TAC organization: Units or Regions or States?

[Dave Park]

Originally Posted by Over59

This seems more and more to be recreating the old format. How on earth did we get a magizne, websit, yahoo group, and people thinking about regions?

For a loose-nit group to make things happen needs them to communicate.

Magazine: communication
Website: communication
Group: communication
Regions: well, we don't have regions, but if we did, it would only be about communication, with people local to you. But we don't. So....

The best way to have a no-organization club run is just to have it so everyone knows where and how to communicate with each other.

[Over59]

Originally Posted by Dave Park

For a loose-nit group to make things happen needs them to communicate.

Magazine: communication
Website: communication
Group: communication
Regions: well, we don't have regions, but if we did, it would only be about communication, with people local to you. But we don't. So....

The best way to have a no-organization club run is just to have it so everyone knows where and how to communicate with each other.

Seems to me we already do that.....

[exthemius]

In very inefficient ways. Instead of having to search through a myriad of forum posts trying to figure out when/where the TAC rallies are, you can just go to the TAC website, and there they are -- no searching required. Want a hard copy -- print out the Magazine.

How on earth did we get a magizne, websit, yahoo group,

Because we want to make it easy for our members to get together -- and this particular forum isn't exactly the easiest place to find out when rallies are -- it's awesome for a lot of other things, but club feedback, coordination and planning are not its strengths, that's for sure.

[Aage]

Originally Posted by exthemius

In very inefficient ways. Instead of having to search through a myriad of forum posts trying to figure out when/where the TAC rallies are, you can just go to the TAC website, and there they are -- no searching required. Want a hard copy -- print out the Magazine.

Because we want to make it easy for our members to get together -- and this particular forum isn't exactly the easiest place to find out when rallies are -- it's awesome for a lot of other things, but club feedback, coordination and planning are not its strengths, that's for sure.

Huh? When I log on, on the Portal page there's about twenty-five lines there that show ALL the upcoming rallies: "Airstream Rally Calendar" it's called.

The titles give the dates, place and most also show the association giving it.

I don't see anything difficult, or "inefficient" about that, it's right in your face every time you visit here.

[exthemius]

You're right, but people tend to put the information in THREADS rather than the calendar, as they are (in the case with TAC anyway) trying to figure out the who/what/when/why/how's of it all. Listen, this isn't a knock again airforumns at all, I just find it easier for TAC to simply have someone (in this case me) aggregate all of the information together and disseminate it into 2 easy to use, dedicated outlets: the website and the magazine. Over59 asked why we have a magazine and a website now, and it's simply for us to get information out there easily. I think it's just easier to have a one-stop shop for all of the TAC info (or really two, the website and the magazine).

[Frank's Trailer Works]

my God , is anyone ever happy? Complaining about having a club website, and a newsletter? I have come to realize no matter how much or how little you do, someone, or some people are just never happy about it. Maybe yet another club should be started, a club about nothing. Some one would complain about that too.

PS consider me BOHN... Bummed out by human nature.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by 62overlander

my God , is anyone ever happy? Complaining about having a club website, and a newsletter? I have come to realize no matter how much or how little you do, someone, or some people are just never happy about it. Maybe yet another club should be started, a club about nothing. Some one would complain about that too.

PS consider me BOHN... Bummed out by human nature.

Frank, the only solution is to live in a cave. Otherwise, it never stops. You can't please everyone. Burn out is always a problem for people who volunteer because of the complaints and the fact that most people don't help do the work. The amount of work needed in even the simplest organization is daunting.

Gene

[exthemius]

Yeah, I'm just going to put the preverbal blinders on from here on out, and just put the stuff together on the website, attend a few rallies and enjoy my family. I'm not in TAC or volunteering for TAC to really please anyone other than myself, as I want a club that has fun with FAMILIES - purely selfish reasons on my part. If it helps ME locate and organize the rallies near me, or stuff that I'm interested in, then I'll still maintain the website even if nobody else uses it. *shrug*

[WineStream]

Originally Posted by Aage

Huh? When I log on, on the Portal page there's about twenty-five lines there that show ALL the upcoming rallies: "Airstream Rally Calendar" it's called.

The titles give the dates, place and most also show the association giving it.

I don't see anything difficult, or "inefficient" about that, it's right in your face every time you visit here.

Originally Posted by exthemius

You're right, but people tend to put the information in THREADS rather than the calendar, as they are (in the case with TAC anyway) trying to figure out the who/what/when/why/how's of it all. Listen, this isn't a knock again airforumns at all, I just find it easier for TAC to simply have someone (in this case me) aggregate all of the information together and disseminate it into 2 easy to use, dedicated outlets: the website and the magazine. Over59 asked why we have a magazine and a website now, and it's simply for us to get information out there easily. I think it's just easier to have a one-stop shop for all of the TAC info (or really two, the website and the magazine).

I'm kinda stuck in the middle of both of those outlooks. I think the method(s) of posting and finding rallies on Airforums is very adequate and I'm satisfied with it. That being said, it is nice to be able to go somewhere and find all of just the TAC rallies. Bottom line, the more someone can put into the title of a thread or the title of a calendar entry the better; i.e. TAC, state or major city, date. If you're poking around on Airforums then you have to kinda sift and look for just the TAC events. If you want them all listed and only TAC events, right there in your face, then you use the TAC site.

On a general note, I'm not thrilled with Google groups that is being used by the TAC site so even though I am subscribed to it, I have no plans at this time to start any threads over there. I like the standard forum format like is used here at Airforums and seemingly 95% of all other discussion websites.

I think it's necessary to have the website for sure and for the magazine. In this day and age, if someone tells me that there's such and such a group that I should look in to, my first stop is to Google it. If they don't have their own website, I'm not joining. Having an online newsletter / magazine is just bonus points in my book.

[rebelstand]

Originally Posted by WineStream

On a general note, I'm not thrilled with Google groups that is being used by the TAC site so even though I am subscribed to it, I have no plans at this time to start any threads over there. I like the standard forum format like is used here at Airforums and seemingly 95% of all other discussion websites.

* personal note - I am married to Exthemius of TAC webmaster fame. This is not a personal attack on any one individual. Just a general statement to everyone.

Everyone has and is entitled to a preference as to what should or shouldn't be used. A perfect example is the MAC vs PC debate. It' on going and will never end. (MAC RULES!!) However, Exthemius had to make a choice on what to use with very little input from anyone. He needed a format that everyone/anyone could use/update not just a computer/website programmer. That way should he ever need to pass the webmaster job onto someone else they wouldn't need 15 years experience in web design/programming to do the job.

So I would like everyone to consider this:

He stepped up to take on the job. He wasn't asked. He volunteered for it.

He is taking time that would be spent with me, our 8 year old son, and our six year old daughter in order to provide a service for a club he believes in and hopes to participate in for years to come.

He's spent hours helping people who have had problems with the site and trying to figure out how/what the membership would like added. Some people have not been so nice about it either!

His wife is getting upset with people complaining about his choice formats for the website. Not to mention the lack of respect shown in some of the emails he has received!

[drag'nwagon]

Originally Posted by exthemius

Yeah, I'm just going to put the preverbal blinders on from here on out, and just put the stuff together on the website, attend a few rallies and enjoy my family. I'm not in TAC or volunteering for TAC to really please anyone other than myself, as I want a club that has fun with FAMILIES - purely selfish reasons on my part. If it helps ME locate and organize the rallies near me, or stuff that I'm interested in, then I'll still maintain the website even if nobody else uses it. *shrug*

Shawn,

It sounds to me as though you are doing the right things, for the right people, and for all the right reasons! Keep up the good work, and THANK YOU for volunteering your time and efforts for TAC and for keeping everyone's best interest in mind.

[WineStream]

Originally Posted by rebelstand

He stepped up to take on the job. He wasn't asked. He volunteered for it.

He is taking time that would be spent with me, our 8 year old son, and our six year old daughter in order to provide a service for a club he believes in and hopes to participate in for years to come.

He's spent hours helping people who have had problems with the site and trying to figure out how/what the membership would like added. Some people have not been so nice about it either!

His wife is getting upset with people complaining about his choice formats for the website. Not to mention the lack of respect shown in some of the emails he has received!

I sincerely hope that this volunteer-run club is not going to turn in to a "you don't do as much as I/we do, so you should just sit back and not say anything". Volunteerism is exactly that...you give your time and effort and expect no compensation or perks as a result. It doesn't make one immune to criticism either. It's been stated many times that you get what you give in this club. If you want to give your all, you can, and you should expect nothing in return. If you give nothing, then that's your prerogative and either you're happy with mooching or you become guilt-ridden or otherwise remove yourself from the group because no one socializes with you.

For the record, Andrea isn't always happy with what I offer to do either. And I can't explain to my 2 and 4 year old why daddy isn't there. I just hope that 20 years from now my kids say, "I remember dad always lending a hand, stepping up when help was needed and I see now why he did it and I'm going to do the same."

[exthemius]

I sincerely hope that this volunteer-run club is not going to turn in to a "you don't do as much as I/we do, so you should just sit back and not say anything".

It's certainly not going to from my perspective, but I firmly believe that you shouldn't complain about something unless you're prepared to either provide a different solution, or work towards correcting whatever issue it is that you're complaining about. The comments that I've gotten so far have been either it's awesome, great to have it....or it's crap and I don't like it. I have yet to receive any constructive criticism or alternative proposals.

Here's the thing about the Google Groups choice: it's not airforums -- it wasn't meant to be airforums, and I certainly do not want to re-invent the wheel and try to make it airforums. It appears that 99.9% of the complaints have been against that choice....and no one has bothered to ask why that particular choice was made. Most of what I've received to date has been either "I love this and this is great", or "I hate this...and why did we do that....and lag this and email that".

Here's my thought process on the choices that I made in regards to infrastructure:

1. We need a place for TAC members to discuss TAC things in private.
2. We need a mechanism to easily and quickly reach/communicate with all TAC members.
3. We need a place for TAC members to work through issues, questions, and the like, as well as have "virtual" meetings if needed.

Google Groups allows these because, first and foremost, it is an email distribution system with a web-wrapper -- meaning it's a lot like to old usenet groups. It has forum-like functionality (i.e. a browser front-end), but its power is in the email. A lot of people have complained about the emails....but in my opinion there's just not going to be that many emails back and forth, but it allows us members to quickly and easily communicate with each other about club stuff without a browser. With this setup, a member can create a post simply my sending an email, or reply to other within the group simply with an email -- much simpler and more efficient than a browser-based forum.

Having said all of this, if the members would prefer the normal phpBB software to be used, I already have one waiting in the wings, and it can/will function in the same basic manner that airforums does. I'm here to serve...this isn't a dictatorship.

[rebelstand]

Originally Posted by WineStream

I sincerely hope that this volunteer-run club is not going to turn in to a "you don't do as much as I/we do, so you should just sit back and not say anything". "

I could not agree with you more. I personally feel that volunteerism is something that is a good example for our kids. Trust me if I wanted to turn someone into a martyr I can do a much better job (it was taught to me from the crib).

Critique the site all you want, it was meant as a starting point to grow from. What I am taking exception to is the lack of ideas for improvement and the tone some have used (granted not by you). We have received more than one nastily toned email this week. I also think that those critiques do not belong on these forums but thru an email to the TAC webmaster.

[WineStream]

Originally Posted by exthemius

Here's my thought process on the choices that I made in regards to infrastructure:

1. We need a place for TAC members to discuss TAC things in private.
2. We need a mechanism to easily and quickly reach/communicate with all TAC members.
3. We need a place for TAC members to work through issues, questions, and the like, as well as have "virtual" meetings if needed.

Having said all of this, if the members would prefer the normal phpBB software to be used, I already have one waiting in the wings, and it can/will function in the same basic manner that airforums does. I'm here to serve...this isn't a dictatorship.

1. Airforums. You can setup a private forum where each participant must be approved to participate in the sub-forum.
2. email? An email addy is given with the registration for each TAC member. Seems like it should be easy enough to fire off an email to everyone.
3. Airforums. You can start a new thread under the private forum or you can setup a semi-private chat room.

The reason for my original criticism if the groups was not intended to create such a fervor. But, due to the cumbersomeness of posting, reading...I was pointing out that Airforums is still going to be my means of choice to get the word out. I'll read the groups, maybe reply. I thought that when the TAC was announced, it was also stated that the Airforums would be the TAC's means of communication. Now, I've got to look at two discussion sites to keep up on what's going on. I'd really prefer that Airforums remain the center of the communication universe.

Don't get me wrong here. The WEBSITE is great. The schedule of TAC only events is a good idea. A general web-based presence of TAC only is great. I'm just not crazy about how Google groups works. Airforums works great and we all know the system. It's kinda the "if it isn't broke don't fix it" mentality. I just don't see why we needed an alternative to Airforums.

[Dave Park]

I just want to say that I'm not crazy about any of the google docs/groups products and think they don't achieve the goal we're looking for. However, a bunch of people talked it though and said that they wanted a free, no organization club which means the only things that happen, happen because a volunteer picks up the ball, takes ownership of the problem and fixes it the way they know how.

Further, I think Airforums is an excellent community, based on a widely available, open and easily installable forum software, one of many, and it would be trivial for TAC to duplicate this should someone volunteer - but TAC is about community, not creating divisions.

We're just in this weird space where we're on the one hand trying to find an identity for ourselves, and on the other have a way to form a sense of community within our own ranks while also discovering our ranks want a lot of often incompatible things.

Also, the Airforums calendar doesn't seem to allow us to filter events by organizer or location, so it is a bit of work to find what you're looking for, and since they only put a short distance ahead, events planned WAY in the future simply don't show up unless people manually click through and look for them.

[Frank's Trailer Works]

Jason, could you look into setting up this private forum here on Airforums you speak of? It was at my request to Shawn, that the website have a forum attached to it so that we can bicker with out the entire world involved. If you can set this up, then great, more options for members is a good thing. Please keep in mind we continue to keep it "FREE" so that limits the options available to us...

I think Shawn has done a great job staying within budget I might add.

If you have any pissed off, ranting emails, send them to me. I have volunteered to be the Club whipping boy. I take my job very seriously.

[WineStream]

Originally Posted by 62overlander

Jason, could you look into setting up this private forum here on Airforums you speak of? It was at my request to Shawn, that the website have a forum attached to it so that we can bicker with out the entire world involved. If you can set this up, then great, more options for members is a good thing. Please keep in mind we continue to keep it "FREE" so that limits the options available to us...

Shawn and I communicated via PM last night regarding just that. I was involved in the setup of a private forum here and it works very well to this day. I gave him the info he needs to look into it for the TAC.

[Frank's Trailer Works]

Excellent, thank you both for your efforts for us all!!!

Are you packed yet for this weekend?

[exthemius]

google docs/groups products and think they don't achieve the goal we're looking for

What exactly is that goal? Docs/Groups cannot/shouldn't be grouped together -- I think you have to decouple the website from forum/discussion -- one (i.e. groups) was lumped on after the fact. As I have asked a lot of people what they want on the website and what their expectations are, and (again) haven't received too much back in the way of constructive criticism.