safe way to flip

[jmonk]

Got '59 ambassador and the rear 4 feet of the frame are gone; not rusted, gone. I've got the shell off using the jack method, which went fairly well; no broken stuff anyway.

So the very idea of crawling under there and removing the belly pan fills me with dread. I'd really like to flip the frame and work from above. Is there a way to flip it without gantries. The other big problem is the rear attachment point.

Can it be lifted using the axles/hubs as an attachment point?

That sounds like a good way to tear something up real bad, but I'm at a loss for how to do this without the rear attachment points.

Oh yeah, I'm doing this alone. Yes, people say I'm crazy... whatever.

James

[CRH]

I would weld on attachment points

[57Vintage]

I used an automobile rotisserie, which I already had. You might try googling homemade auto rotisserie and see some that are made old engine stands or even out of wood. May give you an idea that works within your parameters.
Just be careful you have it balanced left to right. Also remove the axles. With them below the plane of the frame they will make the rotation process dangerous.



IMO opinion your onto the right idea, the ability to rotate the frame makes repairs and the initial rebuild so much easier.

[Belegedhel]

Unless you have access to a crane, or some other overhead lifting point (cross-beams in a barn, etc), building the ubiquitous wooden gantries is probably the easiest/cheapest way to go.

Using my wooden gantries and three chain hoists, I was able to safely flip my frame. Between the repairs to the frame, the painting, and the reinstallation of floor, belly pan, insulation, and new tanks, I flipped my frame over and over again. If I had done the work without flipping, I would have given up the project long ago.

good luck!

[putback]

Great to have company in the loony ben. Did the same on a '63 ambassador last summer, ALONE. As you I braced / jacked the body & pulled the chassie out from under. The frame was'nt worth fixing. At that point I did build the gantries. Had done 2 in the past w/o gantries that did'nt need a new frame, those 2 went ok, but....... For $120.00 in rough cut hemloch 4X4 s from a local mill & a few bucks for threaded rebar it was well worth it. After having the gantries I don't know how I ever got the bodys reset properly on the 1st two. No B S, gantries cut your time by at least half, a heck of a lot safer and the agrivation factor goes way down. ALL BY YOURSELF, untill you buck rivet. Any way if the back 4 ft of your frame is shot / gone odds are your gonna end up like mine. between the welding, insulation, tanks & plumbing, floor, belly pan on & on I'd guess I fliped mine 8 times. Your attachment ?, i just welded on 2 Xmembers & a 3"pipe and set it in a chain "cradle" worked fine to rotate. Cut them off when it was back on the ground. With out the axles it flipped easy. The last flip with the axles on was a bit of a problem. Center of mass way off, easy to get away from you.

[jmonk]

I'm pretty convinced the gantries will be a must for putting things back together. Meanwhile I got the belly pan out with it on the ground. I avoided crawling under as long and as much as possible but eventually frustration got the better of me. I didn't destroy anything completely, but got pretty rough with it. None of the aluminum was good anyway but may be useful for partial templates.

I had the welder come out and look at the frame. Most of the tongue needs to be replaced and a total of about six feet of the rear.

I'm looking to extend the frame about 12 to 18 inches for a rear mini-split compressor. That should probably be another thread, but does anyone have any experience with extending the frame? I've seen it done, but don't know anything.

[putback]

Yea, I added 10 inches for a storage compartment. Just added a foot to the tail when I built the frame. Looking to install an aluminum compartment btween the frame rails. No prob to do & looks fine, at 10 inches it do'snt have a Stuck on the back look. Lot of warnings on site about adding much weight to the tail, frame & body issues. I'm looking at 25 lbs.

[jmonk]

Yeah, the weight scares me a lot. The compressor weighs 72 pounds. I was initially impressed with the rigidity of the frame 'til I really started bouncing on it. I think the first thing to go through my head was "whoa, don't do that again".

Once again I'm probably looking at a different thread regarding the mini-split, but I'm pretty committed to giving it a go. What's more is the HVAC requirement altogether. We're building this for mobile media production so we're setting it up with two separate 9,000 btu systems; one on the tongue and one in the back. I wanted to keep the rear system inside, but there just isn't room once you factor in adequate ventilation for the compressor. Maybe if it was a sovereign... hmm.

I've heard of tube steel being driven inside the box steel and then plug welding it in place to re-enforce the frame. That would probably be more than strong enough but I'm hoping not to need it. We're converting it to a center bath with a queen bed in the back which should cut down or at least re-distribute some weight.

Thanks for the reply. It definitely makes me look closer at what I'm doing.

[putback]

When you move the bath to ctr the black water waste tank [full] would take +or- a hundred pounds off the tail. Yours is the era with above floor tank, easy. Weight is then no issue. BUT the rear body-floor-frame seperation issue as I understand it and have seen 1st hand is the weight bearing on the frame only beyond the hull. Over time pulls the frame-floor away from the C-channel / hull. Common problem on some long models, lot of post here on it including repair. They make/ use "elephant ears". Just a bit of added plate steel to reinforce the connection. I added them to my '62 & '63 ambassadors just because, easy when striped. Best to look it up, try rear or tail seperation or elephant ears. I'd be confident with the 100 lbs especially in your area. Not like up here w/ frost heaves, pot holes ect. Constant rumble strip!

[jmonk]

Some light reading on the rear separation issue has me rethinking the whole thing. This is rapidly turning into a much different discussion on a topic that's still a bit of an enigma. Mini-splits make so much sense in many ways, but given our application they may not be quite "there" yet.

Mounting the exterior unit on the back bumper is just ugly for starters, but it seemed like the lesser of two evils. It would require a huge sacrifice of space to put the unit behind the skin and still provide adequate ventilation not to mention keeping things dry.

The solution would be a 12,000 btu system that could support multiple circuits/interior units and run on 110 volts. I'm not aware of such an animal and a 12,000 btu system seems a little short anyway. A single 12,000 btu interior head doesn't seem adequate to circulate cold/heat throughout the entire trailer even if living quarters weren't separated from work space. The wall between the two negates the conversation entirely.

I've got to find some more information regarding mini-split installs before I proceed further.

Any thoughts on the idea of the tube steel inside the box steel to re-enforce the frame?

[57Vintage]

I would think thicker walled tubing would make more sense and start with new frame rails, but that may be more than you want to do.

I used an alternative. I took 1.5" square tubing and build a perimeter to mount the U channel/shell on. It's welded to the frame and outriggers. My thought was to lessen the stress on the points where the shell mounts to the frame/outriggers and to remove the sub floor from the frame/shell connection.

[jmonk]

The other possibility that I haven't considered, largely because it's terrifying to me, is converting 110 to 220. The amperage draw of the mini-split is so low that it shouldn't require a tremendous lot of power and I could run a dual zone unit that would meet all my needs. My fear stems from ignorance. Can a 50 amp 110 service safely be used to convert to 220 for power on a mini split.

If that were a possibility an 18,000 btu outdoor unit could be tongue mounted and 2 separate 9,000 btu zones could be operated inside.

[jmonk]

Better still, if 30 amp 110 could be converted I could still run what I need. 15 amps of 220 would be approximately double what I need... I think.

[jmonk]

I'm going to pose this question somewhere on the electrical forums. This has definitely grown past the belly pan topic. I'll call the thread "Safe way to run 230 volt mini split?"

[jmonk]

Just a quick update; I created a new thread in electrical called safe way to wire 240 volt mini split? and got some great answers. Yes, you can in fact operate a 240 volt mini split using a 50 amp RV hookup. That opens up a lot of possibilities, multi zone being at the top of the list. One condenser, tongue mounted, that will run HVAC zones/circuits throughout the trailer.

I'm still a long way out from starting but needed a plan before having the frame repaired/modified. Now that I have a plan I'll document the process from the new frame to functional HVAC. I'll start a new thread in the HVAC forum once I've made some headway.

I'm so stoked about not having a hideous condenser sitting on a ridiculous frame extension. It would have nearly defeated the purpose of loosing roof units completely. This is really exciting.

[jmonk]

Almost forgot; back to the belly pan - I'm likely to be in and out of it from now 'til who knows due to cabling for our application. The HVAC lines will also run through the outriggers and may need accessibility. I'd really like to run pvc conduit to protect copper lines and cables and also do the pan in sections that would allow access to outriggers, probably street side. Access would also allow me to get things somewhat put back together (shell back on) and then install HVAC. I don't think this should be a problem, but folks here know better than me. Also, what are the pros and cons of floor insulation. I've seen some pretty awful stuff happen as a result of condensation in houses that had a vapor barrier installed incorrectly.

[57Vintage]

Running conduit through the outriggers is not hard, just tedious. One bottle neck is on the curb side to get around your folding step enclosure. The PVC boxes can be mounted flush to the sub floor. I ran 1" PVC conduit. I would recommend 1-1/2". Larger size wire can be hard to fish.

I didn't run any conduit (front to back) inside the frame rails as I have 4 tanks and all the associated plumbing.

I would recommend getting your layout finalized on paper first. That will dictate were you can place boxes to access your wiring & a/c lines inside the shell.

I'm not sure why you couldn't fish your a/c lines through the PVC later.

The large box to the right of the step enclosure is where my electrical panel and mechanical controls are situated. It was ~8"x8". All the rest were 4"x4".
You may have more room to work around the step enclosure than I had. It was tight getting 1" forward.



I ran conduit side to side in only two places. At the rear under the bath and just behind the step enclosure area. I would recommend at least three. I didn't drill through the frame rails. I just place an access box on each side of the frame rail and looped wiring over the sub floor. In hind sight I should have drilled the frame rails and welded in round tubing plugs for the conduit to go through. Fishing all the wiring would have been so much easier.

More detail in our post below.

[jmonk]

Yes definitely on the paper plan. All my power "stuff" will be street side. There will be outlets on the curbside of course, but I plan to keep that wiring in the shell. It should just be the HVAC power in the outriggers. I'd like to run two separate 1 and 1/2 inch conduit runs for power and cooling lines. As long as they're spaced correctly will that work structurally?

Also considering data, audio and possibly video lines in the shell, but not sure about audio and video. An I/O panel is probably all I'll need.

[57Vintage]

I assume your outriggers are solid like mine, not perforated like the newer style. Two holes shouldn't be a problem. I spaced mine in the middle, top to bottom.

I wouldn't recommend going smaller than 1" pvc conduit. Too tight for wire, especially on long runs. Like I mentioned I wish I had done 1-1/2" or even 2".

Just an fyi, I didn't run conduit over the wheel houses. I just took 45 degree pvc pieces to bring the conduit above the sub floor at the front and rear of the wheel houses. I ran some wiring (critical stuff for traveling) around the wheel house in case of a shredded tire taking out the wheel house. Some wiring I just ran over the top of the wheel house. This allowed me to insert wiring from the bedroom walls for lights/plug-ins (twin beds) into the conduit.

My original inner and outer wheel houses were in good shape and galvanized, but its pretty thin gauge. I added a piece of 18 gauge on the curved part of the wheel house (outer, next to the tire) as a third layer and undercoated it on both sides.

[jmonk]

Sorry for the lag. I'm dogsitting for my youngest daughter and it's thrown a wrinkle in my schedule.

That said it also has me driving by the welder's shop and I'm scheduled to drop the frame off tomorrow morning.

I have a pretty important question that is probably going to draw different answers but need to know more than I do.

The welder plans to replace bad sections of frame rail with 8th inch box steel which is thicker than the original. The tongue is being replaced almost all the way back to the bend in the frame rail that starts the angle of the 'A' frame; about eight feet. The rear frame rails are being replaced from the bumper (which I'm planning to save and re-use) to about six feet in.

I know there are bound to be different opinions so I'm really looking for a bottom line answer realizing that everyone's bottom line is usually different. Once again I find myself asking "when is good enough really good enough?"