16 Inch Rims and Tires

[BayouBiker]

What was the cause of the blowout? Was it puncture due to road hazard, under inflation/overloading, excessive speed or defect? Was the switch informed by evidence the new configuration has documented improved reliability when used for towing?

[JetstreamAS]

Originally Posted by Glen Carter

After a blowout with my 15" and Goodyears, I switched to the 16" and Michelin Agillis Crosclimate 225/75R16C. The C-metric has a larger load capacity than the LT Crossclimate. Also has a directional tread pattern.

I went with the Lionshead Bearcat https://lionsheadtireandwheel.com/Be...Aluminum-Wheel

Sorry to hear this! I posted this in another discussion:

Originally Posted by JetstreamAS

I Googled the Endurance tire on Airforums and found these that talk about the Endurance tire (Facebook stuff?) and also one about ST tires (a few Endurance tire failure discussions). I couldn't find any with a Michelin failure on an Airstream trailer in that search but I am guessing this is because there are so many fewer of these on trailers unlike the Endurance tires? Might be some more info outside of this site for other trailers?

Here they are from Airforums:

https://www.airforums.com/forums/f43...rt-227342.html

https://www.airforums.com/forums/f43...ad-235810.html

I have searched on here and googled the web for reports of Michelin LT tires failing on a trailer and have come up empty. Now before the Tire Police start saying that "you have no warranty" (wrong), "they are not ST trailer tires" (irrelevant) or "there are so many fewer Michelins on Airstreams so of course you will see more GYE failures" (red herring, but I mentioned that above myself anyway!) please keep in mind you get what you pay for with a higher quality tire - as is the case with most things in life. Again, these come OEM on a Classic @ 30' and 33' from JC.

If a non-Airstream travel trailer was as good of quality/experience as an Airstream (putting all the QC fails and other "issues" aside for now - ha!) at half the cost then I would have bought a non-Airstream trailer. Same thing goes for a set of Michelins as far as I can tell.

The GYEs were fine but in my experience Michelin tires are generally far better than Goodyear tires.

[FredWilma]

Perhaps another plus for the 16” LT tire format is that they seem to be easier to procure. If you’re out in the boonies and lose a tire, it may be easier to find a 16” light truck tire to get you home, rather that a 15” trailer tire.

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by JetstreamAS

Sorry to hear this! I posted this in another discussion:



I have searched on here and googled the web for reports of Michelin LT tires failing on a trailer and have come up empty. Now before the Tire Police start saying that "you have no warranty" (wrong), "they are not ST trailer tires" (irrelevant) or "there are so many fewer Michelins on Airstreams so of course you will see more GYE failures" (red herring, but I mentioned that above myself anyway!) please keep in mind you get what you pay for with a higher quality tire - as is the case with most things in life. Again, these come OEM on a Classic @ 30' and 33' from JC.

If a non-Airstream travel trailer was as good of quality/experience as an Airstream (putting all the QC fails and other "issues" aside for now - ha!) at half the cost then I would have bought a non-Airstream trailer. Same thing goes for a set of Michelins as far as I can tell.

The GYEs were fine but in my experience Michelin tires are generally far better than Goodyear tires.

Statisticians might fault you for mixing anecdote with seeming as if you're attempting to cite fact based evidence. Additionally, it is certainly not a red herring that GYE is an ST tire while the Michelins are LT tires. It can go a long way to explain the supposed difficulty you had with your search.

Regardless, I am stumped as to why you found no posts here regarding Michelin tire failures on Airstreams. I can recall dozens of complaints and failure examples from posts in the 5 years I've been using this site and I have only read a fraction of what has been posted.

There are some good non-anecdotal ways to estimate if the GYE on whole is more or less reliable or has higher customer satisfaction than another tire but the effort to do it properly seems questionable, not the least of which because confirmation bias seems so strong on forums such as this I question if it will have any practical effect. I will suggest a simple but imperfect method and that is to use abreviated combined surveys from large tire dealer surveys such as Tire Rack and others. I did this a while ago when responding to a thread similar to this and found that people by a large margin of 5% are more more satisfied with the GYE than the Defender and Agilis and 20% more than several of other Michelins repurposed for trailers.

I hope most would agree the combined surveys of thousands of verified customers is a better predictor of reliability and satisfaction than a handful of kind folks posting here.

This is not to dissuade people from switching to 16 inch tires, as I indicated in my previous post there might be good reasons to do so. But the surveys seem to strongly suggest that tire satisfaction should not be one of them.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by BeachHouse

We switched to 16” rims and Michelin tires years ago before the Goodyear Endurance tires were available. I don’t think we would have switched had they been available. However, the Michelin tires have been perfect. They never (and I really mean never) need to have the air pressure adjusted. They just don’t loose air ever. I do adjust the pressure for summer/winter conditions.

Not needing to add air to tires probably has more to do with the installer and the methods he/she uses than the tire itself. Both the Michelin and the GYE are top tier tires, and both should hold air without difficulty.

However, it only take a small amount of corrosion/dirt/debris on the bead or the rim when mounting a tire to cause slow air loss over time. After watching a quality install years ago from a guy that knew his stuff I realized that most tire installers are skipping more steps than they're actually doing. A proper install starts with a thorough cleaning of the bead seating areas on the rim, with a polish if necessary to remove minor corrosion, and then continues from there.

[JetstreamAS]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

Statisticians might fault you for mixing anecdote with seeming as if you're attempting to cite fact based evidence. Additionally, it is certainly not a red herring that GYE is an ST tire while the Michelins are LT tires. It can go a long way to explain the supposed difficulty you had with your search.

Regardless, I am stumped as to why you found no posts here regarding Michelin tire failures on Airstreams. I can recall dozens of complaints and failure examples from posts in the 5 years I've been using this site and I have only read a fraction of what has been posted.

There are some good non-anecdotal ways to estimate if the GYE on whole is more or less reliable or has higher customer satisfaction than another tire but the effort to do it properly seems questionable, not the least of which because confirmation bias seems so strong on forums such as this I question if it will have any practical effect. I will suggest a simple but imperfect method and that is to use abreviated combined surveys from large tire dealer surveys such as Tire Rack and others. I did this a while ago when responding to a thread similar to this and found that people by a large margin of 5% are more more satisfied with the GYE than the Defender and Agilis and 20% more than several of other Michelins repurposed for trailers.

I hope most would agree the combined surveys of thousands of verified customers is a better predictor of reliability and satisfaction than a handful of kind folks posting here.

This is not to dissuade people from switching to 16 inch tires, as I indicated in my previous post there might be good reasons to do so. But the surveys seem to strongly suggest that tire satisfaction should not be one of them.

Hold on there Descartes, but your reading comprehension, attention to detail and analysis needs some work.

I didn’t say that the ST v. LT issue was a red herring.

I didn’t say that I was “cit[ing] fact based evidence.”

If you can recall “dozens” of Michelin failures on Air Forums it must be east to find and post a few.

Relying upon TR reviews for a GYE ST vs. a Michelin LT used on a trailer is simply ridiculous as the number of Agilis “trailer use” reviews (“non-trailer” tire) would be dwarfed by the GYE (“trailer” tire) reviews. The Agilis sample size on TR in that regard would be statistically irrelevant.

Finally, when it comes to a reason to switch to a 16” setup “[T]ire satisfaction should not be one of them”?

Really?

I think i’ll go fire up my compressor powered train horn in my truck!

[Glen Carter]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

What was the cause of the blowout? Was it puncture due to road hazard, under inflation/overloading, excessive speed or defect? Was the switch informed by evidence the new configuration has documented improved reliability when used for towing?

I have no clue of the cause of the blowout. It was July 2021 when it happened just outside Las Vegas about 102° and traveling about 65mph .... tires were set to 80psi at start of trip.

I almost missed the blowout, something felt off, so I decided to pull over. I was almost at an off ramp so I turned off, got out to look and no tire on right side!

Since I needed a wheel and tire, I went to 16" because of the look and the increased load capacity. I can get by with 65psi and room to spare.

Took a 3000mi trip and I like the Michlein tires.

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted by Glen Carter

I have no clue of the cause of the blowout. It was July 2021 when it happened just outside Las Vegas about 102° and traveling about 65mph .... tires were set to 80psi at start of trip.

I almost missed the blowout, something felt off, so I decided to pull over. I was almost at an off ramp so I turned off, got out to look and no tire on right side!

Since I needed a wheel and tire, I went to 16" because of the look and the increased load capacity. I can get by with 65psi and room to spare.

Took a 3000mi trip and I like the Michlein tires.Attachment 426064Attachment 426065

This is one of the problems BayouBiker is referring to. To my eye (and based on the description), that's caused by a road hazard. I don't think that should count as a failure.

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by JetstreamAS

If you can recall “dozens” of Michelin failures on Air Forums it must be east to find and post a few.

But since you apparently tried and failed, I'll leave it to someone more curious than I. Searching for individual posts describing a failure within threads on broader topics can be tricky. I suspect that is why your search failed. I can't help but suspect you doubt me.

Originally Posted by JetstreamAS

Relying upon TR reviews for a GYE ST vs. a Michelin LT used on a trailer is simply ridiculous as the number of Agilis “trailer use” reviews (“non-trailer” tire) would be dwarfed by the GYE (“trailer” tire) reviews. The Agilis sample size on TR in that regard would be statistically irrelevant.

Sample size only impacts accuracy if the size is too small for one or both groups. GYE experience in total was over 2M miles. The differences in sample size between the two samples has only a very small effect on accuracy. Certainly not to the point one can describe the outcome as "ridiculous".

It is not known whether Micheline customers who used the tires on trailers rate the tires differently than the entire customer base. I would ask if you had evidence of this nuance but I know the answer. It would only be ridiculous if there was a known and identifiable difference in the way customers rate a tire for trailer use vs. light truck use.

For the unbiased reader considering a switch to Michelins Highway LT tires (4 or so of which to choose from) from GYE, the outcome of these broad and large customer reviews should figure in the decision much more strongly than anecdotal reports or those making general statements about two manufacturers entire product line.

Originally Posted by JetstreamAS

Finally, when it comes to a reason to switch to a 16” setup “[T]ire satisfaction should not be one of them”?

Out of context. Let me help interpret my previous point for you. Given that the customer experience and reported reliability of the GYE is more favorable over a broad segment of the user bases, we might very well conclude the GYE is the better tire and thus one should not switch based on the possibly false belief that they will have a more reliable or satisfactory experience unless someone can come forward and demonstrate objectively that the new configuration will in fact be more reliable.

No horn needed.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

But since you apparently tried and failed, I'll leave it to someone more curious than I. Searching for individual posts describing a failure within threads on broader topics can be tricky. I suspect that is why your search failed. I can't help but suspect you doubt me.



Sample size only impacts accuracy if the size is too small for one or both groups. GYE experience in total was over 2M miles. The differences in sample size between the two samples has only a very small effect on accuracy. Certainly not to the point one can describe the outcome as "ridiculous".

It is not known whether Micheline customers who used the tires on trailers rate the tires differently than the entire customer base. I would ask if you had evidence of this nuance but I know the answer. It would only be ridiculous if there was a known and identifiable difference in the way customers rate a tire for trailer use vs. light truck use.

For the unbiased reader considering a switch to Michelins Highway LT tires (4 or so of which to choose from) from GYE, the outcome of these broad and large customer reviews should figure in the decision much more strongly than anecdotal reports or those making general statements about two manufacturers entire product line.



Out of context. Let me help interpret my previous point for you. Given that the customer experience and reported reliability of the GYE is more favorable over a broad segment of the user bases, we might very well conclude the GYE is the better tire and thus one should not switch based on the possibly false belief that they will have a more reliable or satisfactory experience unless someone can come forward and demonstrate objectively that the new configuration will in fact be more reliable.

No horn needed.

No benefit to arguing with some folks here about tires, except to feel good that you got your point across..side wall construction and materials are main differences between the ST and LT and Passenger rated tires...ST tires are designed for fixed axle application of a trailer; "no turning" like on steer axle of a truck or tow vehicle. Many ST tires also had or have a speed rating in the 50-70mph, which is why many folks went to the LT tire. As highway speeds have increased over the past 10 year, so have towing speeds. The GYE's have speed rating N=87mph.

There are several articles out there on this topic (ST vs LT for towing), including this one:
https://www.rvandplaya.com/lt-vs-st-...ravel-trailer/

As for Michelin failures vs GYE failures, both are performing well, IMHO. If you want to spend the money to go to 16" tires so you can feel better about the looks, the clearance, and running Michelin LT rated tires, go for it...But don't try to tell us the Michelins are a better tire for the AS than the GYE's...ain't true. The Michelin LT rated tires were not designed to be used on a trailer. Hopefully, end of discussion?

[kscherzi]

My trailer came from the factory with 15" wheels and the notorious Goodyear Marathons. After two failures in three years I switched to 16" wheels and Michelin's. These tires were set and forget. Never leaked, rarely need more air, no flats or any trouble. Possibly because they weren't being run at their capacity limit like the 15" tires were. No noticeable handing change between truck and trailer. After 6 years and 40k I recently replaced them with a new set. Thats my experience

[richard5933]

The newer Goodyear Endurance are in a totally different league than the older Goodyear Marathon tires. Any comparisons involving the Marathon tires have no real bearing on a decision about the Endurance vs. Michelin.

[JetstreamAS]

Originally Posted by richard5933

The newer Goodyear Endurance are in a totally different league than the older Goodyear Marathon tires. Any comparisons involving the Marathon tires have no real bearing on a decision about the Endurance vs. Michelin.

I think his inference with his Marathons was that they may have perhaps "leaked," at times "need[ed] more air," had "flats" or other "trouble" per his statement.

Originally Posted by gypsydad

But don't try to tell us the Michelins are a better tire for the AS than the GYE's...ain't true. The Michelin LT rated tires were not designed to be used on a trailer. Hopefully, end of discussion?

Right, and so again - using them as OEM tires on a Classic defies their design yet Michelin and Airstream obviously recommend it. Saying an LT is not designed to be a "trailer tire" and therefore it is somehow inferior or only "just as good" as a GYE ST is like saying you can't put a rear rack on your Airstream or putting in a Truma as "it wasn't designed" for it yet all kinds of folks do it with success.

I am glad you love your GYE tires. Michelins have always worked well for me in all sorts of applications for over 20 years. Goodyears have not. That is enough for me.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by JetstreamAS

I think his inference with his Marathons was that they may have perhaps "leaked," at times "need[ed] more air," had "flats" or other "trouble" per his statement.....

As I said earlier, if a tire is leaking it's just as likely that the wheel and/or installation was the problem.

Since the tires AND the wheels were changed at the same time, we'll never know which was the problem.

This is not the first time that someone has made the switch to new wheels and Michelin tires and said that now they finally hold air, assuming that it was the new tires which 'fixed' the problem. Could just as likely (or more likely) been the new wheels which were the fix.

[pappy19]

We went the 16" wheels and Michelin Defenders E rated 10 years ago, and also added a full set of Centramatics for our AS and our F250. After 7 years, the Michelins looked brand new After towing 40,000 miles, but changed because of their age. With the Centramatics on my F250, I got nearly 20,000 more miles on my Michelins than before. Great product.

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by JetstreamAS

Right, and so again - using them as OEM tires on a Classic defies their design yet Michelin and Airstream obviously recommend it. Saying an LT is not designed to be a "trailer tire" and therefore it is somehow inferior or only "just as good" as a GYE ST is like saying you can't put a rear rack on your Airstream or putting in a Truma as "it wasn't designed" for it yet all kinds of folks do it with success.

There are good reasons to consider a trailer tire like the GYE over a truck tire like the Agilis or similar from Micheline. They were briefly mentioned in a previous post. One is the sidewall design. The GYE is designed to resist catastrophic damage from curb scuffing. Another is increased inter-ply strain due to dual or triple fixed axles and the geometry involve in cornering. Again the GYE design addresses that. On the flip side, DOT requires more rigorous testing standards for LT tires. In the end it is difficult to know which tire is actually "better". The fact that Airstream and other trailer manufactures selects GYE in one case and Micheline for another does not inform us which would be more reliable if the wheel and tire combination is switched up. Common sense would dictate following the same pattern used by the trailer manufacturer unless one has hard data supporting that the manufacturers are wrong. Airstream uses the larger rims on their larger trailers for appearance, cornering and load considerations. It is unfortunate Goodyear does not make the GYE in a 225/70R16 or 225/75R16 or perhaps a 225/65R17. If they did, I wonder what Airstream would choose for their trailers.

As previously mentioned a large sample of road experience reports of satisfaction and reliability of the switched up combination would provide this data. Unfortunately this precise data is elusive.

However logic failures including the category errors in the quote above certainly does not inform us of which combination may be most reliable.

[John Ware]

I like the GoodYear tires that are on my AS. I don't see the advantage of swapping rims just to put 16" tires on it. On the other hand I have LT tires on my lowboy that I regularly haul 10,000 lbs of hay on with no problem. Aren't the rear tires on a light truck always trailing the front tires? My stock trailer came with LT tires and now that I have radial trailer tires on it they help control trailer sway a lot better when my load of calves start moving around. Couldn't that be said of a static load as well?

[BayouBiker]

The Endurance tire is also a radial tire as are the Micheline tires. Inter-ply stress issues refer primarily to tandem and triple axle trailer not single axle trailers or the rear axle of vehicle. Radial tires provide much better sway stability primarily due to improved cornering stiffness. I agree with your comments and agree your comments apply to static loads just as well.

[JetstreamAS]

Originally Posted by richard5933

As I said earlier, if a tire is leaking it's just as likely that the wheel and/or installation was the problem.

Since the tires AND the wheels were changed at the same time, we'll never know which was the problem.

This is not the first time that someone has made the switch to new wheels and Michelin tires and said that now they finally hold air, assuming that it was the new tires which 'fixed' the problem. Could just as likely (or more likely) been the new wheels which were the fix.

This is an unlikely scenario that someone is going to replace 4 wheels and tires (plus and a spare wheel and tire) due to one bad wheel making a tire leak.

[2012FB]

Originally Posted by JetstreamAS

This is an unlikely scenario that someone is going to replace 4 wheels and tires (plus and a spare wheel and tire) due to one bad wheel making a tire leak.

I never let it get to that. I replaced the Good Year trailer tires as soon as I took delivery on the last 3 new Airstreams. 100,000+ miles from one end of the country to the other under all kinds of conditions. No TPMS, no checking them every time I stop, no worrying about changing a roadside tire on the side of a busy interstate. No worries about significant trailer damage due to a blowout. Care-free travels. Priceless!

This is such a fun continued/repeat thread. A trailer tire is nowhere near the construction quality of a Michelin LT or RIB, period. Will it work? Sure. Is it the best tire to protect your Airstream investment? No, not even close.