Bumper Bike Rack as part of rear frame upgrade

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by foobar

Torklift makes a receiver/hitch that is designed specifically for airstream trailers.

https://torkliftcentral.com/airstrea...ry-hitch-x8000

You drill 4 holes in total in the skid plates under left/right frames under the bumper (2 holes in each skid plates), then bolt the torklift hitch to the skid plates.

Easy-peasy

I plan to purchase and install one of these. I will buy a lightweight bike rack to place in the receiver and will place two ultra-light mountain bikes on the rack. Hitch tighteners (or equivalent) will be used to ensure that the rack does not rattle and bounce around in the receiver.

I don't believe there will be any perceivable impact to trailer handling or stability if I properly balance the loads in the trailer and keep the tongue weight at an acceptable level vs the total weight of the trailer (unfortunately, I too am an engineer and understand statics and dynamics).

As to the risk of frame distortion or frame to shell separation? I accept that risk and will make any necessary repairs/strengthening efforts if/when it occurs. I will monitor that area closely as time passes.

That is exactly how I have been installing my Bike carrying receiver on three different Airstreams since 2012.
No problem whatsoever and I have used conventional bike racks mostly a Sari.
Having the skills I fabricated the receiver myself using high strength lightweight tubing .

[foobar]

Originally Posted by franklyfrank

That is exactly how I have been installing my Bike carrying receiver on three different Airstreams since 2012.
No problem whatsoever and I have used conventional bike racks mostly a Sari.
Having the skills I fabricated the receiver myself using high strength lightweight tubing .

Franklyfrank, I'm with you buddy.

Do I believe it is possible to F-up an airstream by putting too much static and dynamic loads on an Airstream? Yes. It's possible. Is it likely if one takes reasonable care to keep loads reasonable? No, it's not likely. And I define reasonable loads as a regular bike rack that is securely fastened (stinger isn't loose in the receiver while the bikes are held in place firmly and don't move around much) and up to 2 adult pedal powered bicycles and perhaps 2 kids bikes.

Putting two 80lb e-bikes on the back, or a Harley Davidson, or a 150lb generator, etc is "not" a reasonable load

I envy your fabrication skills/experience. If I had the experience, I would rather do this modification myself so I could ensure it's done well and uses lighter, thinner higher grades of steel instead of whatever is cheap and available.

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by foobar

Franklyfrank, I'm with you buddy.

Do I believe it is possible to F-up an airstream by putting too much static and dynamic loads on an Airstream? Yes. It's possible. Is it likely if one takes reasonable care to keep loads reasonable? No, it's not likely. And I define reasonable loads as a regular bike rack that is securely fastened (stinger isn't loose in the receiver while the bikes are held in place firmly and don't move around much) and up to 2 adult pedal powered bicycles and perhaps 2 kids bikes.

Putting two 80lb e-bikes on the back, or a Harley Davidson, or a 150lb generator, etc is "not" a reasonable load

I envy your fabrication skills/experience. If I had the experience, I would rather do this modification myself so I could ensure it's done well and uses lighter, thinner higher grades of steel instead of whatever is cheap and available.

I apprenticed as a mold maker in my youth in Austria.
Learned all the welding and machining skills at age 16.
This bike rack issue has been beaten to death over the years on the forum.
When it all said and done the single most important sway prevention device is the driver .
Common sense good driving skills and understanding the minutia of trailering in its entirety is the most important.
Btw. I did not like the looks of the Fiama rack, it looks like a clothesline so I decided to make my own.

[foobar]

Originally Posted by franklyfrank

I apprenticed as a mold maker in my youth in Austria.
Learned all the welding and machining skills at age 16.
This bike rack issue has been beaten to death over the years on the forum.
When it all said and done the single most important sway prevention device is the driver .
Common sense good driving skills and understanding the minutia of trailering in its entirety is the most important.
Btw. I did not like the looks of the Fiama rack, it looks like a clothesline so I decided to make my own.

Well said. And I agree with you regarding the aesthetics of the Fiama rack. Not a fan ...

[dblatner]

I would like to thank everyone for their opinions on the bumper mounts. I was about to order a Torklift receiver mount and get me a Kuat NV 2.0. I am not going to now. I can give my 2 cents. If you are going to carry so much crap with you camping why didn't you buy a toy hauler? Just kidding. Away from the frame mounting for a second. A few years back we rented a house on a lake and we took our boat. I researched the speed of the tires on my trailer and decided because it was a hot summer I would not exceed 60 MPH. I drove 55 most of the way. A few day in at the lake I was discussing how long it took because we had to drive so slow. A friend of a friend proceeded to tell me I was stupid and he pulls his work trailer 80 MPH fully loaded down with no problem. I few weeks later I received a photo of a blown out tire and damage to his trailer. I say this to let let people know that its not like you are going to put your bikes on the bumper and your camper is going to fall apart right then. You could put 100K miles on the camper with no problem. Its that 101K mile when it fails and your remember this post while stroking the $$$ check for the repair. I could have pulled my trailer 80 MPH to the lake but what damage would it cause later.

[ricjones]

The two things I have puzzled over with my 5 Airstreams, yes we are in the cult are the bike rack and keyless entry. I have given up on keyless entry.

I privately contacted two people who have installed the Tork frame hitch on Airstreams and a receiver bike rack and have been using them for 2+ years each. Both report no problems. No sway, no frame separation.

I also talked to a person who owns an Airstream dealership and has lots of experience and he said hanging stuff off the back is not a good idea.

I went ahead and installed it understanding the risks and will watch for problems. I hope my brand new 2022 Airstream is built better than ones from earlier times.

One thing I have noticed that might help people on the fence is that the Torkhitch is super super heavy duty. And I got a 1UP rack also super super heavy duty. The part that is interesting is that between the hitch and the rack, bouncing is being absorbed by the assembly - the sheer mass seems to be absorbing the shock BEFORE it gets to the frame.

Another thing I noticed is that all the frame separation photos I have seen are from OLD OLD Airstreams. I would be interested to see a real world example of frame separation on a late model Airstream CAUSED by a bike rack.

Last, I saw someone recently in my town with a Flamma rack and two of the screws were broken. Seems like it works until it doesn't.

Always looking for more real world rather than conjecture data on these things. And if anyone know how to install keyless entry, I would appreciate any info. I must be searching wrong on the forum.

[Pete B55]

One point that I notice is missing in any discussion about rear bike racks or any cargo placed at the rear is the huge difference between each trailer length.

I have a 2017 30 foot classic and my rear bumper is 11’ 6” behind the rear axle. On a 16’ Spirt the bumper is 4’ behind the single axle. There is absolutely no comparison between the frame forces impact of a bike rack (or any added weight) on the back of the sport vs a 30 foot trailer - and it varies significantly in between based on what particular trailer you talk about. A bike rack with a particular set of bikes may work on one length trailer and damage another.

To help visualize this, look at your tow vehicle and imagine putting a bike rack about 12 feet behind your rear axle - and then driving down the road. The levered forces are enormous.

I did look at putting a bike rack on our trailer but didn’t- and still had frame separation. I now carry a lot less weight behind the rear axle.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by ricjones

The two things I have puzzled over with my 5 Airstreams, yes we are in the cult are the bike rack and keyless entry. I have given up on keyless entry.

I privately contacted two people who have installed the Tork frame hitch on Airstreams and a receiver bike rack and have been using them for 2+ years each. Both report no problems. No sway, no frame separation.

I also talked to a person who owns an Airstream dealership and has lots of experience and he said hanging stuff off the back is not a good idea.

I went ahead and installed it understanding the risks and will watch for problems. I hope my brand new 2022 Airstream is built better than ones from earlier times.

One thing I have noticed that might help people on the fence is that the Torkhitch is super super heavy duty. And I got a 1UP rack also super super heavy duty. The part that is interesting is that between the hitch and the rack, bouncing is being absorbed by the assembly - the sheer mass seems to be absorbing the shock BEFORE it gets to the frame.

Another thing I noticed is that all the frame separation photos I have seen are from OLD OLD Airstreams. I would be interested to see a real world example of frame separation on a late model Airstream CAUSED by a bike rack.

Last, I saw someone recently in my town with a Flamma rack and two of the screws were broken. Seems like it works until it doesn't.

Always looking for more real world rather than conjecture data on these things. And if anyone know how to install keyless entry, I would appreciate any info. I must be searching wrong on the forum.

I have had 3 Fiama bike racks on our AS's over the past 15 years and never had an issue with broken screws. I have seen they sell SS screw replacements if your concerned, but I have not had an issue and I did carry 2 Treck 30lb bikes. I just replaced my tire rack to hold one of my RAD bikes with the 4" wide mountain tires, at 51lbs total weight- Fiama rack holds 70lbs. I will carry the other Rad inside or in the bed of my F250.

I have watched/seen the hitch type racks with varying lengths from the bumper, and varying sway with the bikes attached while driving down the road...more sway than I want. Fiama has no sway; period.

[bobzdar]

IIRC Aistream says the rear bumper can hold 100lbs. The Fiamma rack is 22lbs with a 77lb capacity for 99lbs total. I'm positive that's no accident. Now I'm sure the rear bumper can hold more than 100lbs, but how much more nobody knows as airstream has only said it can hold 100lbs safely (and the fiamma rack does not attach to the bumper at all, that's the weight capacity for the frame behind the rear shell). That could mean they've only tested up to 100lbs and didn't think to test any higher, or it could mean they put 150lbs on there, went down a bumpy road and it had issues. While nobody (except maybe airstream) knows what the limit actually is, I do see putting 2-3x that on there could cause structural issues.

I'm not one of the "need a 3/4 ton pickup to tow a 6000lbs trailer" brigade, but I try to make sure I'm not exceeding any of the manufacturer stated limits on gvwr, gawr or gcwr as I don't want anything to break. For that reason, I just went with the Fiamma rack. I looked at the torklift, and while it looks sturdy, it doesn't help out the frame of the a/s at all which is what is bearing the weight, so didn't feel like it was a good idea based on the 100lbs limit.

Fwiw, the '67 overlander I had had a ball mount welded on the back bumper - not a reciever, so not intended to hold a bike carrier or something, but a ball hitch complete with chain rings. It did not have rear end separation, so I don't know if the thing was ever used, but I kind of chuckled at it....

[Aironius]

OK, this has me curious. My Bambi has a receiver hitch and came to me with a home-made spare tire carrier inserted. I think the PO may have fabbed the hitch. He was a welder. I have been planning to use it for our 2-bike carrier. So I think I need to inspect it and see just how sturdy it is or isn't...

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by ricjones

The two things I have puzzled over with my 5 Airstreams, yes we are in the cult are the bike rack and keyless entry. I have given up on keyless entry.

I privately contacted two people who have installed the Tork frame hitch on Airstreams and a receiver bike rack and have been using them for 2+ years each. Both report no problems. No sway, no frame separation.

I also talked to a person who owns an Airstream dealership and has lots of experience and he said hanging stuff off the back is not a good idea.

I went ahead and installed it understanding the risks and will watch for problems. I hope my brand new 2022 Airstream is built better than ones from earlier times.

One thing I have noticed that might help people on the fence is that the Torkhitch is super super heavy duty. And I got a 1UP rack also super super heavy duty. The part that is interesting is that between the hitch and the rack, bouncing is being absorbed by the assembly - the sheer mass seems to be absorbing the shock BEFORE it gets to the frame.

Another thing I noticed is that all the frame separation photos I have seen are from OLD OLD Airstreams. I would be interested to see a real world example of frame separation on a late model Airstream CAUSED by a bike rack.

Last, I saw someone recently in my town with a Flamma rack and two of the screws were broken. Seems like it works until it doesn't.

Always looking for more real world rather than conjecture data on these things. And if anyone know how to install keyless entry, I would appreciate any info. I must be searching wrong on the forum.

Attaching anything to the flimsy rear bumper of an Airstream is a bad Idea.
I have fabricated a receiver out of light weight high strength steel which I bolted to the Frame about the same place where the Fiamma rack is bolted.
Initially I used a Saris bike rack however now that we carry 2 E bikes I installed the Hollywood E bike Rack.
Total weight of the two e bikes without batteries is 100lbs. Hollywood Bike Rack and Receiver are 80 LBS total 180 Lbs.
I fabricated the receiver for our first Airstream in 2012 and moved it to the subsequent two Airstreams a 30' International and the current one a 2017 30' Classic.
In close to 13 years of carrying bikes on the back of 3 different airstreams I haven't had any issues whatsoever.
I normally cruise at 70 MPH weather and traffic allowing been all over the Country in all kinds of conditions and I am here to tell you about it.
I never considered the Fiamma bike rack because it looks like a clothes drying rack and did not want anything screwed into the flimsy aluminum body.
While I truly enjoy the forums I have found that frequently there is unfounded theories floated out there that seem to take on a life of their own.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by franklyfrank

Attaching anything to the flimsy rear bumper of an Airstream is a bad Idea.
I have fabricated a receiver out of light weight high strength steel which I bolted to the Frame about the same place where the Fiamma rack is bolted.
Initially I used a Saris bike rack however now that we carry 2 E bikes I installed the Hollywood E bike Rack.
Total weight of the two e bikes without batteries is 100lbs. Hollywood Bike Rack and Receiver are 80 LBS total 180 Lbs.
I fabricated the receiver for our first Airstream in 2012 and moved it to the subsequent two Airstreams a 30' International and the current one a 2017 30' Classic.
In close to 13 years of carrying bikes on the back of 3 different airstreams I haven't had any issues whatsoever.
I normally cruise at 70 MPH weather and traffic allowing been all over the Country in all kinds of conditions and I am here to tell you about it.
I never considered the Fiamma bike rack because it looks like a clothes drying rack and did not want anything screwed into the flimsy aluminum body.
While I truly enjoy the forums I have found that frequently there is unfounded theories floated out there that seem to take on a life of their own.

Wait a minute...you mean your towing around that Airstream with the "flimsy aluminum body" using a homemade fabricated receiver with Hollywood E bike rack in the receiver at 70mph, because the Fiama looks like a clothes drying rack, and your concerned about screwing into the Airstream frame? Love to see the "no wobble" video pictures with 2 ebikes behind going down the highway...that would be impressive. Hard to believe there is no torque on that hitch nor stress on the frame with the weight extending beyond the bumper. As you know, the Fiama is attached to the AS structural frame; not the bumper; it does not wiggle, wobble, nor cause any issues...love to see an authorized/recommended alternative if there is one.

[DonRich7878]

Originally Posted by sgschwend

We do carry our bikes in the tow vehicle, it keeps them dry and secure and does not lengthen the tow. To do so we need to take the front rim off. We have found when traveling between camps it is very handy to use a bike rack. As a note about the rear frame strength: during the trailer restoration the rear three feet of the frame was strengthened with 3/16 plate the only sections not address was the inside the rear storage.

This project accomplished that part of the upgrade along with adding a receiver hitch. The receiver hitch was located within the curve of the the rear bumper maintaining the size of storage area. The result is the receiver section is proud of the bumper; if the receiver portion of the hitch had been placed flush with the bumper the storage space would have been reduced to half it original size.


images: storage frame interior sistered with 3/16" plate, hitch mounted to new plate, bumper installed showing bike rack

Great looking install. I went under the bumper with my 2" receiver setup, yours looks much better..

[Shiny16]

We mostly all have rear video cameras. I would love to see some videos posted of two bikes at 70 mph. Especially from someone with two e-bikes.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Shiny16

We mostly all have rear video cameras. I would love to see some videos posted of two bikes at 70 mph. Especially from someone with two e-bikes.

yea, me too!

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Wait a minute...you mean your towing around that Airstream with the "flimsy aluminum body" using a homemade fabricated receiver with Hollywood E bike rack in the receiver at 70mph, because the Fiama looks like a clothes drying rack, and your concerned about screwing into the Airstream frame? Love to see the "no wobble" video pictures with 2 ebikes behind going down the highway...that would be impressive. Hard to believe there is no torque on that hitch nor stress on the frame with the weight extending beyond the bumper. As you know, the Fiama is attached to the AS structural frame; not the bumper; it does not wiggle, wobble, nor cause any issues...love to see an authorized/recommended alternative if there is one.

No wobble wiggle nor jigle.
That receiver is bolted to the frame with 4 1/2" bolts and that Holywood Carryer is solid ,the main reason U purchased it.
If that 30' Airtream is that flimsy that 200 lbs hanging on the back of the frame makes it wiggle jiggle and come apart I am selling that sucker tomorrow.
As of now no need to get rid of it.
It's working just fine.
I will keep you posted.
And yes that Fiamma rack is butt ugly.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by franklyfrank

No wobble wiggle nor jigle.
That receiver is bolted to the frame with 4 1/2" bolts and that Holywood Carryer is solid ,the main reason U purchased it.
If that 30' Airtream is that flimsy that 200 lbs hanging on the back of the frame makes it wiggle jiggle and come apart I am selling that sucker tomorrow.
As of now no need to get rid of it.
It's working just fine.
I will keep you posted.
And yes that Fiamma rack is butt ugly.

Again, please take a video of your rig loaded with bikes going down the road and show us. What "you" likely don't see, many of us "do see" with those hitch type bike carriers...there is no way it "ain't" wiggleing and jiggling if it's a hitch in the receiver type bike rack. I don't care what you paid for it.

And, yes, the Fiamma may look ugly to some, but I guarantee there "ain't" no wiggle/jiggle! It is very solid.

[ricjones]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Again, please take a video of your rig loaded with bikes going down the road and show us. What "you" likely don't see, many of us "do see" with those hitch type bike carriers...there is no way it "ain't" wiggleing and jiggling if it's a hitch in the receiver type bike rack. I don't care what you paid for it.

And, yes, the Fiamma may look ugly to some, but I guarantee there "ain't" no wiggle/jiggle! It is very solid.

To correct some misinformation, the Flamma rack DOES sit on the bumper as well as screw into the trailer structural ribs. I attached a photo showing how that works.

Also, I believe that the two folks talking above are talking two different things. Bikes wobble no matter what rack/hitch. But the Tork/1UP setup itself does not wobble at all. It is rock solid. The bikes are another matter.

Our Tork hitch minimizes and wiggle but far far more important is the bike rack - the 1Up rack actually has a hex bolt in the hitch connection that you turn and it tightens this 100%. There is no wobble between the Tork hitch and the bike rack connection. Unlike trailer hitches were the 2x2 hitch wobbles.

The 1Up has some wobble, as it has many joints but it is far far less than our cheap steel made-in-china bike rack. The old cheap one was so bad, we refused to use it after the first time.

The 1UP wobbles very little. Virtually not at all on an interstate, but going over a big dip, like a bridge transition, makes them bob and weave.

But, surprisingly, now that we have watched our rear view camera for many miles, the wobble is almost 100%, with the Tork and the 1UP, simply the rack not holding the bikes themselves perfectly rigid.

The big difference between our setup and a Flamma is the number of support points. Ours has 1 support point - the hitch. The Flamma has two points on the bumber and several more on the frame supports. So much much less wobble.

And I think they look great. Goes with the Airstream.

But I base stuff when I can on actual experience from people using stuff and people I talked to had problem with screws breaking on the Flammas. But I see Gypsy Dad has never had that issue. It has to be good to have been around this long.

The two people I have talked to about the Tork/1UP set up have been using them for years each and no problems.

There is risk in everything. And many ways to do anything. Good luck with whatever you all decide.

I will definitely try to get some video and shots of our setup and report and problems and successes as we go.

Also here is the Torklift - it is a beast.
https://torkliftcentral.com/airstrea...ry-hitch-x8000

[OrangeCrush]

As the saying goes, beauty is in the eyes of the beer holder. I find the Fiama much better looking than a cantilever hitch mount bike rack. Maybe not if you remove the hitch rack but we always take bikes with use so that is moot. We frequent some remote areas and rough roads and for us the Fiama with 4-point attachment has proven very robust for holding bikes solid and I like not having to worry about dragging the tail of a hitch mount. I too have talked to many people with the Fiama and have never heard anyone mention screws breaking. My only complaints with the Fiama are 1) Stock trays are a bit narrow for wide mountain bike tires, 2) The standard arms do not provide enough articulating freedom for complex bike geometries which is solved by ordering the pro arms which should be standard, 3) Upright retainer clamps break easy and are expensive to replace so I designed and 3D printed my own, 4) A bit overpriced in my opinions.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by ricjones

To correct some misinformation, the Flamma rack DOES sit on the bumper as well as screw into the trailer structural ribs. I attached a photo showing how that works.

Also, I believe that the two folks talking above are talking two different things. Bikes wobble no matter what rack/hitch. But the Tork/1UP setup itself does not wobble at all. It is rock solid. The bikes are another matter.

Our Tork hitch minimizes and wiggle but far far more important is the bike rack - the 1Up rack actually has a hex bolt in the hitch connection that you turn and it tightens this 100%. There is no wobble between the Tork hitch and the bike rack connection. Unlike trailer hitches were the 2x2 hitch wobbles.

The 1Up has some wobble, as it has many joints but it is far far less than our cheap steel made-in-china bike rack. The old cheap one was so bad, we refused to use it after the first time.

The 1UP wobbles very little. Virtually not at all on an interstate, but going over a big dip, like a bridge transition, makes them bob and weave.

But, surprisingly, now that we have watched our rear view camera for many miles, the wobble is almost 100%, with the Tork and the 1UP, simply the rack not holding the bikes themselves perfectly rigid.

The big difference between our setup and a Flamma is the number of support points. Ours has 1 support point - the hitch. The Flamma has two points on the bumber and several more on the frame supports. So much much less wobble.

And I think they look great. Goes with the Airstream.

But I base stuff when I can on actual experience from people using stuff and people I talked to had problem with screws breaking on the Flammas. But I see Gypsy Dad has never had that issue. It has to be good to have been around this long.

The two people I have talked to about the Tork/1UP set up have been using them for years each and no problems.

There is risk in everything. And many ways to do anything. Good luck with whatever you all decide.

I will definitely try to get some video and shots of our setup and report and problems and successes as we go.

Also here is the Torklift - it is a beast.
https://torkliftcentral.com/airstrea...ry-hitch-x8000

My confusion in your comments about your use of "wiggle" and "wobble above. You say it doesn't but then you say it does, and then say the "wobble" is almost 100%

Let me clear up a few things about the Fiama. This is my 3rd Fiamma rack I purchased new and had installed on 2 of my 25' AS's and now my 28' when new. I have not had any issues with the screws breaking, wobble/wiggle issues with the bikes, nor any other issues.

1) They do sell stainless steel screws as replacements for originals and I have read here on the Forum where some folks have had their break; Maybe they go off road a lot...not sure, but that option exists if you want to replace the mounting for some reason. I personally have not had any issues.

2)The Fiamma is not attached to the "bumper"; it is attached to the steel plate which is welded to the AS structural support frame on both sides. The bumper is attached to that also. (see picture) Very solid indeed.

3) Fiamma offers rails for E-bikes and Fat Tire bikes up to 5" wide. I just installed mine shown on right in picture with black tire stops. Listed under: RAIL PREMIUM S FAT BIKE
New model based on Rail Premium S version for transporting modern bicycles with tyres up to 5-inches wide on Fiamma bicycle carriers.

Wiggle/wobble...like the "WDH" arguments, there are those who believe the "hitch/reciver" type bike rack works great and will argue the bikes don't "wiggle/wobble"...but they do, if you follow anyone with this type hitch with bikes installed. They stick out "beyond the bumper" typically with bike carrier mounted to a the hitch shaft and because of the shaft, will allow the weight being added to the carrier to wiggle/wobble...fact. Also, Airstream still does not endorse this type of hitch, as far as I know. Will the hitch type bike rack break or does it cause any safety characteristics? I don't know...many folks have these on their SOB's and also some folks on their AS's. I have followed/watched the wiggle/wobble on folks with this type rack and bikes attached..

I just know the Fiamma is rock solid and has the 4 point connection system to the structural support of the AS. You may think it's "ugly; expensive; limited in max weight"; but it works great and is endorsed by Airstream.