New Airstream ordered - some lessons learned and questions

[mbronto]

We have been researching RVs and settled on a 2022 Airstream FC 30 FB Bunk. The dealer network we worked with initially was Airstream Adventures, which I see is slowly gobbling up other dealers (most recently in Washington) and expanding in the West. Airstreams are obviously in short supply so we were told no one is discounting them, even though 2 years ago you could buy one for 15-20% off MSRP pretty easily.

So when Airstream Adventures said they only offer 2.5% off the 2022 planned price increase, it seemed to be the best we were going to do. But I read posts on this forum and talked to some people which made me check for myself. I wrote emails and called a few different dealers. ALL Airstream Adventures dealers were on the same page - they have a universal stance of no discounts beyond 2.5%. So I only talked to other dealers. I did find a good offer from a dealer selling it for about 13% off MSRP. I took that number and shopped it around at other dealers who were willing to match it without hardly any hesitation. I ended up going with a dealer close to me who is also a 5-Rivet Exclusive Airstream dealer, so I don't think I can go wrong. I did call Airstream Adventures back with that firm written offer in hand and despite all that, they simply would not budge. Nothing! They wouldn't even consider 3% off

So I am mostly posting this to let those who are interested know - yes, indeed YOU CAN buy a new 2022 Airstream significantly under MSRP and from a reputable exclusive Airstream dealer in September 2021. It just takes a little work.

Now some other details: I had one dealer estimate a delivery date of 6 months, others 9-11 months, and a 3rd assured me it would come by THIS December or January. Yes, that's what they said. I can't imagine how that could be, but he was the manager of the dealership (an exclusive Airstream dealership) and he said that was a realistic timeline.

Well, whatever it is, it is. I have my order in, my deposit has been paid and now we wait. While I wait, I do have some questions for those that have advice. I know this gets talked about a lot but it would be great to get fresh feedback.

1. I have a tow vehicle with just a receiver and no tow hitch or anything. Is there a model/brand of a tow hitch and anti-sway bar that most everyone agrees is the way to go for a top-of-the-line towing experience? Airstream offers something they install themselves but I want to hear what folks think is the very best.

2. I did not go with the factory solar package. The dealer said he could install something twice as powerful (over 400W) for just a little more. There are also a lot of after market options. What is the consensus on solar? Is there a brand or package that is the go-to around here?

Thanks very much for everyone's contributions and I look forward to updating you and contributing as well in the future.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Whatever the dealer is installing for solar, it's *very* doubtful it is as good as what the factory is putting on these days. You see a *lot* of dealers putting on sub-standard gear and then doing a poor job of installing it. I'd go back and switch to factory solar. If nothing else, you get the 3 year warranty nationwide that way.

On your tow vehicle, the first question is: Can it safely tow your trailer after the trailer is loaded up / ready for camping? The 30' FC may well be up around 1,000 pounds tongue weight. This is a lot for some TV's to handle.

The "5 Rivet" designation really means very little in terms of an AS dealer. The only obvious thing they have done is to meet sales quotas. Their parts and service departments may still be a disaster. Do some research before you have them do much on your trailer.

No, this isn't a knock on your dealer. I have no idea who you finally decided on. It's only a caution that there are a lot of "not so great" dealers out there.

Fun !!

Bob

[mbronto]

Excellent points and thank you. My TV is a F250 7.3L Gas which has a 2,100 lb tongue weight capacity and can tow 14,700lbs. I think I'm ok there, I just need to select a hitch and anti-sway system.

As for dealers, I would make the distinction more between exclusive AS dealers vs any other deal that happens to have "5-Rivets". So your point is well taken. I guess I don't care that much anyways because I intend to do warranty service at my local Airstream Adventures anyways.

As for solar, I'm not sure yet what the factory installed 180W is going to give me - no experience with that whatsoever. To boondock with 2 A/Cs running, is there any solar system that can help out with that?

[s1000pre]

Your going to love the 30bunk. Our family traded out 2020 Int. 25FB for the 2021 30Bunk back in February. We love the floor plan, works wonders for our family of four.

[mikeinca]

Originally Posted by mbronto

To boondock with 2 A/Cs running, is there any solar system that can help out with that?

A very, very expensive system could, unless you plan to install it yourself in which case it will just be very expensive.

I have 400Ah of lithium batteries, almost 600 total watts of solar (rooftop and portable) and a Victron 3000 watt inverter. I can run the smaller 13500 BTU AC unit for maybe 90 minutes if nothing else is pulling a load; running 2 would be pretty much out of the question.

I can see why you might want more than the 180 watts of rooftop solar that's available in the factory package but you may need to scale back your expectations for running both AC's unless you are prepared for a major $$ expenditure.

[jondrew55]

We considered the 30’ bunk and if one had been around when we scanned the local classified we might have gotten one. We really like out 25’ GT with a single 12 year old (and an occasional friend) reconfiguring the bed at night really is not a huge deal.

You asked about hitches. That’s a pretty hot subject. You’ll basically be choosing between standard weight distributing/anti sway hitches like the Blue Ox or the ProPride/Hensley hitches. The latter are pricy but most people who use them strongly recommend them. Do a google/YouTube search on them.

Good luck. You’ll love it!

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by mbronto

.....

As for solar, I'm not sure yet what the factory installed 180W is going to give me - no experience with that whatsoever. To boondock with 2 A/Cs running, is there any solar system that can help out with that?

Hi

Solar isn't going to run two (or one) A/C with 180W or with 400W. It takes to much power. A/C when off grid means running a generator. As noted above, if you go to a massive lithium battery setup *and* a giant solar install *and* get a lot of sun all the time ... you might run one.

The more significant issue is your fridge. Most '22 models are coming with 12V powered "compressor" based fridges. Without any solar and just stock batteries, you will not be off grid for long. Five days with some "margin" means an upgrade past 180W and replacing the lead acid batteries with lithium's.

The "typical" AS target for off grid appears to be about 2 days on the stock trailer. You might get more on some models, but there are a number of examples ( the '17 Classic 30' is one) that struggle to get past that.

Solar is a fine thing while the sun is out and you have a clear view of the sky. Park in a campsite with a lot of shade and solar output goes down. Have a couple days of clouds ( ... smoke ..) and solar output goes down. Head over to this or that part of the country / go out in the winter ... same thing.

The common wisdom is that you would like to have enough battery to run the important stuff for 24 hours without solar. Ideally you would like to recover that charge *and* run the important stuff over the next 24 hours. Hitting those goals is *not* easy on a trailer that pulls > 4A off 12V all the time.

Also consider that you *will* want to live in the trailer. Things like fans / lights / water pump all will get used. In a normal situation, you want to cover that power as well.

Bob

[Vagabonds_2]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Whatever the dealer is installing for solar, it's *very* doubtful it is as good as what the factory is putting on these days. You see a *lot* of dealers putting on sub-standard gear and then doing a poor job of installing it. I'd go back and switch to factory solar. If nothing else, you get the 3 year warranty nationwide that way.

On your tow vehicle, the first question is: Can it safely tow your trailer after the trailer is loaded up / ready for camping? The 30' FC may well be up around 1,000 pounds tongue weight. This is a lot for some TV's to handle.

The "5 Rivet" designation really means very little in terms of an AS dealer. The only obvious thing they have done is to meet sales quotas. Their parts and service departments may still be a disaster. Do some research before you have them do much on your trailer.

No, this isn't a knock on your dealer. I have no idea who you finally decided on. It's only a caution that there are a lot of "not so great" dealers out there.

Fun !!

Bob

Disagree Uncle Bob, believe a 5-Rivet Dealer also has service technicians that have been through a service training program, also they have to do reasonably well on customer surveys. Dealers can lose their 5-Rivet if customers fail to complete service surveys. Training modules have to be viewed on the computer--from what I understand.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by Vagabonds_2

Disagree Uncle Bob, believe a 5-Rivet Dealer also has service technicians that have been through a service training program, also they have to do reasonably well on customer surveys. Dealers can lose their 5-Rivet if customers fail to complete service surveys. Training modules have to be viewed on the computer--from what I understand.

Hi

I've chatted with a number of tech's at various dealers. I have yet to run into one who has anything positive to say about training direct from Airstream.

From visiting a number of dealers, there are many with "5 Rivet" signs up that are a total disaster. They don't know what parts are or are not in stock. They don't deal with phone calls properly. Their repair folks do more harm than good trying to fix things .... buyer beware !!!

Bob

[Al and Missy]

Originally Posted by mbronto

...


As for solar, I'm not sure yet what the factory installed 180W is going to give me - no experience with that whatsoever. To boondock with 2 A/Cs running, is there any solar system that can help out with that?

A 13,500 BTU air conditioner will draw around 15 amps at 120 volts when running, but needs maybe twice that capacity available to start up unless an EasyStart is installed. The running load is 1800 watts. Since the thermal properties of Airstreams are not that great, the AC would run most of the time in hot environments. A solar system would need to put out substantially more than that in order to allow the battery system to store energy for nighttime use, cloudy days, etc. My take is that it is impractical to run AC for more than an hour or so from a solar/battery/inverter setup, assuming an inverter and battery bank could supply the needed startup current.



Just my opinion, YMMV.

[Acheron2010]

If it was me, I would go to a reputable after-market solar installer, like Airstream Nuts n Bolts in Alabama. Dennis is an expert, knows the latest and greatest out there, and can tailor a system to meet your needs. For hitches, the dealer ought to install and adjust your setup - Equalizer works for me, but talk to owners of the FC30.

[mbronto]

Excellent, thanks. It sounds like if I am boondocking for 2-3 nights and I don't want to worry about things, it's best to just get a generator? I was looking at 5th wheel RVs that have a special cabinet up front for one. When I asked the AS dealer about that, he shrugged and said there's no dedicated space for one in an AS and to just stick it in my pickup truck and run a wire? Does that sound right? Then there's the problem of theft, noise, etc. What size generator would I need to run both A/Cs, and everything else in the rig, smoothly for a few days? I'm thinking forget solar and just invest in a really good generator since most of the time I'm connected. This is just for 2-3 nights of boondocking.

[Ephraim]

Originally Posted by Vagabonds_2

Disagree Uncle Bob, believe a 5-Rivet Dealer also has service technicians that have been through a service training program, also they have to do reasonably well on customer surveys. Dealers can lose their 5-Rivet if customers fail to complete service surveys. Training modules have to be viewed on the computer--from what I understand.

I've had my classic into the local "5-Star" dealer multiple times for warranty work. I have never been asked to complete a survey and EVERY time was a disaster. I eventually got what I needed, but the road to get there was not pretty. I doubt that I'll ever visit there again for service. The sales guy was tops though.

[Hans627]

Originally Posted by mbronto

Excellent, thanks. It sounds like if I am boondocking for 2-3 nights and I don't want to worry about things, it's best to just get a generator? I was looking at 5th wheel RVs that have a special cabinet up front for one. When I asked the AS dealer about that, he shrugged and said there's no dedicated space for one in an AS and to just stick it in my pickup truck and run a wire? Does that sound right? Then there's the problem of theft, noise, etc. What size generator would I need to run both A/Cs, and everything else in the rig, smoothly for a few days? I'm thinking forget solar and just invest in a really good generator since most of the time I'm connected. This is just for 2-3 nights of boondocking.

https://airkrafters.com/
I saw these guys at the International Rally this year. They offer an on-board generator. I don't know the specs but might be worth investigating.

I do not have solar on my GT. I have lithium batteries and charge while driving from one spot to another via a DC-DC charger. For those rare occasions when I'm at a place where I need to recharge the batteries or run the A/C I use a generator. It works for me as I only boondocks for several days at a time and only occasionally.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by mbronto

Excellent, thanks. It sounds like if I am boondocking for 2-3 nights and I don't want to worry about things, it's best to just get a generator? I was looking at 5th wheel RVs that have a special cabinet up front for one. When I asked the AS dealer about that, he shrugged and said there's no dedicated space for one in an AS and to just stick it in my pickup truck and run a wire? Does that sound right? Then there's the problem of theft, noise, etc. What size generator would I need to run both A/Cs, and everything else in the rig, smoothly for a few days? I'm thinking forget solar and just invest in a really good generator since most of the time I'm connected. This is just for 2-3 nights of boondocking.

Hi

Your A/C units by themselves will pull about 16A each. Tack on the fans on high and a little of this or that ... you are up to maybe 18A on each leg of your 50A 240V circuit. ( that supplies 100A at 120V). The "minimum" generator for two A/C's is going to be around 36A x 120 V= 4,300W while they are running. Startup can double that number.

Since *only* running the A/C is a bit rare, you would allow for things like the converter charger and maybe the fridge to be on at the same time. This gets you up around 7KW for a "practical" generator. That's going to be a 200 to 400 pound monster machine that will not fit under a cover on a pickup. You would need a cap instead.

Simple answer: don't go camping where you need to run two A/C's. You are mobile, you can pick your location. Up in North Georgia it's been fine with one A/C for the last three weeks.

Next gotcha is that generators run through more than a bit of fuel when they are big and high power. ( or even when they are pretty small). You very much do not want to fit another 50 gallons of fuel into your already crowded tow vehicle.

The magic "onboard" generator the folks talk about mounts in place of your spare tire. It's a 2.6KW propane fired unit. No solid info yet about just how they want you to deal with the spare tire once the generator is under there. There's space, but not a lot of it.....

Again, finding a location that will let you run the generator is not all that easy. Solar you can run anywhere. When you do find a place that allows generators, you will spend a lot of time listening to your neighbors make a racket. These trailers are not ideal for soundproofing ....

Bob

[mikeinca]

Originally Posted by Al and Missy

A 13,500 BTU air conditioner will draw around 15 amps at 120 volts when running, but needs maybe twice that capacity available to start up unless an EasyStart is installed. The running load is 1800 watts. Since the thermal properties of Airstreams are not that great, the AC would run most of the time in hot environments. A solar system would need to put out substantially more than that in order to allow the battery system to store energy for nighttime use, cloudy days, etc. My take is that it is impractical to run AC for more than an hour or so from a solar/battery/inverter setup, assuming an inverter and battery bank could supply the needed startup current.

Good points. I should have pointed out in my earlier post that my AC is equipped with an Easy Start. Also, about the only time we run the AC off off our battery string is when we stop for 1/2 an hour for lunch at a rest stop or similar to cool a hot trailer and I know we'll be getting plenty of sun on the rest of the trip.

My 90 minute estimate for theoretical total run time is based on the power usage for 1/2 hour. Running AC off batteries for extended periods makes little sense unless one has a lot more solar and battery capacity than I have.

[jncd2000]

I have worked with Airkrafters and though they haven't yet done the work on our Classic 33FB, I was impressed with Sean and his follow through and honesty. We are going to have the 2500 generator installed underneath the Classic. It requires a 3" Dexter Lift as well as somewhere to relocate the spare. Sean is working on a fix for that with a manufacturer who can place it elsewhere under the AS. Otherwise, it can go in the truck bed.
To answer the question about generator or solar, my understanding after looking at this is that the size of generator that would take care of two air conditioner units and other power needs would be about 300 pounds. Not great. And big. There is a fix that happens by mounting one where the LP is on the tongue, but that means that the LP has to be splayed out and you don't have it covered anymore. Additionally, it won't work with a ProPride hitch.
So, to me, the best solution is to do a combo of the 2500 generator, which is quieter and not a huge thing along with solar/lithium. That seems to be the magic combo.
Good luck!

[KelloggKid]

Originally Posted by mbronto

We have been researching RVs and settled on a 2022 Airstream FC 30 FB Bunk. The dealer network we worked with initially was Airstream Adventures, which I see is slowly gobbling up other dealers (most recently in Washington) and expanding in the West.

Unfortunately one of the dealers that they gobbled up is Airstream of Spokane (Wa). While I'm happy for Nick and Karin (the previous owners) I am sad to see this wonderful dealership change from the reliable, fair and friendly small dealership that we have come to love.

This means two things:

1) All of the favorable comments I've made in the past regarding Airstream of Spokane are no longer applicable.
2) We now have nowhere within a reasonable distance to take our Airstream for service and if we are ever in the market to purchase another Airstream we would probably have to go all the way to the east coast.

[BillFurst]

Ft Myers RV will do 10% off Airstreams and a little more if you like to haggle

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by jncd2000

I have worked with Airkrafters and though they haven't yet done the work on our Classic 33FB, I was impressed with Sean and his follow through and honesty. We are going to have the 2500 generator installed underneath the Classic. It requires a 3" Dexter Lift as well as somewhere to relocate the spare. Sean is working on a fix for that with a manufacturer who can place it elsewhere under the AS. Otherwise, it can go in the truck bed.
To answer the question about generator or solar, my understanding after looking at this is that the size of generator that would take care of two air conditioner units and other power needs would be about 300 pounds. Not great. And big. There is a fix that happens by mounting one where the LP is on the tongue, but that means that the LP has to be splayed out and you don't have it covered anymore. Additionally, it won't work with a ProPride hitch.
So, to me, the best solution is to do a combo of the 2500 generator, which is quieter and not a huge thing along with solar/lithium. That seems to be the magic combo.
Good luck!

Hi

According to:

https://airkrafters.com/product/jenrak/

The generator being used is an Onan QG2500i

Full specs are here:

https://www.cummins.com/generators/onan-qg-2800i

and here:

https://powersuite.cummins.com/sites...lic/S-6505.pdf

Generator weighs 113 pounds without a mounting bracket to attach it to the trailer. Generator running on LP will put out 20.5A at 500' altitude and 77F. Rated output drops by 3.5% for every 1,000 feet altitude. It also drops by 1% for every 10F.

It's going to be hot under the trailer running that generator so you may hit the max operating temperature of 120F ... who knows.

If you are up at Vail boon docking, you will loose 35% of the output based on altitude. That's 840W and you now are at 1560 W or 13A. Hopefully you will not need any A/C when you are up there ...

Bottom line, 20A is enough to run *one* A/C. It's not even close in terms of running two. That's at sea level.

There *is* a lot of debate over how conservative some of these ratings are. There are also a lot of posts from folks with generators that run one A/C fine down in the lowlands and get in trouble as they head into the mountains.

Is this somehow a bad generator? No it is a durable / well respected unit. However it's not a monster machine. It's in the same general category as the Honda 2200i and some others. It will run one A/C with a soft start.

If the tradeoff is putting a big / heavy / bulky spare in the back of the truck vs a smaller / lighter 2200i .... I see a lot of advantage to sticking with the 2200 ... Since we don't *know* what the spare tire "solution" is yet, there really isn't a way to judge the whole package.

Another thing to consider: There are routine maintains tasks you will need to perform on the generator (oil changes etc ...). There also are reset buttons and the like on the generator. With some installs, folks simply run the vehicle over to the local Onan shop and let them deal with it. Given the issues with jacking up an AS trailer, some get worried about going here or there.

Truth in lending: So why have I dug into this generator so deeply? There's one on the AS Interstate X that comes in at the end of the month. It's down under the van. Access to it is "interesting" to say the least. AS has been putting them on vans for years. In the case of a van, the answer is "you don't get a spare tire". (Yes, aluminum wheels on a dually get into the act so it's not entirely generator related).

Bob