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Old 04-27-2003, 09:18 PM   #1
 
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Thumbs down They don't make them like they used to

After reading about the misadventures of "dpope" and "Pahaska", concerning problems of quality on their 2003 trailers, in No Fuss Flush Leaks! I thought I could tell about our "pleasure" in being the "proud" owners of a 1990.

A bit of a summary:

dpope :
Quote:
I CAN NOT BELIEVE IT!!! ...... WHAT IS NEXT!!!.....
I think I'm going to start performing warranty work myself and charge back Airstream at my rate. At least I take pride in my workmanship...
You pay way too much for the quality your getting.

whew!!! I apologize... I just had to vent...
Pahaska:
Quote:
Join the club!
Your problem is identical to the leak that flooded my trailer.....
To add insult to injury, the tech at the dealer......
To which Chas answered:
Quote:
Sorry, but I must relate, hearing you new owners having problems makes us vintage folks feel somewhat better in regards to dealing with our aging beauties!!
Too bad we did not read that earlier. Like before we bought a 1990.

We were spoiled by the quality of our 1971 & 74.

We spent a few hours today giving that 1990 the first hard look. Our opinion (commenting only on a 1990 model):

___ ___ Airstream built a sorry piece of crap ___ ___

I had to kick Mike out of there after a while, I was tired of his endless "How can they make such garbage. Who ever made decisions about the way things were done in here should be castrated."

I know he is a little bit picky, and he is always hard to please. But, even me, I must admit that he is right.

examples: missing aluminium strips connecting 3 out of 4 cabinets (were never installed, resulting in 1/2" of opening for dirt & more to get in)
_Shower stall & kitchen/sink area finished in "lovely" contact paper. That's really classy.
_The usable floor space in the bathroom is 15" X 22", with a 33" 1/2 X 40" 1/2 shower !!!! That's 4 times bigger. We have been tracking down similar RV tub-seat, in a more realistic size of 24 X 40. Then will have to move wall. AS went the easy way (the tub-seat stands over the wheel well), but I rather have a counter next to my elbow than a wall, while brushing my teeth.
_ I have compiled a long list of absurdities (3 ceiling lights spaced: 24", then next one 56", instead of putting one half way, and make that middle light useful.).... etc..... Who designed that ?

The problem is we have been spoiled. We can only complain about some of the tambours on the 71. And the butt sag on the 74 (small detail !!!) But, at least the 71 & 74's insides are lovely. Great choice of material. The walls in the bathroom are not peeling off, the cabinets are attached solid, the finish on window frames is not falling off. And: I hope I won't have to sleep on that couch. Forgot: we'll have to replace that too, I will have to sit on this crap.

That trailer was owned by a couple who kept good records of everything, it looks like it was very well maintained. That' s at least some luck: I hate to see what the inside will look like in the year 2019 if we don't redo most of everything. [1974 is 29, 1990+29=2019]

I was fuming so much all day.. .. ... I was so happy to read this other thread about some "proud" owners of 2003 models enjoying so much the "great quality" of their latest purchase.

I feel a lot better now, thinking my 1990 may be better made than the 2003.

By the way, I don't care for answers like "well, compared to SOB, Airstream is.....blablabla...."

I am not comparing to SOB. I am comparing Airstream to Airstream.

And what I see does not make me very happy. (we are keeping it anyway.)

Chas, I hope you are enjoying your 1970's model. "They don't make them like that anymore. "
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"whew!!! I [don't] apologize... I just had to vent... "
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Old 04-28-2003, 07:12 AM   #2
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I can still find plenty of design problems in my 74, it is just easier dealing with them since I didn't drop 40 or 50 grand on it.

My latest head scratcher is the placement of the a/c and the accordion door bulkhead/room divider. On my last trip it got warm enough to use the a/c and the rear bedroom and bath were just plain hot, the rearward a/c vents blew directly into the divider! I thought about all kinds of stuff, removing the divider, losing the accordion door, moving the a/c, but finally fixed it with some duct tape and a piece of cardboard. I built a deflector to route the air between the roof and the top of the divider.

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Old 04-28-2003, 07:29 AM   #3
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It is worth noting that the concern over the space devoted to the bathroom floor vs. the shower size is a design issue, not a quality issue. It is a useful distinction, I think.

I too have dealt with plenty of both kinds of problems in my '85 Sovereign. Some certainly make you scratch your head and wonder what "they" were thinking. Or if any thinking was going on at all!

We do not see problems like those related on the "No Fuss Flush Leaks" on our older units because they were fixed decades ago. There is a fairly high probability that a good number of such problems existed when our units were new.

Mark
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Old 04-28-2003, 07:34 AM   #4
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I too have some fair quality control issues with my '03 Bambi. Not life or death issues, but I agree for the price you do tend to expect Mercedes quality and I feel that we only got Cadillac quality which is a bit hard to understand. The harder part is finding a good tech dealer nearby or making the trek to Ohio. For me the trip to Ohio isn't too harsh, but what about people out west? A good dealer is very hard to find. And there have been issues with all makes and models of A/S and SOBs. I cannot comment on ratios between the two, but I am sure the A/S has less.

I by no means say give A/S a pass on this issue, but I will say that given the SOBs I looked at before we chose to go A/S, the SOBs quality and fit and finish was far worse and had more empty feeling inside than the A/S.

In the end after all the little things get resolved (and hopefully A/S get a bit more focused on quality control), still a bad day in an Airstream still beats a great day in an SOB--IMHO.

Regards,

Eric
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Old 04-28-2003, 07:39 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chas
I can still find plenty of design problems in my 74, it is just easier dealing with them since I didn't drop 40 or 50 grand on it.

My latest head scratcher is the placement of the a/c and the accordion door bulkhead/room divider. On my last trip it got warm enough to use the a/c and the rear bedroom and bath were just plain hot, the rearward a/c vents blew directly into the divider! I thought about all kinds of stuff, removing the divider, losing the accordion door, moving the a/c, but finally fixed it with some duct tape and a piece of cardboard. I built a deflector to route the air between the roof and the top of the divider.

Chas
chas

i had the same problem, went and got a small desk fan and put it on the nightstand.

i direct it at the floor, to the front. it keeps the bedroom at least ten degrees cooler just by getting the air moving to the front.

my '92 had plenty of quality issues, mostly small annoying stuff.

nickle and dime.

john
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Old 04-28-2003, 08:10 AM   #6
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so here we all are sharing info and telling stories about our Airstreams trying to be helpful, and you see this post:

___ ___ Airstream built a sorry piece of crap ___ ___

a little bit "over the top" for the problems you describe.

I think the majority of folks here are quite happy with the product, and I see no need to bad mouth it, especially here.
Not saying all has to be positive, but why take up such a large space for complaining?

Maybe we need a "vent" forum like our local newspaper has.
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Old 04-28-2003, 08:21 AM   #7
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How about a "bitching and moaning" forum, sounds more in line with the start of this thread!!

(Sorry, tried to censor it down some but it totally lost the effect, moderator, feel free to edit)

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Old 04-28-2003, 08:39 AM   #8
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yes my point exactly. Not that we have to little Mr and Ms Smiley Face all the time, but we are here with a common enjoyment and to help promote that as well.
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Old 04-28-2003, 10:40 AM   #9
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Femuse

I frequent a couple of other RV forums and the most glaring difference between Airstreamforums.com and them is the age of the trailers and mhs questions are posted about. Early 90's SOBs draw very few questions, most are about late 90's and 200x's. 50's, 60's and 70's don't exist. I have seen the question 'buy new or used' answered many times as buy used as it takes 2 years to sort out the problems, you save a bunch of money, and someone else has the headaches. New Airstreams (not your 1990) might have some problems, but they don't include $7,000 to replace the sidewall that delaminated at 20 months. I agree that the new ones could be better, hopefully Airstream watches this site carefully as a customer satisfaction tool. I would also hope they watch their warranty repair reports, they are a very good tool for manufacturers to improve quality, and leaks as dpope and Pahaska experienced will surface as they appear to be common.

Quote:
We spent a few hours today giving that 1990 the first hard look
That is something you should have done before purchasing, all the problems you mentioned should have been evident in a precursory inspection. If it was not up to what you considered the quality of your other trailers, pass and look for a model that meets your standards. The aluminum strips are trivial and easily installed, the bed and bath are what you accepted when you signed on the line. Sounds to me like a classic case of buyer's remorse with a little empathy for problems with newer ones thrown in.

John
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Old 04-28-2003, 11:38 AM   #10
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"Early 90's SOBs draw very few questions, most are about late 90's and 200x's. 50's, 60's and 70's don't exist"

Just out of curiosity, I once ran a search on RVTRADERONLINE.COM for all travel trailers between 1970 and 1979. Almost exactly 25 percent of all units for sale were Airstream/Arogosy. Considering that Airstream made somewhere around one half of one percent of the total industry output in that period, you can see the difference in survival rates.

Even so, there is sure room for improvement.

Mark
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Old 04-28-2003, 12:42 PM   #11
 
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First: Mark, I am not arguing about Airstream bodies, and early models' interior being far superior to anything else. I am complaining about the downhill turn in quality I see from 1971 to 1990. That's different.
Quote:
missing aluminium strips connecting 3 out of 4 cabinets
I am talking about hangers for the cabinets. We did open all the cabinets while at the dealer. Yesterday, I saw that 3 were missing only because the sun was shining at the top. It was raining when we bought it (I least we could see there was no leak)

"We spent a few hours today giving that 1990 the first hard look"
Quote:
That is something you should have done before purchasing
How do you know how long we spent over there? More hours than we did yesterday. Things like "finish on window frames falling off.", we did not expect. Different finish on the 71 & 74. What did they have to change it? And, no, some things we did not see: a grey day, no light in the trailer. But, these "deffects" we were not expecting them from an AS.

Initialy, we checked very carefully the body, Mike crawled underneath, we checked the tires, checked that fridge had coils replaced,.... When we picked it up, with AC power, we checked the water pump, the lights, the AC,..... (found out the dealer had switched the aluminium bottles for new steel ones: no, I don't believe we were half asleep when we bought it.)


"j54mark"
Quote:
the shower size is a design issue..... make you scratch your head and wonder what "they" were thinking. Or if any thinking was going on at all!
Well, that's exactly my point.

"Silvertwinkie"
Quote:
...Not life or death issues... for the price you do tend to expect Mercedes quality and I feel that we only got Cadillac quality which is a bit hard to understand
"ALANSD"
Quote:
...sharing info and telling stories about our Airstreams trying to be helpful....
I think the majority of folks here are quite happy with the product, and I see no need to bad mouth it, especially here.
Not saying all has to be positive, but why take up such a large space for complaining?
Sure it's nice to hear positive things, but it's from the negative ones that I learn.

You mean we should mostly have posts like:

_ "I am so glad to hear your door closes well and you never had a water leak."
_ "I see the door in your '03 Bambi closes nice and square. Great."
_ "In my 2003 International, the weatherstrip on the door have been installed with uttermost care"
_ "my 1994 Excella 1000 34' has a great shower vent fan. Those blades will last for ever (like in a 1971)"

Quote:
New Airstreams.....might have some problems
Some people may have a different opinion on the word "some"

were you referring to this 3 pages thread ? 2003 International AS

I learned a lot more from John Irwin "Pahaska" adventures, than from most other threads in this forum.

Where, but an Airstream forum, should I talk about my gripe about AS quality????

I guess we should all stick to how rosy everything is, and make sure we don't tarnish the "polished and repolished" look of this "American icon"?.

Is it really what this Forum is about????
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Old 04-28-2003, 12:54 PM   #12
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Hey.... If you got to vent what better place than where others can share some of the same things and offer solutions.
Quality is not what it used to be and that should not be a shock to anyone. Cheaper material higher labor cost ect, ect...
You can never find all the problems until you get it home and try it on. Then it's to late and you can only hope it is not a bank breaker.........

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Old 04-28-2003, 05:24 PM   #13
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I think the compromise in quality "today" vs "40+ years ago" is evident in almost all products made today, i.e. homes, cars, appliances, furniture, clothing, etc. The common denominator is we live in a mass-produced, disposable society today, much different from when Airstreams were basically custom made to order in the early '60s & earlier.

Why should Airstreams be held to a different standard than anything else? Even Mercedes aren't what they used to be...

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Old 04-28-2003, 05:39 PM   #14
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i agree, sort of

as far as "things aren't what they used to be", take motorcycles for instance.

my '55 harley is far and away much classier than any new models. that is just my opinion.

does it run better than a new one? no!

does it drive better than a new one? no!

is easy to maintain? no!

are parts easy to find? depends how much cash you got.

would i sell it and buy a new one that has everything a modern well made motorcycle offers? NO WAY!

a good friend always says "if they were so great back then, they would still be building them that way!"

the same could be true for some aspects of airstreams.

remember, i said some!

john
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Old 04-28-2003, 06:13 PM   #15
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"... for the price you do tend to expect Mercedes quality and I feel that we only got Cadillac quality which is a bit hard to understand"

If you peruse one of the Mercedes forums, you would eventually conclude we Airstreamers do much better than that! By the way, a real common complaint there is "they don't make 'em like they used to." I know Mercedes products back to '59, and in many respects I have to say "thank goodness they don't".

Surely we are not here to do nothing but shower praise on the product - after all we have forum headings for specific sets of problems. But what we all find most usefull are "here is the problem, can someone help?", followed by an answer. Or, in the case of John Irwin (Pahaska), "here is the problem, and here is the solution."

Femuse, you have contracted quotes of mine from two different paragraphs and inadvertently altered my meaning - which I should have made more clear. While I happen to agree with you that those huge showers are a waste of good bathroom space, others will disagree. Those are design decisions and they will suit some but not others. I am sure there are many people who rue the day Airstream discontinued the rear bath, but I would hate one. Another example: I took out the oven and double bowl kitchen sink in my unit and put in a two burner stove and a single bowl sink - all for the sake of counter space. Design decisions that others would hate. But why oh why did they carpet the platform for the toilet? And that stupid, tiny bathroom sink....

But back to actual quality issues (and I ask this, Femuse, in all seriousness, not to be arguementative), as you are one of the few members here who can actually speak authoritatively about some of the different model years, is it really getting worse? It seems to me that the problems you mention pale in comparison to the tail droop problem you have experienced on one of your 70's models. I can't help but think about all those Vista View windows that fogged up. And I would trade all the problems you have mentioned with your '90 (but possibly not the ones you have not brought up yet) for the cracked, yellowed interior endcaps in my '85. You mention the "contact paper" on the shower wall. I suspect that is the same vinyl covering as on the wall of my shower. Mine is doing fine, it is my abs plastic shower pan that is in a bad way. I am certainly glad they did not make the upper portion out of abs as well. (The new Classics have a one piece shower of some sort. Anyone know if it is abs or fiberglass?).

Femuse, I have a bad feeling that you are going to see my comments as a challenge. To the contrary, I trouble to question and comment at all only because of your actual live in experience. I think that what started out as an expression of general frustration has the potential of becoming a very helpful guide to people considering a purchase.

Mark
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Old 04-28-2003, 07:32 PM   #16
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Hey, I've been quoted serveral times on the Mercedes bit and let me clear my comments a bit.

Although I agree the style, production and assembly of the older Mercedes models was far better in the past, the machines were less safe compared to today.

When I compare Mercedes quality, I simply mean how well the car is built. For many, many decades Mercedes has had a more well built mass produced vehicle to that of domestics. I can say this because our family has owned six Mercedes from the very early 70s on. We have also owned at least 9 domestic cars in the same timeframe.

Does Mercedes hit home runs all the time? Not at all. But they are charging a premium price for the product as Airstream is as well.

Now when I compare the Mercedes quality to the cost of the car, thus the expectation that if you pay more, you get more attention to some details. An automobile has thousands more moving parts than a camper, so I'd make the comparison very lightly between issues with a car and a camper.

Do I feel my A/S and Airstrems in general are better than SOBs on the road?

Without question.

Do I think that for the cost of the Airstream they could spend a bit more time on the details?

For sure.

The profit margins on Airstreams seems to be far higher than that of the SOBs and with that in mind I think they can afford to be a bit more detail minded. I cannot think of a time when I could walk into a car showroom and negotiate 17% off sticker at any time unless it was a Corvair or a Pinto... It is not hard to do this either. So you can only imagine what the profit margin actually is for Thor. Given Thor's performance of late (and I know it's not only made of Airstream), suggests that there is some fair profit on these premium campers. Not to mention the extras Thor has sent my way. RV motorclub, WBCCI membership for a year. That stuff costs money and frankly, I'd be happy to give up some of the perks like that if there was more attention to some of the smaller things like floor in the bathrooms and main door latching, etc.

I don't expect perfection. That is only a goal and as human beings next to impossible.

I would surely buy another Airstream when the time comes. My comments are simply that since owning my Airstream and talking with you all fine folks, I have noticed certian quirks about Airstreams that I feel are easily overcome issues. I by no mean suggest that Airstreams are crap. I don't feel that way one bit and I hope most of you don't either.

Regards,

Eric
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Old 04-28-2003, 07:41 PM   #17
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Old 04-28-2003, 07:42 PM   #18
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Old 04-28-2003, 07:42 PM   #19
 
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Quote:
the problems you mention pale in comparison to the tail droop problem you have experienced on one of your 70's models.
Agreed. I am (for now), looking only at the interior.


Quote:
It is worth noting that the concern over the space devoted to the bathroom floor vs. the shower size is a design issue, not a quality issue. It is a useful distinction, I think.
I too have dealt with plenty of both kinds of problems in my '85 Sovereign. Some certainly make you scratch your head and wonder what "they" were thinking. Or if any thinking was going on at all!
I did not intend to distort your words. I took what you said as a general comment about the lack of care that AS seems to show, especially when it comes to thinking about interior design. Sorry if it did not come out right.

Quote:
You mention the "contact paper" on the shower wall. I suspect that is the same vinyl covering as on the wall of my shower. Mine is doing fine...
Hard to believe is it ? .......(the vinyl in our 70's is doing fine too): they actually used contact paper in the shower !!!!!

Quote:
Femuse, I have a bad feeling that you are going to see my comments as a challenge.
Nope.

But what we will get and a few more "bitching" from our work, this afternoon.
I know, these are small problems, but a small one here, a small one there, they start to pile up.
We are replacing the steel kitchen sink by a stainless one. To replace the counter, I started to remove the stove, following the book direction - only 2 steps: 4 screws & gas line. OK so far. Hoops, they forgot to mention the 2 electric wires. One more small detail !!!

We spent over one hour removing the spice rack ...... only 4 screws !!!!!
I removed 2, no problem. The 2 others are 1" longer than necessary. With a good reason: when installing the further one, they buggered the head. No way to get it out from the top. Mike had to crawl by the small compartment behind the stove, just room for his arm, no light....... using pliers then vice grips, turning that screw from underneath first. (That's why they made it so long.....) To finish the job, he ended up whacking several fingers, a nasty mark on one. You see, he has some experience in using the right tool for the job: he has been a mechanic & then a woodworker for years. Used to smashed fingers.
But, removing a 15 LBs spice rack in over 1 hour..... because AS was able to screw only 3 out of 4 screws correctly.... that's slightly ennoying .

I know, it's small stuff..... but I wonder: what are we going to discover next ???????

Sorry for bitching again. (Now, we can teach people how to remove the spice rack. With pictures)
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Old 04-28-2003, 07:53 PM   #20
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I just have to but in with my thoughts. We really love our 02 Bambi & feel fortunate to finally have one we can call our own. We have had some minor problems, none outstanding, the most problems we have had is with the dealers & A/S itself. The owners manual is not correct with several items & I'm not real sure that I trust the dealer's expertise with the A/S line. Neither one ( dealer & A/S ) when talking to them give me a sense that they are totally sure of what they are saying. All in all we'd buy that little Bambi again, without a doubt. BTW, Silvertwinkle, have you had any peeling of your bumper railings? We are in the process of trying to get approval to have ours replaced, as both the upper & lower have a problem.
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