a 90 watt solar "suitcase" All Zamp..
I spoke to AS customer service re the all electric refrigerator and he stated that AS did some testing and found that the new all electric refer used less electricity that the older propane/electric refer. Hard to believe??

I boondock and have 2 deep cycle 6 volt batteries per the the advice of my local Interstate dealer. This system works overnight with outside temps in the high 20s.
Food for thought.. I drop the thermostat to 60 deg for overnight use. My furnace would be smaller than the bigger trailers in question...

Dan

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by dan20

I have a 2021 Bambi 19 ft with 2 - 90 watt solars on the roof and a 90 watt solar "suitcase" All Zamp..
I spoke to AS customer service re the all electric refrigerator and he stated that AS did some testing and found that the new all electric refer used less electricity that the older propane/electric refer. Hard to believe??

I boondock and have 2 deep cycle 6 volt batteries per the the advice of my local Interstate dealer. This system works overnight with outside temps in the high 20s.
Food for thought.. I drop the thermostat to 60 deg for overnight use. My furnace would be smaller than the bigger trailers in question...

Dan

Oh - I'd love to see their test numbers on this one. Were they running the propane fridge with the anti-condensation strips turned on? Something seems out of line with that answer.

[OrangeCrush]

Originally Posted by TitusNW

Responding to post #42, yes, the Battery Guard disconnect as deliverd was in Chassis mode. Did the reset as shown in the manual and near the end of the 30 second period the LED blinked 5 times confirming the change to Coach mode.

Yesterday afternoon I left the trailer with the refrigerator off (it's 38F outside). This morning SeeLeveL reported 12.3v, hydrometer reports batteries at 75% charge. Yesterday I had run the furnace and refrigerator 4 hours on battery only. This morning the SeeLeveL reports 11.9v with the furnace pulling it's load, reports 12.0v when cycle is off. No blinking LED. I do understand the charge level of the batteries is now on me.


The pic below shows the location of the Battery Guard in our trailer, piggy backed on the WFCO converter. I did the reset/reprogram at the unit so I could see the LED confirm the change. Placed some pipe insulation on the hot water pex before I closed up.


Steve

TitusNW - Great to hear. At least now you can manage the batteries as you see fit without nuisance faults. Thanks for letting us know. Airstream should put out a service bulletin on this as I bet there is a lot of unhappy 2022 campers out there.

[Dick tracy]

2021 27fbt international, 2 - BB 100ah, 230w ZAMP solar suitcase, N Idaho in September, nights in the low-mid 30's, days in the mid 60's, five hours of direct sunlight each day, furnace set at 60 degrees, refer on propane, no power issues, eight nights, batteries charged up each day, could have gone on indefinitely like that. 4-7 days will probably be our max boondocking duration, no winters.

Very pleased, think I'm good to go

[OrangeCrush]

Originally Posted by Dick tracy

2021 27fbt international, 2 - BB 100ah, 230w ZAMP solar suitcase, N Idaho in September, nights in the low-mid 30's, days in the mid 60's, five hours of direct sunlight each day, furnace set at 60 degrees, refer on propane, no power issues, eight nights, batteries charged up each day, could have gone on indefinitely like that. 4-7 days will probably be our max boondocking duration, no winters.

Very pleased, think I'm good to go

Glad to hear about your success. Did you install the BB inside or out. I am getting ready to put in a pair and thinking about placing them outside out for simplicity.

[TitusNW]

I'm encouraged. To recap, trailer sat overnight, nothing on. This morning it reported 12.2v. I started the furnace & refrigerator for 3 hours, then left with just the refrigerator running, came back after 4 hours and batteries still at 12.2v.


Hydrometer shows 75% on most cells, 50% on some (lousy rainy day, not doing them all). Plugged back into shore power and the WF-8955 came alive. Showed 20.4 amps of charge - highest I've ever seen.


Guessing the low charging amps I've seen in the past are attributed to the battery disconnect cutting power before the batteries were really discharged. Without a significant discharge there was no reason for the converter to do any heavy lifting.

Here's to Coach Mode!

Steve

[OrangeCrush]

[pteck]

Need solar. Lithium is ultimately a bandaid. No matter the battery, if there's a power input deficit, you'll run into reserve issues.

Modern day solution is solar. 300W to 400W will make the trailer practically a perpetual power machine. Add a portable briefcase solar for when there's shade or to help with an extra boost.

At that point, it won't really matter what type of battery chemistry you have. Because there will always be a power surplus. Batteries really are only necessary through the night or cloudy stretches as most of the power can be used from solar almost in real time.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by pteck

Need solar. Lithium is ultimately a bandaid. No matter the battery, if there's a power input deficit, you'll run into reserve issues.

Modern day solution is solar. 300W to 400W will make the trailer practically a perpetual power machine. Add a portable briefcase solar for when there's shade or to help with an extra boost.

At that point, it won't really matter what type of battery chemistry you have. Because there will always be a power surplus. Batteries really are only necessary through the night or cloudy stretches as most of the power can be used from solar almost in real time.

The only exception would be winter months, especially in northern parts of the US or in Canada. There are some who enjoy winter camping with their Airstream.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by goldenchase

The battery box found on Airstream trailers was clearly designed to house the old style off gassing lead acid batteries, not lithium batteries. I can't think of a worst place to put these high tech lithium batteries than a battery box outside, full of holes, running about 9" above pavement subject intense splashing and salt spray off the roads. These batteries include some very sensitive electronics. Then there are the cold charging issues of the batteries.

If you are going to spend the money for the best batteries, spend a little more on additional wiring and mount them inside the trailer. It will also lighten your hitch loads.

Hi

Take a look at the typical class B van, putting lithiums in the trailer battery box looks like a wonderful location.

If you are worried about your batteries out side, maybe you should get better batteries. There is no problem with the Battleborn's outdoors.

Bob

[panamerican]

Originally Posted by dan20

I spoke to AS customer service re the all electric refrigerator and he stated that AS did some testing and found that the new all electric refer used less electricity that the older propane/electric refer. Hard to believe??

Dan

Yes, very hard to believe, and almost comical, at least when comparing LP mode to the 12v fridge compressor draw.

But then again what do we all expect them to say? "We dropped the ball"

Mathematically it is impossible. Propane mode uses maybe .75 to 1 amp. 12v RV compressor fridges use about 4 amps +/-. From there the math seems pretty clear that either the rep has no clue, is reading the company line and/or is basing that comment on an LP absorption fridge running on shore power, in which case they would be correct, but comparing an LP absorption fridge in LP mode vs a 12v compressor.....survey said....