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NY24 · 02-06-2022, 01:48 PM

I do NOT see ICEs or gasoline going away anytime soon (say the next 10+ years). Big oil is NOT just going to roll over and go away. That and the fact that SO many ICE vehicles are (and will remain) in service along with their support systems are so well entrenched means that it will be a long uphill battle to get rid of them. As others have mentioned, unannounced / unforeseen costs for electric vehicles will slow down the adoption of e-vehicles. As for hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, I believe that is just more "pie in the sky" again, for at least the next 10+ years (if in fact it ever is ready for "prime time").

Mattedfred · 02-06-2022, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MIFC

Current real world (and yes, it will change):

https://tfltruck.com/2022/02/video-r...ingle-fill-up/

My thoughts on TFL Studios' range video:

TFL Studios whined for months to get this truck, had it for a week and this is the range while towing test they planned to complete?
An R1T can tow up to 11,000 lbs. They towed a 2000 lb teardop.
They either chose a tiny trailer relative to the maximum towing capacity (11,000 lbs), or were forced to tow a tiny trailer by Rivian, or went for the least expensive option because Colorado Teardrop gave them a loaner or paid them to use their trailer.
It would have been way more helpful to have least towed with 50% of the rated towing capacity.
What was the point in demonstrating that the Tundra would be able to travel farther than the R1T while towing? Even an idiot would've known this in advance. The real question was how to the range reductions for each vehicle compare? What is the comparable MPG?
Did the R1T's range reduce by 50%?
Did the Tundra's reduce by less?
What was the exact distance travelled by each vehicle?
What was the exact time so we can calculate the average speed?
What was the final MPG for the Tundra?
What was the comparable cost for the trip in each vehicle using Electrify America's rates and the current gas prices in Colorado?

LET51 · 02-06-2022, 02:34 PM

I didn’t read through all the post so I may be repeating what has already been posted but where do you think the current fuel taxes will come from on this “free energy” to power your EV? Wait for the mileage tax reporting on what ever type of vehicle you drive and the cost for charging at the on road charging stations.
Municipalities, states and the federal gov’t are already designing ways to tax your miles that you drive.
Just like tobacco tax, the government can’t do without it.

Mattedfred · 02-06-2022, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LET51

Wait for the mileage tax reporting on what ever type of vehicle you drive and the cost for charging at the on road charging stations.
Municipalities, states and the federal gov’t are already designing ways to tax your miles that you drive.

I don't live in the USA. You folks have to report your mileage to the government and pay taxes on that?

**richard5933** · 02-06-2022, 02:52 PM

The tax will look very much like how commercial vehicles are paying their fuel taxes now. The vehicle tracks miles driven in each jurisdiction and will calculate the total amount due.

My guess is that you'll know it's coming soon when states start joining together in a compact which parallels the IFTA but for non-commercial vehicles. With the on board tech already present in new vehicle implementation will be easy. ICE vehicles will continue to pay based on fuel usage, and as they are retired from service a higher percentage of the national fleet will be paying per mile. Does not mean higher cost necessarily, just a different way to assess it.

Just my guess.

LNBright · 02-06-2022, 04:25 PM

Y'all are making me want to turn my '60 Series Rover back into a daily driver... I wanna see them try to argue what my annual mileage would be...

**richard5933** · 02-06-2022, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattedfred

I don't live in the USA. You folks have to report your mileage to the government and pay taxes on that?

For commercial vehicles this has been the law for a long time. For private vehicle, generally speaking, no.

Right now we pay tax on our private vehicles during our annual registration (if your state imposes a tax on vehicles) and every time we fuel up by paying the fuel tax which is imposed on a per-gallon basis.

The argument for a mileage-based tax revolves around the growing inequity between ICE vehicles and BEVs. ICE vehicles help support roads every time they are fueled, but other than a few states which impose a slightly higher registration for BEVs there is no contribution to the fuel tax by BEVs. This inequity has some looking for a way to have drivers pay for their use of the roads regardless of the fuel type used.

I'd say that a formula incorporating vehicle weight and miles driven would be an equitable way to divvy up the costs of keeping our roads safe to drive on, but without a doubt there are others who disagree. One major impediment, in my view, is maintaining privacy if an automated system is used.

skyguyscott · 02-07-2022, 07:43 AM

While tax policy is a pretty far tangent from the scope of this thread, I would agree that everyone benefits from good roads whether they own and drive a vehicle or not. The politicians ("poly" from the word "many," and "tic" from the blood-sucking insect) will work out some scheme to pay for them and enrich themselves, no doubt.

But for those happy ICE drivers who fear BEVs, no worries. My Grandad was born in the 19th century and never learned to drive an automobile. He was a farmer who learned to drive a team of horses at a young age, and only late in life did he learn to drive a tractor, sort of. One my favorite stories about Grandpa was of the time whilst driving his tractor and quickly approaching a fence row was heard above the tractor yelling "Whoa! Whoa!"

My point being, and I'll say this as gently as possible, if you are a Grandpa, you need never concern yourself about learning to own and operate a BEV. The ICE vehicles and the supporting infrastructure will be here for the rest of your life, or the rest of your driving days at the very least.

It is possible, at some point, depending, that the cost of buying, owing and operating a BEV will become sooooo much less expensive than your ICE, the economics may overcome your stubbornness and you elect to switch based purely on the financials, giving absolutely no consideration to the vast ecological, versatility and performance benefits of such a switch. But I doubt Grandpa would've switched regardless; stubbornness is evidently considered a virtue in my own family.

(or, as I like to say, "we're not often right, sometimes wrong, but NEVER in doubt!)

waninae39 · 02-07-2022, 08:05 AM

Most Auto makers will stop selling ICE by 2035 or sooner

The number of ICE will gradually go down.
Other factor may accelerate that; taxes, support, environmental issue, functionality etc.

recall it only took 10 years for the horse and buggy to move from 99% to 1%

Mattedfred · 02-07-2022, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waninae39

Most Auto makers will stop selling ICE by 2035 or sooner

The number of ICE will gradually go down.
Other factor may accelerate that; taxes, support, environmental issue, functionality etc.

recall it only took 10 years for the horse and buggy to move from 99% to 1%

I feel that the most important factor will be China. It's market and it's manufacturers. If vehicle manufacturers are unable to compete with China then they will be doomed to fail in the global marketplace.
I cringe when I read some of the comments on forums where anyone is discussing BEVs. Some folks need to recognize that their world is quite small at that the decisions of those that live outside their parish, county, state and country will eventually affect their personal lives.

jcl · 02-07-2022, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattedfred

I feel that the most important factor will be China. It's market and it's manufacturers. If vehicle manufacturers are unable to compete with China then they will be doomed to fail in the global marketplace.
I cringe when I read some of the comments on forums where anyone is discussing BEVs. Some folks need to recognize that their world is quite small at that the decisions of those that live outside their parish, county, state and country will eventually affect their personal lives.

I agree that China will be the most important factor. But not so much its market, more its policies. China has decided to go electric. GM sells more vehicles in China than they do in the US. In China, the state owns those factories. If GM doesn't play by China's rules, they will be out of business there. And given their debt level, they would soon be out of business globally.

This is not about whether some individuals prefer ICE vehicles over battery electric vehicles. It is an existential moment for the global auto industry. Many won't make it. We just don't know which ones yet.

Ndcctrucks · 02-12-2022, 09:55 AM

It’s customary to publish full phrases and then later use acronyms.

ICE?

BEV?

skyguyscott · 02-12-2022, 10:11 AM

No worries.

BEV is short battery electric vehicle

ICE is short for internal combustion engine

Other acronyms in common usage in this forum are:
TV is not a television as you might think but tow vehicle
YMMV is short for “your mileage may vary”
IMHO is short for “in my humble opinion”

Now, you can understand when someone types,
“IMHO, a BEV TV is already cheaper to own and operate than ICE TV, and will only get cheaper but YMMV.”