Baraldi Stove Vent Fan Problems

[kittmaster]

My new sensor came in yesterday....will be installing it and reporting back shorty.

[kittmaster]

I have the new sensor installed. I will be trying it out this weekend and report back the results.

[kittmaster]

I fully reassembled it to factory condition, including all the zip ties to hold the wiring.......bolted up and ready for the real test.

I had the heat on in the trailer and the inside got to about 48F (currently 33F outside) and then turned on all 3 burners full output......for about 5-6 minutes.....fan remained ON.

I then turned off fan and left 3 burners running for heat "accumulation" in the vent.......turned switch for fan on....fan turned ON.

Left running full 3 burners for another 5 minutes or so.....fan remained ON.

So in essence.....I swapped out the T80 sensor for a T140 and it "appears" to solve the problem.

Of course I won't truly know until it is the summer time again under similar conditions.....but I don't think a 30 degree cabin delta makes much of a difference since the 3 burners are directly pushing heat into the fan assembly.

It "may" be different in the mid summer time, but for now, I'm calling this a successful repair and still ultimately maintains the spirit of the protection for the improper space requirement given by Baraldi.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask....it is a relatively simple fix and start to finish probably about a 3 hour process assuming you have all the tools to make the fix happen.

Chris

[lzhome]

It has been a long time since I read all of these posting, but do you have photos and a source for the new sensor? And is souter (sp) required or wire nuts? Thanks.

[kittmaster]

Originally Posted by lzhome

It has been a long time since I read all of these posting, but do you have photos and a source for the new sensor? And is souter (sp) required or wire nuts? Thanks.

The link is here to buy:

http://www.carbonbrush.com/klixon2MM.htm

2MMT140-42

Images are above, scroll up.

I would NOT suggest wire nuts (small gauge stranded wires), there is a lot of vibration when the motor spins (the fan blades are not perfectly symmetrical adding to the vibrations) and the wires are tie wrapped to the motor assembly.

The wires are soldered and heat shrunk and anchored via zip tie to secure it all.

The sensor itself sits in a raceway so that the plastic cover forces it to touch the motor. It "looked" like it was just free hanging in the photos above, but when assembled, it touches the back of the motor body.

I have a few other pics I can post tomorrow.

[Jasper Ash]

Originally Posted by panamerican

Can anyone that has a MY2020 confirm that this is still an ongoing problem?

Yep... it’s still an ongoing problem. Our vent hood fan shuts off after a few minutes using only one burner to boil water.

As DavidKl mentioned, it’s honestly downright offensive that Airstream is sending units to dealers with so many issues. Quality control at Airstream is horrible. I’ve had my factory ordered brand new Airstream for a month and my punch-list of issues is far too long. I get it, it’s an RV and there are going to be issues. But come on, Airstream! I realize that they’re slinging out units and can’t keep up with demand but something has to change. Going into my purchase I knew that Airstream was struggling to keep up with demand, I tried to make it clear that we did not want to rush Airstream because I wanted them to get it right the first time since they’re handcrafted. But here I am, unable to boil water among other inexcusable quality control issues.

I hate to be so negative. But it’s hard not to when I spent $80k on a product only to feel like I might have made the biggest financial mistake of my life. Anyway, that’s the end of my rant. Hopefully it serves as caution to others considering buying new. I do take responsibility for not doing as much research as I should have and putting so much faith in the product that I overlooked a lot when taking delivery.

Kittmaster - thank you so much for the info you’ve posted so far. It’s going to be very helpful to a lot of other frustrated Airstream owners. I really appreciate the knowledge you all pass on to us here on the forums. I must say that the Airstream community is one of the reasons that I am happy with my purchase. You guys rock!

I pray that as time goes on, Airstream customer service and dealer network make things right for those of us having these frustrations.

[kittmaster]

Originally Posted by Jasper Ash

Kittmaster - thank you so much for the info you’ve posted so far. It’s going to be very helpful to a lot of other frustrated Airstream owners. I really appreciate the knowledge you all pass on to us here on the forums. I must say that the Airstream community is one of the reasons that I am happy with my purchase. You guys rock!

YW, I'm just surprised this has been going on for 5 years and still present an issue like this. There is no excuse for it.

The real test will come this summer, but as I mentioned I ran 3 burners on high for like 5 minutes and it never shut off.....so I'm pretty sure the fix is final, but will report back after a few summer outings under normal use cases.

[MonacoJay]

Originally Posted by kittmaster

YW, I'm just surprised this has been going on for 5 years and still present an issue like this. There is no excuse for it.



The real test will come this summer, but as I mentioned I ran 3 burners on high for like 5 minutes and it never shut off.....so I'm pretty sure the fix is final, but will report back after a few summer outings under normal use cases.

I changed the two light bulbs to LED. The halogen bulbs are too hot to touch AND close to the safety sensor. Voila

[kittmaster]

Originally Posted by MonacoJay

I changed the two light bulbs to LED. The halogen bulbs are too hot to touch AND close to the safety sensor. Voila

Did you take any pictures? If so, post em up!

[mixedpuppy]

I'm curious of the bypass is simply cutting the sensor off and connecting the wires directly. Anyone know for certain? Is the sensor closed by default, opening when its heat index is (supposedly) reached?

[Meriwether]

Originally Posted by mixedpuppy

I'm curious of the bypass is simply cutting the sensor off and connecting the wires directly. Anyone know for certain? Is the sensor closed by default, opening when its heat index is (supposedly) reached?

Yes, I did the ‘remove and bypass’ a year ago and it works. Don’t waste your time installing a Thermal Cutout with a higher rating.

The real issue is that Airstream did not follow the Baraldi installation specifications. The hood is to be installed a minimum of 30” off the stove top.

Consequently the thermal cutout cannot function as intended.

- the function of the cutout is to protect the fan motor in the event it draws too much electrical current.

Since the hood is too low relative to the stove top, when the cutout senses too much heat from the stove top it turns off the fan.
This is not the design intention at all.

Installing a cutout with a higher rating simply voids the design intention.

[kittmaster]

Originally Posted by mixedpuppy

I'm curious of the bypass is simply cutting the sensor off and connecting the wires directly. Anyone know for certain? Is the sensor closed by default, opening when its heat index is (supposedly) reached?

As I have actually modified mine. The sensor is inline with the positive DC lead of the motor itself. It is normally closed while under the temperature cutoff value. When the temp value is exceeded, it opens the positive lead and turns the fan off.

The recovery time of the device can take up to 30 minutes to reconnect and let the fan turn back on, which is basically useless.

This is why Airstream is removing them instead of replacing them with a higher value.

It also isn't an easy process to get it all back together...but certainly doable.

We have used our stove several times now and it doesn't cut out anymore.....but we still have the safety aspect in place because Airstream didn't follow the installation guidelines from Baraldi.....so it is a choice......have some safety or none.....I chose the former.


=============================


NINJA EDIT: As Meriwether mentioned, the design intent is to measure the current to protect the motor in case of a fault condition.....but the heat from the stove heats up the device and causes a false positive that the motor is drawing to much current and shuts down. So as he mentioned, voids the design intention for safety of the fan motor.

Here is a cut excerpt from the datasheet of the device itself:

The operating principle of the 2MM is both simple and effective. A
current flows through the resistive Klixon® bimetal disc. When a fault
condition occurs, the increased current and ambient temperature make
the bimetal disc snap open the contacts. The contacts close again
automatically as the device cools down to a safe running temperature.

Link: https://www.sensata.com/sites/defaul...-datasheet.pdf

Regards,
Chris

[BagODoughnut]

I had the same problem with our 2018 FC. I just cut the sensor out and soldered the wires together, put some heatshrink tubing over the splice. To reassemble the fan back into the housing I used sheet metal screws that were large enough in diameter and an inch long to bite into the motor mount holes (the screws and nuts that were there were really difficult to put back on).

Runs fine with 3 burners going. Don't really know if the heat will ruin the motor but I think not. Airflow will keep it cooler than it not running over a hot stove. There still is a fuse in case of some DC short in the brushes, rotor, etc.

[panamerican]

Originally Posted by kittmaster

YW, I'm just surprised this has been going on for 5 years and still present an issue like this. There is no excuse for it.

The real test will come this summer, but as I mentioned I ran 3 burners on high for like 5 minutes and it never shut off.....so I'm pretty sure the fix is final, but will report back after a few summer outings under normal use cases.

So you are telling me that a roughly $13 (retail price) part that if bought in bulk could cost 1/2 that, the decision beside installing the vent correctly, the new units coming off the line today have zero thermal sensors? Sorry, that sounds like something the big 3 would do.....save .50 a car over 1 million cars, and have the actuaries run the numbers what cost more, building it right or cut a corner and see how much a lawsuit might cost...and this has been going on for 5 years? What next, pull troublesome brake actuators, I mean in most cases there are between 1 and 3 more that might work.

Seems to me that before the hood is installed it'd be a heck of a lot easier than once it's installed to do this fix....I mean they are already going in there to remove it from what I've read here, why not just put the 140 degree thermal sensor/switch in there while they are already there?! Better yet, install it correctly in the first place where modifications to the hood are not necc?!

Sometime you just have to shake your head at the motivations behind such boneheaded decisions such as this- where the end user has to take things into their own hands to a) have a working product and b)still have some level of stove safety on a nearly 6 figure (or above 6 figure purchase). Just mind numbing.

[BayouBiker]

I suppose you could describe the purpose of the thermal switch as safety but it is more to avoid allowing customers to accidentally burn out the fan motor by running it with the vent closed or blocked while the stove is also on. It's unfortunate that the installation configuration in Airstreams has made it overly sensitive to cook top heat even when airflow is good.

[waninae39]

in high vibration ares, consider wire crimpers. they do not come loose
you can solder also if you how

[kittmaster]

Originally Posted by panamerican

So you are telling me that a roughly $13 (retail price) part that if bought in bulk could cost 1/2 that, the decision beside installing the vent correctly, the new units coming off the line today have zero thermal sensors? Sorry, that sounds like something the big 3 would do.....save .50 a car over 1 million cars, and have the actuaries run the numbers what cost more, building it right or cut a corner and see how much a lawsuit might cost...and this has been going on for 5 years? What next, pull troublesome brake actuators, I mean in most cases there are between 1 and 3 more that might work.

Seems to me that before the hood is installed it'd be a heck of a lot easier than once it's installed to do this fix....I mean they are already going in there to remove it from what I've read here, why not just put the 140 degree thermal sensor/switch in there while they are already there?! Better yet, install it correctly in the first place where modifications to the hood are not necc?!

Sometime you just have to shake your head at the motivations behind such boneheaded decisions such as this- where the end user has to take things into their own hands to a) have a working product and b)still have some level of stove safety on a nearly 6 figure (or above 6 figure purchase). Just mind numbing.

Well keep in mind, it isn't that Airstream doesn't "want to do the right thing"........but if you ever visited and toured the factory, the amount of labor it takes to take the thing out of the box, modify it, and the reassemble the units....it is just not feasible from a production point of view. Since they are buying these units "off the shelf", they get what they get and because they are violating the height clearance.....the thermal rise of the stove is bumping into the preset value they use.

Now what they COULD do is order a special SKU based on volume with Baraldi (which they'd would most likely accommodate) and have the OEM use the higher temperature sensor and then all would be right with the world......but if you know anything about engineering.....and couple with that with Ohio, it may never get updated because of all the extra legwork to have to contend with it.......I guess it is easier to triage the ones that don't work and run the numbers.........who knows.......

Either way...mine has been great all this year in the heat and never cuts out and will have the "safety" factor if push comes to shove.

[INA]

I am having the fan problem on my 2020 fc. I'm looking at you post from a coule of years ago re the therm switch that cuts off power to the fan and wondering if a fix is to simply remove the thermocouple and solder in a wire to complete the circuit then call it good. TIA

[kittmaster]

Originally Posted by INA

I am having the fan problem on my 2020 fc. I'm looking at you post from a coule of years ago re the therm switch that cuts off power to the fan and wondering if a fix is to simply remove the thermocouple and solder in a wire to complete the circuit then call it good. TIA

I outline how to fix this in my posts above. There are two choices, either you can do it or someone else will. The sensor is embedded in the motor assembly and it is a real PITA to reassemble.

This is assuming you want to replace the sensor to something higher, if not, then you can BYPASS the sensor by cutting it out of the loop and reconnecting the motor wire to the incoming power wire from the trailer....then it will just turn on and stay on until you turn it off, or the the motor dies over time/heat exposure of the stove/oven.

I opted to raise the temperature range because if there is a REAL problem, while my solution is not "perfect" it still offers some layer of protection......and if "in my case" it DOES shut when we are cooking......then I know there is a REAL heat problem and will prompt me to shut down what we are doing.....

Baraldi is really conservative on the temp they selected because half the assembly is plastic....high temp plastic, but still, if it hits 500F plus, that entire assembly is going to start melting.....

It will continue to happen to you until you either bypass the sensor or replace it with a higher value to prevent the issue.

As a note, We've used the trailer in very hot climates (hottest on record for our state) and the fan has never shut off using 3 burners and the oven at the same time........so IMO, our problem is fixed......YMMV.

Good luck.

Chris

[Gtx Eng]

Just reporting in - still an issue in our 2021 FC. Had the fan cut out the first time I ran all three burners. Posted about the event in the Repair forum and someone linked me to this thread. I too am a bit surprised that this has been a known issue for so many years and still unresolved.

I agree with the solution that has been arrived at on the thread - makes sense to this engineer. Also, an interesting read to see years of trials zero in on the solution.

I have seen Klixon TCO's used in many motor windings, but these are embedded in the windings to directly measure the temperatures and prevent overheating the winding insulation. After seeing all of this, my opinion is that AS attempted to use a TCO located in the fan inlet airstream (no pun) to measure that airstream temperature as a means of shutting off the fan and getting a user's attention that the fan vent damper is still closed. The problem is the TCO limit is too low or the airstream airflow rates are not high enough.

I'm going to try one more experiment:

Since the inlet air temperature to the fan is a result of how much products of combustion (how many burners running at what capacity) and how much inlet air (cfm) and the temperature of that air (inside camper temperature), then varying the inputs may result in a combination that provides reliable operation with the factory TCO.

I'll try running all three burners on high and making sure that other exhausts are not running (they will be competing with the vent fan for makeup air) and opening a window or FF cover to provide a source for makeup air. The attempt here is to increase the amount of air that the vent fan can pull, thus diluting the temperature of the range products of combustion at the hood.

It could all be a fool's errand, but I haven't seen anyone mention trying it yet.

Will report back.

Jay