16 Inch Rims and Tires

[jcanavera]

The use of Michelin tires came about because of the issues that Goodyear had with the Marathon trailer tires. This wasn't just an Airstream issue however, and countless of other brands of trailer forums carry plenty of threads of Marathon failures.

Airstream watched this site and saw those of us who made the change to the MS/2 LT Michelins address the belt slippage, separation, and blow out issues. Airstream picked up that this community was unhappy with the Marathons and that the user community had good results with the Michelin alternative. It was only after we proved the viability of the tire upgrade that Airstream gave the buyers of new units a choice.

I think the continuation of the Airstream Michelin relationship is more of a public perception of premium tires on the Classics rather than a reliability issue. The fact that Airstream is still equipping Michelin tires if requested on new builds is an acknowledgment that the tires are safe to use with their trailers and quite honestly a safe choice.

I'm more of the opinion of "what ever floats your boat" between the two brands of tires, rather than looking at differences that are so small that will never be noticed by the typical owner. Personally I noticed no changes in the handling or hitching requirements of my 2004 Classic Slide Out when I moved to 16 inch wheels and Michelin MS/2 LT and its successor at the time, the Defender LT in the 225 75R 16 sizes. What I do notice is that I am getting 6 seasons of life from them, as noted by others, they hold their pressure between uses, and I've had zero failures.

The Endurance is a better tire than the Marathon ever was and most likely for Airstream, is now a tire that is reliable, has a lower cost. I would not throw a Michelin out of contention because of it being an LT tire vs the ST Endurance. The Michelin truck tires have more than proved their chops for towing. I really believe that the differences are minor and won't be noticeable by an owner.

Our two experts on this forum who have tons of experience in the tire industry have never given any of us any conception or fear that the Michelin tires that most of us have used are not up to standards of safety when being use on our trailers.

The only thing we have been informed was to watch the branding of some Michelin tires which have an LT moniker in their name, but truly are passenger vehicle tires.

Jack

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by 2012FB

I never let it get to that. I replaced the Good Year trailer tires as soon as I took delivery on the last 3 new Airstreams. 100,000+ miles from one end of the country to the other under all kinds of conditions. No TPMS, no checking them every time I stop, no worrying about changing a roadside tire on the side of a busy interstate. No worries about significant trailer damage due to a blowout. Care-free travels. Priceless!

Wow! Did you replace them with solid rubber tires or maybe tank tracks?

Originally Posted by 2012FB

This is such a fun continued/repeat thread. A trailer tire is nowhere near the construction quality of a Michelin LT or RIB, period. Will it work? Sure. Is it the best tire to protect your Airstream investment? No, not even close.

Would love a link providing definitive evidence or data showing the GYE tire uses inferior design, construction or materials to the several Micheline often used for trailering. Since it is definitive ("period", and "not even close") you should have no trouble. I do note LT tires require higher testing standards but that only proves the GYE passed easier tests, it says little about quality or on road durability differences if any.

[BayouBiker]

Even the Goodyear Marathon gets a bad wrap for being a poor tire but it's fault was that it failed to keep up with consumer desire to have trailers equipped with more conveniences and carry more stuff and to travel at higher speeds. The Marathon was speed rated to 65 mph and its load range was also low.

Most failures were due to the driver asking the tire to do what it was not designed to do. They were frequently under inflated, overloaded, and pulled at speeds that were too high.

[kscherzi]

Airstream used to equip their trailer with the 15" Goodyear Marathons as standard equipment. I forget the recommended tire pressure but am pretty sure it was the max pressure as printed on the trailer sidewall. Those tires were loaded to nearly their max capacity to just meet trailer GVWR. These tires came with my trailer, and I usually tow between 60 and 62 mph, so take exception to the assertion that their failures were the drivers fault. Two of the Marathons that came with my trailer failed, one a delamination, the other just couldn't hold air for more than a couple weeks no matter what the tire shop tried. My friend's similar trailer has three failures with some damage to his trailer.

At the time (mid 2014/15 timeframe), this was a hot issue. The reported solution to the Marathons explosive failures was to replace them with 15" or 16" Michelin's. It was an expensive change but eliminated the worry of having $10k trailer damage due to a tire blowout. Today the Goodyear Endurance, a different tire, seems to have a good track record so the conversion to Michelin tires no longer has the necessity as before.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Both my tire failures were with GY trailer tires. (1987>>sfsg.)
One as the result of a severe case of CRI where I just plain hit the curb pulling into HD and the other the torsion axle wore out causing inside edge tire wear.
I blame it all on common sense.
If in doubt, I inflate to the high side.

Bob
🇺🇸

[jcanavera]

I had 2 sets of ST branded products. The original Marathons and then a set of Maxxis E rated ST tires. All of them failed prematurely with belt issues. The trailer was stored in a garage and the Marathons were run at 60 mph with cold pressure set to 65 psi. The Maxxis tires were set at their allowable 80 psi. Inside storage and run at 60 mph. Marathons failed at the end of season 2 and the Maxxis tires failed at the beginning of season 3. Trailer weight was between 8,600 to 9,000 lbs.

I just don't believe the ST's could safely handle that much weight over a 2-3 year period. Plain economics made the LT tires a better value for me. The proof is my first set of LT's did 6 seasons and the current set are beginning season 4. Same speed, same storage conditions, and I keep them at 80 psi.

Personally I'd be afraid to go back to an ST tire especially with the experience of the Maxxis where I suffered 2 slipped belts on the front axle on the same trip. The Maxxis didn't fail on the road. I noticed that both had ballooned when I backed into the drive at home. At the start of that drive I checked the tires prior to departure. The Marathon peeled a piece of tread off and the belt broke as I was pivoting on my back in to my driveway.

Jack

[JetstreamAS]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

As previously mentioned a large sample of road experience reports of satisfaction and reliability of the switched up combination would provide this data. Unfortunately this precise data is elusive.

Disagree, as this data is not elusive. Plenty of members on Airforums have reported success regarding the "satisfaction and reliability of the switched up combination," yet none of the previously-alleged "dozens" of failures of Michelins in this application on Airforums have yet to be shown. Not one.

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

However logic failures including the category errors in the quote above certainly does not inform us of which combination may be most reliable.

Skipping past the unfortunate and jumbled string of words, it is pretty evident that reported failures on Airforums (or lack thereof) show exactly "which combination may be the most reliable."

Originally Posted by jcanavera

I had 2 sets of ST branded products. The original Marathons and then a set of Maxxis E rated ST tires. All of them failed prematurely with belt issues. The trailer was stored in a garage and the Marathons were run at 60 mph with cold pressure set to 65 psi. The Maxxis tires were set at their allowable 80 psi. Inside storage and run at 60 mph. Marathons failed at the end of season 2 and the Maxxis tires failed at the beginning of season 3. Trailer weight was between 8,600 to 9,000 lbs.

I just don't believe the ST's could safely handle that much weight over a 2-3 year period. Plain economics made the LT tires a better value for me. The proof is my first set of LT's did 6 seasons and the current set are beginning season 4. Same speed, same storage conditions, and I keep them at 80 psi.

Personally I'd be afraid to go back to an ST tire especially with the experience of the Maxxis where I suffered 2 slipped belts on the front axle on the same trip. The Maxxis didn't fail on the road. I noticed that both had ballooned when I backed into the drive at home. At the start of that drive I checked the tires prior to departure. The Marathon peeled a piece of tread off and the belt broke as I was pivoting on my back in to my driveway.

Jack

Summed up very nicely.

Originally Posted by 2012FB

I never let it get to that. I replaced the Good Year trailer tires as soon as I took delivery on the last 3 new Airstreams. 100,000+ miles from one end of the country to the other under all kinds of conditions. No TPMS, no checking them every time I stop, no worrying about changing a roadside tire on the side of a busy interstate. No worries about significant trailer damage due to a blowout. Care-free travels. Priceless!

This is such a fun continued/repeat thread. A trailer tire is nowhere near the construction quality of a Michelin LT or RIB, period. Will it work? Sure. Is it the best tire to protect your Airstream investment? No, not even close.

Agreed 100% on all points.

[TeddyK]

Originally Posted by JetstreamAS

We went with the T03 in 16" at 6 bolt/5.5" in Black/Machined and the Michelin Agilis Crossclimates at the 225/75R16C (121/120R) size (get the right one with a higher load, there are 2).

https://m.tirerack.com/tires/tires.j...omCompare1=yes

https://trailersetgo.com/store/t03-1...-trailer-wheel


Trailer.Set.Go had great prices and free shipping.

I’ve got the same, couldn’t be happier

[BTCMUSN]

Originally Posted by TeddyK

I’ve got the same, couldn’t be happier

TeddyK, I love mine too so far but just recently upgraded...just curious, why did you upgrade? Many "white paper" responses I"m sure you have read but was wondering why you went to 16" Michelins?

[gypsydad]

Not sure there is a disagreement on Michelin or GYE being bad tires for use with TT's, but there are big differences in the design, construction, and materials of ST and LT based on use models. That's the point...not that either is bad for this application....

Here is a very interesting article on this topic that was posted couple years back with many of the same folks here participating in that "debate". (Though some of us may not remember?) I thought the "maze" article quite good...

http://maze.airstreamlife.com/2015/0...ut-everything/

Previous post: https://www.airforums.com/forums/f43...ns-211084.html

If Michelin still made a 15" LT rated tire like they did back in 2014 and prior, I would likely still be running them...but they don't; the GYE's are working fine.

[Wazbro]

Originally Posted by JetstreamAS

Disagree, as this data is not elusive. Plenty of members on Airforums have reported success regarding the "satisfaction and reliability of the switched up combination," yet none of the previously-alleged "dozens" of failures of Michelins in this application on Airforums have yet to be shown. Not one.

Here's one.
https://www.airforums.com/forums/f43...s2-165278.html

[JetstreamAS]

Thanks for posting that, not sure why it couldn’t be found!

Anyway, that is one…..one out of all
the people using them and one vs. the several that I have found on here just in the last two years or so that I looked back on and reviewed.

Loved to see this as well:

Originally Posted by blkmagikca

I am pleased to be able to report that Michelin has written to me and is covering the claim for the damages to the AS and the tire replacement.







It is comforting to know that Michelin stands behind their product.

The OP in that discussion was still fielding grief that “it’s not a trailer tire,” “it isn’t a warranty issue,” “it’s not covered by warranty but was ‘goodwill’ “ and whatnot.

Bottom line: nowhere near (one, two or three?) the reported failures on a Michelin tire vs. the GYEs (not the Marathons) and most importantly (aside from nobody being injured) Michelin stood by their tire even after 30,000 miles and “a non-trailer tire” being used on an Airstream - and they paid for the trailer damage as well!

That is entirely consistent with my 20+ year experience with Michelin on cars and trucks with commercial use, personal vehicles and at the track. For me, the discussion is over despite that OP getting a 2nd bad Michelin in that batch of tires and someone else with 6 year old tires and 30k miles?

Thanks again for finding that Wazbro!

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by JetstreamAS

Thanks for posting that, not sure why it couldn’t be found!

Anyway, that is one…..one out of all
the people using them and one vs. the several that I have found on here just in the last two years or so that I looked back on and reviewed...


...Bottom line: nowhere near (one, two or three?) the reported failures on a Michelin tire vs. the GYEs (not the Marathons) and most importantly (aside from nobody being injured) Michelin stood by their tire even after 30,000 miles and “a non-trailer tire” being used on an Airstream - and they paid for the trailer damage as well!

...

I'm not sure your math holds up if you're trying to say that this somehow demonstrates that Michelin tires have a better history when used on Airstreams than the GYE.

Perhaps the numbers of reported failures on Michelin is 'nowhere near' the number of reported failures on GYE because there are nowhere near the number of people running Michelin as compared to GYE.

The raw number of failures is meaningless without knowing the total count of the tires in use. The number we're looking for is the failure rate, and it's the only one which I know of that will provide useful information.

Also, lack of evidence is in itself not evidence. There are numerous reasons why people wouldn't post tire failures, and the fact that there are not postings about a particular brand/make/model failing doesn't provide evidence that there are no failures. Getting information from one of the industry monitoring agencies would provide much more unbiased and accurate data about the failure rates on tires.

[JetstreamAS]

Richard-

I have already posted in several discussions the links to the reported recent and multiple GYE failures. Whether there are more GYEs in use vs. Michelins is but one factor of many.

I’m not going to debate this with you time and time again. I am glad you love the GYE tire.

Thanks for your input.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by JetstreamAS

Richard-

I have already posted in several discussions the links to the reported recent and multiple GYE failures. Whether there are more GYEs in use vs. Michelins is but one factor of many.

I’m not going to debate this with you time and time again. I am glad you love the GYE tire.

Thanks for your input.

It's not about whether or not I love GYE or Michelin tires. It's about having a discussion based on facts and not anecdotes. The number of each type of tire in service really is a key factor here, not just one of many, as it is key to establishing the failure rate. Of course, the failures themselves would need to be assessed to determine if the failure was due to user error or actual tire failure.

I've already acknowledged that there are failures in GYE tires. The links you provided do demonstrate some of the failures. That by itself means nothing without knowing how many tires are actually in service and what failure rate those failures represent. As in, out of every 1,000 tires on the road, how many failures were there due to problems with the tires.

The fact that there are more GYE tires in use is very relevant to any discussion comparing the failure rate of the two types of tires, and without actual numbers it gets kind of frustrating to see continuing conversations trying to say one is better than the other. And yes, I've repeated this before but it still bears repeating again. Absent hard numbers, we're all just expressing our opinion on what we each like best.

I really don't care if in the end Michelin tires come out ahead in this conversation. If they do, I'll likely switch next time around. But that decision has to be based on data such as failure rates, not on a handful of reported failures and/or anecdotal evidence for/against each tire.

[JetstreamAS]

Richard-

When a peer-reviewed white paper is published with every verified situation where a GYE and a Michelin tire used on a trailer failed with a full breakdown of each event with video and forensic review of the failure, maybe then you will be comfortable with making a change.

Once again, thank you for your continued and thorough anecdotal input and opinion on the issue.

[Hans627]

Isn't it great to have choices!

[PatLee]

Uh, okay, back to the OP's original question:
I did this modification at JC and they told me the same thing. I did ask them to adjust the hitch if needed and their "hitch team" showed up as the trailer was being pulled out of the bay (work completed); and they did make an adjustment. The following year, I got the 3" lift and the hitch team showed up again to adjust the hitch. There was still a very slight 'sag' no matter what they did. One of the team members recommended I get air bags installed on the rear of the truck which I did, complete with a remote control to add or decrease air. Everything is level now.

[dmartinez]

Buy your wheels on line and tires at America’s Tire store save a lot of money off the dealer price. I lifted my trailer approximately 3” with lift kit more clearance for wheels and dreaded draggging rear bumper.

[Monoman]

Originally Posted by dmartinez

Buy your wheels on line and tires at America’s Tire store save a lot of money off the dealer price. I lifted my trailer approximately 3” with lift kit more clearance for wheels and dreaded draggging rear bumper.

We are getting ready to pick up our new (and first) AS. I was wondering how many folks running 16" wheels have also added the lift kit. Is it a no brainer to just do both sooner rather than later?