Free 7 Day Trial RV GPS App RV Trip Planner Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Free 7 Day Trial ×
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-29-2017, 09:15 PM   #41
PKI
Rivet Master
 
PKI's Avatar
 
Currently Looking...
Walnut Creek , California
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 3,920
Boxite - What leads you to believe the fastener was loose? The OP states the fastener pulled through. The picture shows torn metal, but no fastener.

We all need to take reasonable responsibility for the safety of our rigs. The owners, all of them should have investigated the soft feel when first identified. So, no argument there.

However, it seems like the design for a safety component like a step should have an attachment point that could not pull through. And redundant attachment hardware does not seem inappropriate. Pat
PKI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2017, 08:05 AM   #42
Rivet Master
 
Boxite's Avatar
 
2008 22' Sport
Spicewood (W of Austin) , Texas
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,730
Quote:
Originally Posted by PKI View Post
Boxite - What leads you to believe the fastener was loose? The OP states the fastener pulled through. The picture shows torn metal, but no fastener.

We all need to take reasonable responsibility for the safety of our rigs. The owners, all of them should have investigated the soft feel when first identified. So, no argument there.

However, it seems like the design for a safety component like a step should have an attachment point that could not pull through. And redundant attachment hardware does not seem inappropriate. Pat
Pat, the Original Post stated:
Quote:
Originally Posted by upnorththree View Post
...We bought our 2014 FC last fall from a private individual. Very nice people but now the verdict is out on their honesty.

We noticed at time of purchase the step was soft, spongy kind of feel and they claimed they had no idea why. Turns out the bolt and washer pulled through the mounting angle iron last week....
So the OP knew WHEN THEY BOUGHT IT OVER SIX MONTHS ago there was a problem with a "soft" step. it finally "pulled through last week". That step could only be "soft" if the fastener was loose... either not torqued...or beginning to "pull through" which means it's lost whatever torque it may have once had. Think about that.
The step had been ignored by the previous owner...and the current owner continued to ignore a soft step ... until complete failure occurred. My statement was to the point that proper maintenance was not performed when symptoms first presented.... a "soft" step. An entire career based upon maintenance of equipment indicates to me that the fastener was loose/stretched/improperly-fastened until overload for that condition resulted in the pull-through.
My point is: You cannot blame previous owners for "honesty" issues when, TRUTH be known, present owners ignore obvious defects also.
Boxite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2017, 09:32 AM   #43
PKI
Rivet Master
 
PKI's Avatar
 
Currently Looking...
Walnut Creek , California
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 3,920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxite View Post
Pat, the Original Post stated:
-- snip -- That step could only be "soft" if the fastener was loose... either not torqued...or beginning to "pull through" which means it's lost whatever torque it may have once had. Think about that. -- snip --.
Yes, think about it. The fastener does not have to be loose for the metal to tear. The step would feel spongy if the strength of the metal was compromised as it shows to be in the picture. A loose fastener may well be correct, but that fact is not in evidence. It is appropriate to consider the fastener to be a cause, but not appropriate to believe it is the only possible failure mode.

And yes, questioning someone's honesty is not appropriate. Ignorance all around may be more correct. Most of us just don't expect a frame to fail.

You may have a depth of experience that has shown you it's always the fastener. My experience is that most failure analysis results with the design being changed as corrective action. A robust design improves the quality of the product by eliminating possible points of failure.

You are correct, the fastener would lose it's torque if the metal was weak enough for it to pull or tear out. Pat
PKI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2017, 02:52 PM   #44
Rivet Master
 
Boxite's Avatar
 
2008 22' Sport
Spicewood (W of Austin) , Texas
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,730
PKI, what part of the discussion isn't clear to you that the step's fastening was defective and the OP continued to stress it for about six months ...THEN complained the fastener "pulled thru"?

It's nothing but obtuse to keep operating a device that is known to be in a failing condition and then complain it must be the mfr's fault and the PREVIOUS owner's dishonesty. (OP's comment...not mine.) By the way, WHERE in any of those pics is the BOLT which is being blamed? I believe it might have been LOOSE.

I'm through. Keep operating with discrepancies and see how that works out for you.
Boxite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2017, 05:30 PM   #45
Rivet Master
 
1976 31' Sovereign
Oswego , Illinois
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,923
Blog Entries: 1
As original poster stated in follow up post #18 where bolt pulled out material is gutter thin. IMO this is a major design flaw and cheapness instead of using material heavy enough for this usage, but there are a lot of design changes over years just to save money and enhance profits. AS used to have life time warranty until last year was 1974, complaints started short time before, after 1974 cheapness of materials used and methods changed, then when sold to Beatris [don't no spelling], really went down hill. When Thor corp. pur. lot of things changed but still not what is expected FOR QUALITY. I have owned AS since 1963 [5 AS and 1 Argosy]. I believe I'm oldest continuse owner and still going with out help. 83 yrs. old. I have seen many changes in AS design and QC. I also had several sob at same time.
featherbedder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2017, 06:25 PM   #46
PKI
Rivet Master
 
PKI's Avatar
 
Currently Looking...
Walnut Creek , California
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 3,920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxite View Post
By the way, WHERE in any of those pics is the BOLT which is being blamed? I believe it might have been LOOSE. .
From post #18 by OP - "For that matter the bolt, washer, and snap nut survived perfectly after it sheered through the mounting point."

The picture of the bolt is in post #28 where it is shown after the repair was completed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxite View Post
-- snip -- Keep operating with discrepancies and see how that works out for you.
Proposing that anyone should practice an unsafe act is inappropriate. Maybe you meant "if". In any case, that was addressed prior.

From post #37 - The purpose of identifying a root cause is to develop a corrective action. In this case, as the cow is out of the barn, the CA would be on-going inspection and possible attachment hardware and structure upgrade. Guess I better inspect Glimmer's step attachment.

We both agree that unsafe conditions must be resolved. Pat
PKI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2017, 06:33 PM   #47
Rivet Master
 
Mollysdad's Avatar

 
2017 26' Flying Cloud
Tampa , Florida
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 5,577
Blog Entries: 1
Go back and re-read post #20.
It's "fairly common"
Now go back to the OP's photos. Just to the left is another hole.
Then the hole used for the step is way oversized.
Looks to me the factory drilled the hole in the wrong place or re-used a scrap section, and that's why it failed.
Thor.
Mollysdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2017, 01:34 PM   #48
Rivet Master
 
Boxite's Avatar
 
2008 22' Sport
Spicewood (W of Austin) , Texas
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,730
Or an owner did the typical thing and forgot to stow the steps and backed over an object pulling the deployed-steps loose.

What seems to be missed in all this is, if the frame were "flimsy" due to poor design... then how is it that the only other attach-point (presumeably an equally "defectively-designed" part) was able to hold those steps in a useful position from the "previous fall" to the present owner's "pull-through" with only half of the steps attached? One would think that the forward attach-point would have failed almost immediately (not months later) especially considering the lever-arm the entire step assembly applied against that forward "poorly-designed" attach point. So it's difficult for me to blame the design as defective if half of it can operate under that abuse for so long.

I'm only opining that there are plenty of things to find defective and it is rapidly becoming the vogue thing to do.... blame the mfr'r regardless of operator-error and long-term-neglect and abuse. There are times when blame rightfully belongs to the owner/operator. IMO.
Boxite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2017, 11:25 AM   #49
PKI
Rivet Master
 
PKI's Avatar
 
Currently Looking...
Walnut Creek , California
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 3,920
Boxite - That is a very good question. Why did only one point fail?

It is possible there is a correlation with heavier step loading climbing into or out of the coach on one side or the other due to door hinge location, high user weight, or some other factor? The hole to the side of the failure in the original picture may be access to the fastener, a mistake, or another attachment point. It does appear to be an area with less strength. Bet there are other potential causes that could be considered as well.

Root cause analysis is a process that digs into all of the potential causes to find the problem that initiates the subsequent events that result in failure.

Having the customer identify and correct a problem before it results in failure is a valid approach. Anal folks used to crawl under their new car as soon as they got it home and tighten up all the bolts. Now, assembly operations tighten fasteners to engineered torque ratings and owners no longer find loose hardware. In root cause analysis, the deferral of correction to the customer is described as correcting the symptom and does not address the illness.

Yes, it has become in vogue to blame the manufacturer. It is justified and not to be discounted. Our cars are now reliable through 200-300K miles and our expectation is high when we spend our hard earned money. The RV industry has not advanced to the same level of design and manufacturing performance. AS has adopted the Toyota Manufacturing Process, but implementation is lagging. The "just in time" materials delivery and CNC machining is only part of the Process. When you tour the factory, the pictorial assembly material originally created in the TMP implementation is posted in a disused location and the focus is on getting the coaches out the door. In business you got to do what you got to do, but good engineering and manufacturing methods save more money than they cost. There is also the old nut that when the manufacturing guy retired, he said "they had my hands all these years, if they had only asked, they could have had my brain too." Manufacturing has good ideas. They need to be included in the process.

Note, that the process of identifying a root cause is helped considerably by not blaming anyone. A design may be problematic because of unknown factors. The same is true with an assembly process and customer maintenance. Assigning blame just makes folks defensive and tends to misdirect the investigation, often passing over potential issues that do effect the failure.

This is really a very simple failure to fix as a washer seems to strengthen the attachment point and a simple backing plate is likely a permanently repair. That probably contributes to your frustration with the conversation, which is understandable.

Travel safe. Pat
PKI is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Stud Welder The Flintstones Ribs, Skins & Rivets 11 04-24-2009 04:27 PM
Which welder do I need? Bob Thompson Ribs, Skins & Rivets 9 04-22-2007 09:25 PM
The welder is coming, the welder is coming... Safari Tim General Interior Topics 13 09-01-2006 10:00 AM
sunday fun with the welder! john hd Hitches, Couplers & Balls 19 07-30-2006 09:50 PM
Going to the welder Bobolo Repairing/Replacing Floor &/or Frame 23 07-14-2005 10:57 PM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.