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Old 02-24-2019, 04:31 PM   #1
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2016 23' Flying Cloud
Ventura , California
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Larger wheels for increased clearance?

Hi AS Community, First Forum entry...

I have had a 2016 23FB since last May. Several long successful trips so far. Love it. But...clearance seems minimal. Especially the bundle of plumbing hanging down on the left side. Worried about that “strange” gas station approach or challenging campground. Doesn’t look to me like bumper skids would always protect under carriage. Thoughts? Solutions that some of you pros have already employed?

I’m guessing lift kits and wheel changes but also don’t know ramifications.

Thanks, Ben
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Old 02-24-2019, 05:08 PM   #2
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Larger wheels

Starting with the 2017 model year, AS installed 15" wheels with the Goodyear Endurance tires on both of the 23' models. This raised the coach some. They also went to the 12" drum brakes. You should be able to install the 15" wheels with no problem. I think I read somewhere that someone installed 16" wheels and tires to a 23'er, but also added a lift kit so they would fit. We have a 2017 23D and have no problem dragging anything even when pulling it up our driveway which is a pretty good uphill with a decent swale/gutter at bottom of driveway. I did have DW get out and watch the first time up. 20k miles so far and never scraped or bottomed out.
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Old 02-24-2019, 05:33 PM   #3
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Going from 14" to 15" or from 15" to 16" wheels and tires will only get you about half an inch more ground clearance--not enough to make much of a difference.

If you want to see serious improvement, have a Dexter lift kit installed. 2.5" to 3" is typical. Folks who have done this (including me) have found that it makes a big difference in ground clearance, and contrary to what you might think, doesn't noticeably affect handling.
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Old 02-24-2019, 06:49 PM   #4
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15” wheels and a lift.

Do Both, a lift and 15” wheels. The 15” wheels will give you the option for the Michelin LT 235/75R15 orthe Goodyear Endurance tires and the lift will give you the Rear clearance you are looking for with no noted towable difference.
Here are a few of my blog post as reference.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/blog...lift-kit-2901/


http://www.airforums.com/forums/blog...-upgrade-2899/
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Old 02-25-2019, 10:00 AM   #5
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Thank you all. Am pondering...the opinions are certainly split between leaving it alone and putting a lift/new wheel set. Hummm... again, thanks!
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Old 02-25-2019, 11:00 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCRMER View Post
Thank you all. Am pondering...the opinions are certainly split between leaving it alone and putting a lift/new wheel set. Hummm... again, thanks!
Dexter lift kit from e- trailer...
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Old 02-25-2019, 11:01 AM   #7
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I don't think you would ever regret adding a lift kit. Depending on your travel habits, it can make a huge difference in rear end dragging and/or dump valves. Changing to 15" wheels will give you some more/better tire options, but, as previously stated, very little height increase. If you only want to do one or the other, do the lift. If you want to do both, do the lift first and then decide whether you want to go with 15" or 16".
Wishing you luck!
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Old 02-25-2019, 04:04 PM   #8
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Re posting this info. There is a tremendous difference in diameter between the stock 14" GYM tires (26.7") and stock 15" GYM or GYE tires (28.3"). We went with Michelin 15" LTX (P) 235/75R15 XL tires that are 28.9" in diameter. Thus our 2015 23D gained 1.1" in ground clearance.

There would not have been room for the 16" Michelin LT225/75R16/E LTX M/S2 with a diameter of 29.2" as they would have rubbed on our trailer. Besides that is overkill for load capacity on a 23D.

Our real loaded weights are:

Tongue………928
Front….1,280……1,246 - total front axle 2,526
Rear…..1,376……1,233 - total rear axle 2,609
Total Axles………5,135
Total Trailer….6,063

Prior post:

Tire size comparison
16" Michelin LT225/75R16/E LTX M/S2 tire is rated 2,680 pounds @ 80 psi and 29.2" diameter

15" Michelin LTX (P) 235/75R15 XL tire is rated 2,183 pounds @ 50 psi - derated to 1,985 pounds and 28.9" diameter

15" GYM ST225/75R15D tire is rated 2,540 pounds @ 65 psi and 28.3” diameter

15" GYE ST225/75R15 tire is rated 2,830 pounds @ 80 psi and 28.3" diameter

14" GYM ST215/75R14C tire is rated 1,870 pounds @ 50 psi and 26.7" diameter

The 16" Michelins will work in any wide body twin or triple axle Airstream 25' and longer. The increase in ground clearance is 0.45" plus more proven reliability.

We upgraded the stock 14" GYM tires and wheels on our 2015 23D to the 15" Michelin tires above on 15" SenDel T03-56545T wheels rated 2,150 pounds at 60 psi that match the 16" SenDel T03-66655T wheels mounted on our Classic with the 16" Michelin tires. This elevated the 23D 1.1" to the same elevation of our 2013 25FB so the reused Hensley hitch of the 25FB worked with no modifications of settings on the 23D using the same tow vehicle.

My prior post mentioned the 15" SenDel wheel with the five lug bolt pattern of the 14" stock wheel on our 23D. The center hole is the same diameter as the OEM wheel so we reused the center caps.

The 15" T03-56655SM SenDel for six lug nuts is rated 2,830 pounds at 80 psi.

The Classic's 16" SenDel T03-66655M wheel is rated 3,580 pounds @ 80 psi. The center hole can use the stock Airstream center cap.
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Old 02-25-2019, 04:13 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by switz View Post
Our real loaded weights are...
Love this kind of super detailed technical information. Print off and put in my notes binder. Thanx again.
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Old 02-25-2019, 04:26 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by switz View Post
Re posting this info. There is a tremendous difference in diameter between the stock 14" GYM tires (26.7") and stock 15" GYM or GYE tires (28.3"). We went with Michelin 15" LTX (P) 235/75R15 XL tires that are 28.9" in diameter. Thus our 2015 23D gained 1.1" in ground clearance.

There would not have been room for the 16" Michelin LT225/75R16/E LTX M/S2 with a diameter of 29.2" as they would have rubbed on our trailer. Besides that is overkill for load capacity on a 23D.

Our real loaded weights are:

Tongue………928
Front….1,280……1,246 - total front axle 2,526
Rear…..1,376……1,233 - total rear axle 2,609
Total Axles………5,135
Total Trailer….6,063

Prior post:

Tire size comparison
16" Michelin LT225/75R16/E LTX M/S2 tire is rated 2,680 pounds @ 80 psi and 29.2" diameter

15" Michelin LTX (P) 235/75R15 XL tire is rated 2,183 pounds @ 50 psi - derated to 1,985 pounds and 28.9" diameter

15" GYM ST225/75R15D tire is rated 2,540 pounds @ 65 psi and 28.3” diameter

15" GYE ST225/75R15 tire is rated 2,830 pounds @ 80 psi and 28.3" diameter

14" GYM ST215/75R14C tire is rated 1,870 pounds @ 50 psi and 26.7" diameter

The 16" Michelins will work in any wide body twin or triple axle Airstream 25' and longer. The increase in ground clearance is 0.45" plus more proven reliability.

We upgraded the stock 14" GYM tires and wheels on our 2015 23D to the 15" Michelin tires above on 15" SenDel T03-56545T wheels rated 2,150 pounds at 60 psi that match the 16" SenDel T03-66655T wheels mounted on our Classic with the 16" Michelin tires. This elevated the 23D 1.1" to the same elevation of our 2013 25FB so the reused Hensley hitch of the 25FB worked with no modifications of settings on the 23D using the same tow vehicle.

My prior post mentioned the 15" SenDel wheel with the five lug bolt pattern of the 14" stock wheel on our 23D. The center hole is the same diameter as the OEM wheel so we reused the center caps.

The 15" T03-56655SM SenDel for six lug nuts is rated 2,830 pounds at 80 psi.

The Classic's 16" SenDel T03-66655M wheel is rated 3,580 pounds @ 80 psi. The center hole can use the stock Airstream center cap.


[ATTACH]334406
I upgraded both Axles to New Dexters never adjust/never lube Axles with new SenDel wheels as come on 2019 Airstream.
The ground clearance did increase almost 2 inches.
The increase in braking alone was worth the cost.
We remodeled our trailer with added cabinets and Corian countertops and new heavier chair height toilet.
If you want to do away with blowouts that could cost much more then the upgrades, you will have peace of mind.
If the Michelin’s were not better why is AS factory putting them
on the newer high end trailers.

Keep in mind I could have that more money means better that infects many of us that pull around our pride and joys...
I am almost positive Journey (our silver bullets name) told me she loves her new shoes.....[emoji854]
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Old 02-25-2019, 05:13 PM   #11
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Gvwr

Switz, what are your thoughts regarding running a TT near/over the GVWR? The only information I could find on the 23' D lists GVWR @ 6,000 lbs with a base of 4,761 lbs. Do you think the CCC is unrealistic for the 23'?

Do your other rigs run close/over their respective GVWR ratings? What do you believe is a safe overweight? Do you think the CCC of your other trailers is more in line with real world requirements?

Also curious about your 15.3% tongue weight. In your experience, is that a typical balance? Assuming even after taking weight inventory and making certain adjustments.

The reason I ask is that we're making a move from a class C RV to a 25' FC FBT. Our MH is fairly small at 22' with a GVWR of 10,500 lbs. However, the CCC is fairly limited, so we're always conscious of what we pack and take along.

I'm trying to avoid the hassle of carefully managing our weight & gear with the TT, so I'd really appreciate any real world feedback. Depending on what we finally believe is a fair expectation, we can make a better decision regarding the TV.

I took a photo of my notes covering both the Ford F series trucks, as well as some simple back-of-envelop calculations comparing a F150 4x4 HDPP vs a stock F250 4x2 gasser. Based on using your stats, I thinking I might adjust the 7,300 GVWR slightly upward (overweight). Still, there should still be plenty of payload capacity for either TV option. The last two photos are the payload capacity stickers of each.
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Old 02-25-2019, 06:13 PM   #12
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Note that the 63 pounds over GVW of our 23D could be the contents of the refrigerator or several books. Note that the axles are rated 3,000 pounds each so we are about 15% under full load. The car scales just over 6,400 pounds so the rig is about 12,500 pounds.

Our Classic with a 10,000 pound GVW with 5,000 pound axles has these numbers:

Classic Scale numbers May 2014

……1200……——1200

2034……2042—4076

1921…….2062—3983

Total weight——9259

Michelin LT225/75R16/E LTX M/S2 tires rated 2,680 pounds at 80 psi and we carry 73 psi per the load table.

In most instances, a vehicle's GVW is less than the total of the axle ratings. The tire combined tire load ratings exceed the axle rating. So the usual lowest real rating on a vehicle could be the axle rating.

We drive our 2007 Mercedes ML320 CDI as tow vehicle for the 23D. We load the car to keep the axles properly loaded. There is not a lot of stuff carried in the back of the car: Honda 2000 watt generator, 20 pound propane tank if needed, tools, tire pump, very light infra red grill and the two awning fabric matching ZipDee chairs like our Classic has.

The secret for us is driving the Mercedes and 23D at a max speed of 55 mph which is a sweet spot for the 3.0L turbo diesel and we see about 16.5 mpg. We can usually maintain 55 going upwards in third gear and slow to 30 to 35 in descents in second gear and do not need wheel brakes as the diesel engine back pressure keeps the speed controlled.

We tow the Classic with a Ram Cummins 2500HD 4x4. If it fits, it ships. I am willing to cruise at 65mph as that is the peak torque rpm in 6th gear.

I have found it is wise to really get to 45 mph for long steep descents because 19,200 pounds does tend to accelerate down hill.

If one is pulled over by DOT, they look at tire and axle ratings and the load per axle to determine if an axle is overloaded or the rig is scaling more than the license plate fee paid for.

The other top priority for me is Michelin tires on all vehicles. No failure on cars or trucks in nearly 50 years of using that brand. Had several ST tire failures on motorcycle trailers so moved trailers to Michelin tires when we started the Airstream adventure. In fact, I put the Michelins on as soon as I had the trailer home from the dealership, or for the 23D, I brought the five Michelins mounted and installed them at the dealer in New Jersey before leaving their lot.

One needs to be aware of the hitch receiver rating of the tow vehicle and compare that to the actual tongue weight with no weight distribution tuned on. My 2013 25FB International Serenity had a literature tongue weight of 833 and was actually 1,150 pounds when ready to tow off the dealer lot. Just saying, the Airstream literature numbers reflect a truly empty trailer with no propane in the tanks or fluids in the trailer.
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Old 02-25-2019, 07:28 PM   #13
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The skids do not protect the sewer plumbing. When the wheels drop in a hole or off a significant driveway transition, the sewer hits the road. Not a good thing. The protection for those pipes/valves is the available clearance and your management of that clearance.

Replace 14in wheels with 15in at a minimum. Unless your travel requirements require a lift, you are better off to remain with the stock configuration. Some folks can not do without the lift. Others will never need it and are better off keeping the COG low.

Welcome to the 23 world. Travel safe. Pat
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Old 02-25-2019, 09:56 PM   #14
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we did a 3" lift kit for our as 22fb . best soln for us . no more scraps at the rear

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f295...rt-109420.html
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Old 02-26-2019, 08:16 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSteed View Post
[ATTACH]334406

If the Michelin’s were not better why is AS factory putting them
on the newer high end trailers.
The answer in part is because of the market place. Buyers of new larger AS wanted Michelin tires and AS installed them. Well sort of.

At least at one point, to limit liability, AS move the fully assembled trailer to the Service Center and the Service Center installed Michelin tires. This is because Michelin does not manufacturer trailer tires and does not recommend their tires in trailer application. So how can a vehicle manufacturer install tires that are specifically NOT recommended by the tire manufacturer for that application? The truth was they didn't!

The AS Service Center is a seperate company from AS manufacturing. So the liability would have been contained to the Service Center should any negative event happen down the road. Making the decision for installing Michelins tires was one of the buyers and not of the manufacturing company. Not sure if this being done today. And the Service Center will do a lot of things if the owner of the trailer is making the decision. they just become a vendor doing the trailer owner's decisions.

Just like the subject of this thread. AS does not make available lift kits (or any means to increase height) for their trailers. That could be for a lot of reasons and the biggest one would be liability. (High speed roll over of a lifted trailer that got unstable) It the trailer owner does it that is the decision the trailer owner made. If the vehicle manufacturer does it, the vehicle manufacturer has to stand the liability for every user that has that option and has an event. The vehicle manufacturer may survive the event. And at what costs? Trust me when I say Michelin has far deeper pockets than AS. And Michelin can always go back to WE DON'T RECOMMEND OR APPROVE OUR TIRES FOR TRAILER USE. WE DO NOT MAKE ST TIRES.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action
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Old 02-26-2019, 08:09 PM   #16
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I lifted my 27FB. And increased the size of my tires from 225/75/15 to 235/75/15.

Best modification I've done. There's been no stability impacts perceptible from the drivers seat. I regularly go up to the mountains on real swtichbacks and steep grades, and it's been as easy hauling as ever. Been in very high 45+ mph winds, again just fine.

This is with my relatively short wheelbase 112.3" Lexus Land Cruiser and a standard Equilizer hitch.

Excellent manueverability, stability, with great boondocking clearance. Highly recommended.

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Old 02-27-2019, 07:38 AM   #17
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The 16" Michelin tires were factory installed on the Eddie Bauer models and the 2015 Classics as the stock tires. That made the factory responsible for the use of that tire as that was not an option.

On the basis of the factory use of a specific SenDel wheel (T03-66655T) and Michelin LT225/75R16/E LTX M/S2 tires, I installed them on our 2014 Classic as soon as I got the trailer off the dealership lot and into our storage area. That tire raised the trailer 0.45" over the stock GYM tires of the day.

BTW. Both the old 15" GYM ST225/75R15D and new 15" GYE ST225/75R15E tires are the same diameter at 28.3".
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Old 02-27-2019, 11:14 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Action View Post
The answer in part is because of the market place. Buyers of new larger AS wanted Michelin tires and AS installed them. Well sort of.

At least at one point, to limit liability, AS move the fully assembled trailer to the Service Center and the Service Center installed Michelin tires. This is because Michelin does not manufacturer trailer tires and does not recommend their tires in trailer application. So how can a vehicle manufacturer install tires that are specifically NOT recommended by the tire manufacturer for that application? The truth was they didn't!

The AS Service Center is a seperate company from AS manufacturing. So the liability would have been contained to the Service Center should any negative event happen down the road. Making the decision for installing Michelins tires was one of the buyers and not of the manufacturing company. Not sure if this being done today. And the Service Center will do a lot of things if the owner of the trailer is making the decision. they just become a vendor doing the trailer owner's decisions.

Just like the subject of this thread. AS does not make available lift kits (or any means to increase height) for their trailers. That could be for a lot of reasons and the biggest one would be liability. (High speed roll over of a lifted trailer that got unstable) It the trailer owner does it that is the decision the trailer owner made. If the vehicle manufacturer does it, the vehicle manufacturer has to stand the liability for every user that has that option and has an event. The vehicle manufacturer may survive the event. And at what costs? Trust me when I say Michelin has far deeper pockets than AS. And Michelin can always go back to WE DON'T RECOMMEND OR APPROVE OUR TIRES FOR TRAILER USE. WE DO NOT MAKE ST TIRES.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action
......I installed the 3” lift kit on our 13 31’ Classic..now have 20,000 some miles on it ..coast to coast..got back last fall from Nova Scotia...7200 miles..and I see or feel any difference in the towing..except the back end does not drag any more...also installed 16” michelins...with no warranty...no worries about a failure...not a st tire? What is the difference?...on my big trucks and trailers...steer tires are run on the trailers....more marketing hype...and I will not ever run any more Chinese tires...the endurance might be fine for 2 years...20,000 miles R&R....the michelins..4-5 years if you don’t run over anything in the road..
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