New less expensive Airstream

[Denis4x4]

I checked the sub-forums here looking for info on the AS Sport and found nothing. It was my impression that the Sport was supposed to be an entry level AS. There was a special financing plan from GE. In as much as GE pulled out of the RV dealer financing business soon after the Sport was introduced, one has to wonder if the Sport was a victim of the GE pullout and the 2007 recession. Quite frankly, I suspect than millenials and genXers will look at QC in an RV in the same way they look at the quality of a Honda, Toyota, etc.

[Mach5]

Originally Posted by Andrew T

Our store sells 350 RV's a year and we have 12 service bays that never stop.

I appreciate the value of a dealership that stands behind what they sell, but I for one would prefer that those non-stop service bays were not required just to keep up with factory warranty repairs.

['55 Airlight]

Originally Posted by Denis4x4

I thought that the only aluminum travel trailer in the world was an Airstream.

That's a majority opinion on Air Forums and elsewhere. Wally Byam's great genius was marketing. Hawley Bolus had already invented the riveted aluminum airframe trailer. But Wally's great contribution (apart from moving the door from the nose of the trailer to the curbside, which as far as I'm concerned is only part of the way to where it should go) was wearing a beret and marketing the trailer. The fact Airstream's the only brand to have survived is a testament to how good he was.

I'm sold on vintage airframe trailers. There have been a lot of great designs and trailers produced. Must be a dozen or more riveted aluminum airframe trailers including the ubiquitous Airstream.

I've owned a mid-sixties Bambi (among many other vintage trailers.) The premium price for Airstream trailers was explained to me by a longtime full timer who said: You get in the club when you buy an Airstream. With apologies to Groucho, I wouldn't want to belong to a club that would have me.

Michael

[NHAir]

Approximately 4 months ago I had an opportunity to tour an FC 23D. A stunningly beautiful trailer! Armed with the knowledge of what I should look for from having read various Air Forum threads, I completed a detailed tour. I remember thinking how I would be embarrassed to have anyone see all the errors in the manufacturing I could identify. I wanted to think it was simply fit and finish issues and they could all be resolved. But upon further reflection I thought about the propane lines and the electrical systems and all the manufactured components I could not see. Would those resemble the same level of quality? I could not answer that question. Interestingly, that trailer sold one month later to a couple trading up from their Bambi.

I believe many prospective owners try their best to be informed consumers. Many may conduct their research by viewing what is on the dealer’s lot or what is shown at RV shows only. I agree there is a general lack of quality within the industry and that is very evident at RV shows, however, I reject the assumption all RVs are poor quality!

Airstream travel trailers are all hand made. That can create variation in the level of quality if quality control is not embedded in the manufacturing process. That can explain why some owners have great quality trailers and some do not. A good continuous quality control process does take time and may take money to implement. Fortunately, I do not see a financial case to be made for why AS or the dealer network should invest in better quality control. They can sell more than they can produce and their vision may extend only to the next quarterly sales figures.

It has been said Wally was a master at marketing. I believe his greatest marketing achievement was the creation of the WBCCI organization. He knew how camping, rallies, and caravans help to build life-long friendships with other campers. Those friendships are worth their weight in gold and frequently are the main benefit to owning an Airstream. He then took marketing to the next level by restricting membership to Airstream owners only. A brilliant marketing move and a way to lock in future buyers who seek to trade up, down or replace their trailer. You got to admire the man!

[switz]

What you can not see while looking at the inside of the Airstream is the countless PEX fittings that have a clamp to hold the pipe to the fitting. It is very easy to not crimp the fitting completely - a future leak. The 120Vac electrical outlets are lower in quality than cheap. The wires are just pushed into a "V" shaped opening. How much road vibration until the wires could become loose?

These two cheapness issues were/are common to both the 2014 31' Classic and our 2015 23D International Serenity. We did replace every 120Vac outlet in both trailers with commercial grade Hubbell 20 amp GFI outlets. The plumbing potential issues necessitated the acquisition of a PEX tool and fittings to be able to make repairs on the road.

An interesting wiring trick to cut costs is that Airstream puts a standard 30 amp breaker in their circuit breaker box as the main breaker. The incoming shore power wire goes to the load side of the breaker to power the bus for the other breakers. That is not the correct way to connect to a circuit breaker.

We discarded the Airstream breaker box in the 23D and put a dedicated 30 amp breaker in a separate box as the main breaker. A new sub panel was installed in the usual location under the refrigerator. To cut costs (this is a $75,000 trailer for 2016), the 23D does not have a front power inlet like the other 30 amp powered models. We installed an inlet plus a real transfer switch, not the failure prone solid state unit Airstream installs (for $5 more they could install the transfer switch with a real replaceable contactor inside). Note that Airstream puts half sized breakers in their circuit breaker boxes. Usually the air conditioner breaker (heaviest long running load) is in the middle of the row of breakers. It gets hot and trips more easily. Putting the circuit on the outside of the row allows the breaker to dissipate the heat more effectively and not trip as often.

The television is plugged into a duplex outlet that requires just a push with a screwdriver to open the closed openings on the other half of the outlet. We replaced that outlet with a switched outlet so power could be turned off unless the television is needed. It draws some power whenever 120VAc is present for the instant on feature.

The sub-woofer needs a power switch as well since it draws power from the battery all the time unless the main battery disconnect is used.

The plastic drawer and cabinet latches started breaking within a few months of ownership. We converted all of them to brass units. On the 2014 and earlier Classics, Airstream installed a 1" fluorescent light bulb fixture cross frame on the ceiling. Since the roof is arched, it slightly bent the fixture squeezing and cracking the plastic lenses over time. We got replacement lenses and gently sanded a small radius into the lenses so it was not binding in the fixture.

The list goes on..... After substantial work, and expense, we have both units up to snuff.

[rodsterinfl]

Rod, try looking at a $350K motorhome and see the same issues. We did this weekend at a local rv show. Any manufacturer, any model, it's rv industry-wide.

True, a societal issue I guess because it is more than RVs. I was disappointed. I can only say it was one trailer and one model. I went thinking "maybe a new one" with my likes addressed but, came home appreciating my older unit. I hope they can get their construction quality up and the less expensive model will certainly sell.

[Andrew T]

Airstream is doing a lot of things that are improving quality that most people don't realize. In the last few years they have spent several million dollars on computerized cutting tables that do all the interior panel cuts perfectly. They predrill holes for shelves etc. As well they now do all the cutting of aluminum sheets. This alone has made my life much easier as when materials are cut the correct shape the balance of a fix is much simpler. The new plant has about twice the light levels of year ago (very important as your workforce ages).

Beyond that they have more line training than at any time in their history. In the late 70's we were spending 3-5 days to PDI a trailer and almost rebuilding the interior. Things got dramatically better in 1981 when Jerry Letourneau took over and then quality suffered somewhat again in the late 90's early 2000's but never back to the level of the 70's. interesting Jerry made a massive leap in quality by getting rid of the quality control department and giving every person ownership of quality. PDI times went from 4 days on average to 1.5 days within 6 months.

When the Ford Plant down the road was running full tilt they were spitting out a Crown Vic every 90 seconds. If a production mistake could be made they put a robot in there. As well everyone of those cars was largely the same. Building the variety of RV sizes and layouts in one plant with those pesky humans is a much bigger challenge.

Ever more so because as a society we don't train people to work with their hands any more. The elites in education think there are no future jobs in technical work, likely because the don't understand it and don't have a clue how to teach it. However if you don't put a wrench or a rivet gun in a kids hand until he is 19 it will never really be part of him. It used to be that a farmers kids were helping fix the tractor from the time they were 5 and because there were more kids than farms there was this great work force available. However farms are becoming big corporate entities so there is not the same grass routes education of technical skills.

Against those challenges Airstream has quadrupled their workforce since 2009. I am amazed that they have been able to maintain the quality level that they have. I certainly know I am not good enough a leader to have done that. Even though mistakes will happen and things will sometimes get worse before they get better I think Airstream's volume and dedication to improving quality is giving them a competitive advantage that will be hard to duplicate.

Over the years there have been many companies that have tried to fill the gap between the boxes and Airstream. The problem is most of the people buying those really wanted an Airstream so they start asking for better chassis, larger windows, heated tanks etc, etc. As the companies add the features they gradually become very close to the price of an Airstream and if you look at resale values more expensive to own. This will be Airstream's biggest challenge as well with a new product, it will be interesting to see what they come up with.

Andrew T

[Piggy Bank]

Originally Posted by Denis4x4

I checked the sub-forums here looking for info on the AS Sport and found nothing. It was my impression that the Sport was supposed to be an entry level AS. There was a special financing plan from GE. In as much as GE pulled out of the RV dealer financing business soon after the Sport was introduced, one has to wonder if the Sport was a victim of the GE pullout and the 2007 recession. Quite frankly, I suspect than millenials and genXers will look at QC in an RV in the same way they look at the quality of a Honda, Toyota, etc.

Denis,
There is info on the Sport, but it is in the Bambi section. We love our Sport 22. Lots of windows that open(including in the bathroom), a huge bed, and great counter space in the galley kitchen.
2005 and newer - Bambi all models - Airstream Forums

[NHAir]

Hey Switz,
Wow! I truly admire the dedication to your two Airstream travel trailers. What was most impressive was your focus on safety issues. The loved ones you take camping are truly blessed. I guess when all is said and done, it is not about the vista view windows or the ultra-leather. It is the safety of our loved ones. Nice job!

[NHAir]

Andrew,

Thank you very much for your insights regarding quality initiatives at Airstream. I particularly enjoyed how you mentioned farmers. Perhaps you have a farming background and therefore a kindred spirit?

I grew up on a farm here in New England and when I am not camping, dairy cattle management is an important part of my life. I understand the importance of a job well done and obtaining input from others as I seek to improve my performance. I have always held myself to high standards and I expect it of others.

I would say to anyone within the Airstream product design, manufacture and delivery cycle, “Not Good Enough”! To anyone within the management roles at both Thor and Airstream, I would say, “Learn from those RV manufacturers who know how to deliver a high quality product and embedding those ideas into your organization”. If this request falls on deaf ears, than I say, “Shame On You”!

[field & stream]

Quote:
I would say to anyone within the Airstream product design, manufacture and delivery cycle, “Not Good Enough”! To anyone within the management roles at both Thor and Airstream, I would say, “Learn from those RV manufacturers who know how to deliver a high quality product and embedding those ideas into your organization”. If this request falls on deaf ears, than I say, “Shame On You”! __________________
Warren Parlee
2016 Oliver Legacy Elite II, Delivery Date = 6/9/16


Warren -- (known as Buzzy on Oliver forums)

I may be out of line here, but in my opinion your general observations on TT features are valuable but your harsh and repeated criticisms of Airstream products and the company on this forum seems a bit underinformed and misplaced.

You have never owned an Airstream. You only recently decided to buy an Oliver which you have not yet picked up and experienced. Yet you repeatedly give high praise to Oliver and non-stop criticism to Airstream.

Perhaps those messages would be more appreciated on your Oliver Forums account.

[Foiled Again]

Originally Posted by brain

There are small, innovative companies out there making travel trailers that are fresh, stylish, hi-tech, and appeal to a younger mindset:

The Trailer | Happier Camper
NEST Caravans
Oliver Travel Trailers | Fiberglass Travel Trailers

Change happens.

Dear BRAIN... that first link - Talk about something as cute as Boo the Dog. Like that cute little camper! And you can really take out the whole interior and haul a motorcycle or two? It's kinda like the Basecamp done better... Airstream corporate will be gnashing their teeth if it's successful. It's a deep woods boondocker's dream. Gotta go call my sister and get her drooling over this!

Paula

[NHAir]

field & stream,
I appreciate your observations. I never meant for my comments to appear harsh, but upon re-review I see where you are correct. Please accept my apology.

[rmkrum]

I agree with the comments about no longer training society to work with their hands. I know entirely too many folks who are better at hurting themselves trying to use tools than actually getting something fixed. 'Shop classes' in schools are almost non-existent nowadays. Kids are not getting to do anything with their hands other than clutch and interact with video games and computers.

It's not policy in my house, fortunately. We have a huge investment in power and hand tools, cooking equipment, and crafts like sewing and crochet. Our 4 kids know how to fix a car, cook a tasty meal, and repair clothing at a minimum. They get to explore tools of all sorts as they grow up. I just don't see how one can reasonably cope with the world without some level of manual skill, but then again I've often been accused of being a dinosaur. So be it...😄😄


Sent from my pocket Internet using Airstream Forums

[field & stream]

Originally Posted by NHAir

field & stream,
I appreciate your observations. I never meant for my comments to appear harsh, but upon re-review I see where you are correct. Please accept my apology.

Hi Warren -- There is certainly no apology needed, especially after such an impressive response to my criticism. Perhaps I owe you the apology for my comments!

We certainly share views on how to make a better trailer for the type of use we both seem to be enjoying. I hope some manufacturers are listening, and I hope someday this former New Englander will cross paths with you in the autumn woods. Keep your eye out for a Basecamp.

Best wishes.........

[NoResults]

Let me express my thoughts on this since I am the owner of a Camp-Inn teardrop trailer. These trailers are purchased factory direct.

My reason for purchasing from them was "Quality". Everything is done correctly. If I have a problem I can call the factory and talk to the owner.

I am looking to sell now after three years and am wanting a larger trailer with bathroom etc. I was hoping that Airstream would fit that bill.

I am still looking and workmanship are important to me.

Dave

[dkottum]

Although the thread has drifted to Airstream bashing over quality issues and perceptions, Andrew T. makes an important point. No matter the factory makes errors in construction, the customer should not know it if the dealer is doing the PDI work they are supposed to. The customer should receive a defect-free product. That is what Quality Assurance is in this industry.

Tiffin is another rv maker that trains their workers to build the product correctly, and expects them to do so. There is no in-process quality check behind each procedure, the product would take forever to complete and the price point would have to reflect it. Again, the dealer must do a proper PDI. Pre-Delivery Inspection, and correct any issues found. My neighbor learned this while at Tiffin, returning to the factory to correct 64 defects the dealer missed.

Sure, simple teardrop trailers, fiberglass eggs, and ancient Airstreams had fewer defects; it's because there was less to go wrong. And as Andy said, the workers came to the factory with at least the basic knowledge of lefty-loosey, righty-tighty.

If you want a good quality rv, buy a quality product that is sold by a quality dealership; they are inseparable. Or buy something really simple direct from the factory and hope for the best.

The constant bashing of the Airstream factory is, for the most part, missing the mark. Some if not many dealerships are getting away with murder on this issue.

[DavidsonOverlander]

Originally Posted by Andrew T

Ever more so because as a society we don't train people to work with their hands any more. The elites in education think there are no future jobs in technical work, likely because the don't understand it and don't have a clue how to teach it. However if you don't put a wrench or a rivet gun in a kids hand until he is 19 it will never really be part of him. It used to be that a farmers kids were helping fix the tractor from the time they were 5 and because there were more kids than farms there was this great work force available. However farms are becoming big corporate entities so there is not the same grass routes education of technical skills.

Andrew T

Originally Posted by rmkrum

I agree with the comments about no longer training society to work with their hands. I know entirely too many folks who are better at hurting themselves trying to use tools than actually getting something fixed. 'Shop classes' in schools are almost non-existent nowadays. Kids are not getting to do anything with their hands other than clutch and interact with video games and computers.

It's not policy in my house, fortunately. We have a huge investment in power and hand tools, cooking equipment, and crafts like sewing and crochet. Our 4 kids know how to fix a car, cook a tasty meal, and repair clothing at a minimum. They get to explore tools of all sorts as they grow up. I just don't see how one can reasonably cope with the world without some level of manual skill, but then again I've often been accused of being a dinosaur. So be it...😄😄

While you're both correct that many students do not get the shop class experiences that they would have in years past, in my experience it's not quite as bad as you make it sound. In our school district all high schools offer technological education courses (ranging from woodworking to auto shop to construction to machine shop to electrical to robotics to HVAC, etc.), and many students get some experience with tools in elementary school as well. In elementary schools there is certainly a smaller variety of tools than there was 20 years ago, but there's still something and at least now the girls are involved as well, unlike when I was in grade 7/8 in the early 70's. In Ontario, education in many industry sectors is offered through Specialist High Skills Majors courses (in high school) which provide a broader range of industry-related skills than did previous courses.

The opportunities are there, but many parents do not recognize the value of Technological Education and discourage (or at least don't encourage) their children from taking those courses, a huge mistake in my opinion. In some of our schools 95% of parents of grade 9 students believe that their child will attend university. I guess it's easy to think that if you're child is going to become a doctor, lawyer or stock broker they'll have enough money to pay to have anything built or fixed that they need.

[NHAir]

Hi field & stream,
I do hope our paths will cross! I have never seen a Basecamp except on a YouTube video. I love the functionality and design! I have been tracking the ones that come up for sale. They are very scarce. It is not uncommon for some campers to have multiple travel trailers. Perhaps one day I will be the proud owner of an Airstream in addition to my Ollie.
My best wishes to you as well.

[Rocinante]

A bit off topic here. Still, if quality is the chief concern for your Airstream to-be, perhaps consider an Airstream shell with custom-built interior from someone like Timeless Travel Trailers.

http://www.timelesstraveltrailers.com

Meanwhile, let's get back to the speculatin'!