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Old 08-29-2020, 09:32 AM   #41
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Very good advice. I keep my speed below 65. Mostly 55-60. We do use Interstate byways, but prefer more local routes. More a question of how much time we have

I made few changes to reduce my tongue weight. I changed out the 30 lb tanks for 20 lb tanks. Took the spare and moved to a roof carry basket. Next step is to change out batteries for lithium. May move them to the back of the trailer. We also pack and measure tongue weight so we can move it up and down with moving where I store my generator. My loaded weight is 6500 +/-. When I have the batteries changed, I will put the 30 lb tanks back on. I do not need that much gas until next spring. For now, the 2 - 20's have plenty. No heating, just refer and occasionally my Honda generator.

My hitch was factory installed. However, I am considering the CanAm hitch modification. I just need to confirm warrantee issues. Other than on this web page, I have not had anyone tell me it voids my warrantee.

Adding it all up, I am investing a total of less than $8K. A lot of money, no doubt, but if it saves me having to have a second vehicle, that is much more expensive
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Old 08-29-2020, 09:06 PM   #42
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Thank you for the link, Collyn. Where does this statement come from? "A tyre’s cornering power decreases with load and increases with tyre pressure." A link for you: https://www.windingroad.com/articles...ire-pressures/

I truly am confused. In road racing, load on a tire increases grip. Weight transfer and managing slip angles is pretty much the core of the exercise. More weight on a tire gives more grip. Less weight gives less grip. Ask anyone who has spun a 911 in a turn because they lifted throttle. Or why do not think they put wings creating downforce on race cars? It's for increased grip in corners; it slows them on the straights because of the extra drag.

As to tire pressure, there is a tire pressure for optimum grip and for optimum turn in. See the link. But you will also see that at some point increased inflation will reduce grip. In fact, race cars use quite low inflation pressures to keep the tire surface compliant in order to enhance its contact with the tarmac.

Increased rear pressures make sense to me if you want more load carrying capability and reduced temperature at speed. More grip? I don't see how unless the tire cannot handle the load put on it in the first place. If you follow your manufacturer's inflation recommendations in a vehicle capable of towing, that should never be.
You are misquoting from my article. You have left out the vital 'linear' relationship:

It reads 'Footprint grip is not linear with imposed weight. When cornering, weight transferred on the (outer) tyres increases their cornering power. It does so, however, by only 0.8 or so of that increase in grip.'

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Old 08-30-2020, 07:38 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Collyn View Post
You are misquoting from my article. You have left out the vital 'linear' relationship:

It reads 'Footprint grip is not linear with imposed weight. When cornering, weight transferred on the (outer) tyres increases their cornering power. It does so, however, by only 0.8 or so of that increase in grip.'

Collyn
Thank you, Collyn. My quote from your article is not a misquote. It is what you wrote and it conflicts with what you just wrote. It also appeared to be the justification of your higher rear tire pressure recommendation. Increased corning power with more load is not my question. My question is why you and others recommend higher rear tire pressures when towing. Your article says that corning ability of a tire decreases with load and increases with tire pressure. In my experience both statements are wrong. So, why the higher pressure recommendation?
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Old 08-30-2020, 10:33 AM   #44
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expected weight

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Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
With Weight distribution, the Touareg won't have an axle load issue till about 900 lb on the tongue.
I a use a Sherline tongue weight scale to check. I make adjustment in how I store and carry items. I have been able to keep the TW below 800 lbs. Typically, my trailer is 6300-6500 lbs loaded. When on the road, I check the full loaded weight of trailer and TV. I fill my fresh water tank before I head out. We are still learning. I will have the Pro Pride installed before my next trip.

Bottom line - I have the weights within parameters of my Touareg. I am over is the 616 Tongue Weight limit. It was previously listed at 770 (which is 10% of the tow weight). From the most recommendation, with the Pro Pride, I will be fine.

The other 2 future adjustments are the Battery change to lighter Lithium, possibly install in the rear compartment rather than forward box, and the CanAm hitch modification they do on Touareg tow vehicles.

Ed
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Old 09-08-2020, 10:56 PM   #45
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Never install a WDH unless essential. They have no plusses as such.
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Old 09-08-2020, 11:58 PM   #46
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Weight distribution hitch match to trailer

Then I guess WD, properly adjusted to my rig’s loading is actually essential.

Without it, SWMBO gets seasick from the porpoising that results from taking too much load off the TV front axle, and I get really lousy steering and directional control.

With it properly adjusted all is stable, even in extreme maneuvers which include braking hard enough to smoke all eight tires, hard swerves, and maddening downtown Phoenix, Arizona traffic...total lack of sway with the ProPride system is another plus!
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Old 09-09-2020, 06:20 AM   #47
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Then I guess WD, properly adjusted to my rig’s loading is actually essential.

Without it, SWMBO gets seasick from the porpoising that results from taking too much load off the TV front axle, and I get really lousy steering and directional control.

With it properly adjusted all is stable, even in extreme maneuvers which include braking hard enough to smoke all eight tires, hard swerves, and maddening downtown Phoenix, Arizona traffic...total lack of sway with the ProPride system is another plus!
...the world is upside down where WD non-use proclamation came from.

Not many AS's have a TW that won't require WD with the TV's that many folks have chosen.
Let those that advise the non-use do so, I choose to use, as many do.
We have experienced no negatives in 34yrs of use.

BTW...SWMBO rules, and wouldn't drive w/o WD.👍

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Old 09-09-2020, 09:33 AM   #48
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Yup. Peace and quiet on the “flight deck” is priceless. Control and prevention of porpoising means she can nap peacefully while I drive.
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Old 09-09-2020, 09:58 AM   #49
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This thread is amusing in a soap opera kind of way. I don't want to check in and read it every day, but I fear I'll miss something important if I don't. But in the end, nothing really happens and I've wasted a perfectly good coffee break.

That being said, the owner manual for my 2020 GMC says (and I paraphrase here...) that WD is not needed for any load up to the maximum trailer weight rating of the truck. However, if I really want, I can dial in 25% FALR.

As a scientist, I like to experiment. So I did. My truck is capable of towing my trailer without WD bars engaged. But the bouncing and porpoising and jiggling makes for a rough ride. Adding 5" of tension on my ProPride gives me close to 25% FALR and makes the ride so much more enjoyable. In fact, the truck feels about the same as it does unloaded when I do so. So maybe I don't need WD, but it sure gives me some farfegnugen when I do. I think you'd be crazy to not dial in some WD for the comfort factor alone.
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Old 09-09-2020, 10:05 AM   #50
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Yup. Peace and quiet on the “flight deck” is priceless. Control and prevention of porpoising means she can nap peacefully while I drive.
Or....I can while she does.👍

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Old 09-09-2020, 04:29 PM   #51
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I wish. Some day I need to teach DW how to drive the rig in an emergency, but for now I’m the designated command pilot.
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Old 09-09-2020, 05:41 PM   #52
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I wish. Some day I need to teach DW how to drive the rig in an emergency, but for now I’m the designated command pilot.
Me too, but my DW will not even consider it.
Only once did she drive my truck solo when I needed medical assistance.

If I don't use WD while towing, and also add air pressure to the rear tires, in addition to having an uncomfortable ride I could't drive after dark. The headlights would be shining in the treetops.
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Old 09-12-2020, 01:21 PM   #53
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This thread is amusing in a soap opera kind of way. I don't want to check in and read it every day, but I fear I'll miss something important if I don't. But in the end, nothing really happens and I've wasted a perfectly good coffee break.

That being said, the owner manual for my 2020 GMC says (and I paraphrase here...) that WD is not needed for any load up to the maximum trailer weight rating of the truck. However, if I really want, I can dial in 25% FALR.

As a scientist, I like to experiment. So I did. My truck is capable of towing my trailer without WD bars engaged. But the bouncing and porpoising and jiggling makes for a rough ride. Adding 5" of tension on my ProPride gives me close to 25% FALR and makes the ride so much more enjoyable. In fact, the truck feels about the same as it does unloaded when I do so. So maybe I don't need WD, but it sure gives me some farfegnugen when I do. I think you'd be crazy to not dial in some WD for the comfort factor alone.
Yeah poor Collyn, I'm sure he is a very competent engineer and physicist, but if you never get out into the real world and try things, you tend to get tunnel vision. The math and models tend to focus on the boundaries, limits and the gotchas and miss the performance improvements that occur in the sweet spots. The models don't typically measure ride quality, suspension travel, steering feel and response , chassis acceleration and other comfort parameters so its easy to understand his mindset.

In your case while the 3500 is plenty capable without WD, since you're hauling a light trailer compared to the vehicle capacity you can go all the way to 100% FARL without compromising cornering stability to any degree so you may want to see how more WD feels, I think you will find it even nicer. Consider a bit more pressure in the rear tires also.
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Old 09-12-2020, 06:14 PM   #54
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jaybauman, please read my signature below.
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Caution! Most advice given here is nothing more than a subjective opinion. Please reference the vehicles owner manual for instruction on towing and hitch use which is based on physics, facts, and research.
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Old 09-12-2020, 06:26 PM   #55
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In your case while the 3500 is plenty capable without WD, since you're hauling a light trailer compared to the vehicle capacity you can go all the way to 100% FARL without compromising cornering stability to any degree so you may want to see how more WD feels, I think you will find it even nicer. Consider a bit more pressure in the rear tires also.
When I said I like to experiment, I meant it. I realize that I can add as much or as little WD as I want to with my TV and I'll be OK. I played with the whole gamut adjustability from 0" to ~10" on my ProPride. The halfway point gives the nicest ride, so I keep it there. Of course, that was using 80psi in the trailer tires. I haven't taken the time to see if it feels any different running 60psi in the Endurances.

I already run 80psi in my TV rear tires. What benefit would I get going beyond GM's recommendation?
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Old 09-12-2020, 07:01 PM   #56
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Jay, if you're already running 80 psi, on what I assume is an E load range tire then there is no benefit in going more. I am bit surprised that 5 inches of deflection is only 25% FALR, did you measure that on the truck scales? That would imply 10 inches would only return 50% but perhaps your bars are lower tension than I was expecting, because I have about 4.5 inches deflection on my Blue Ox bars and get 100% FALR (1300 lb tension) Anyway if you found 5 inches gave you 25% FALR and the best ride that is interesting and surprising to hear, I would not have predicted that.

I run 58-60 on my trailer mostly to reduce vibration that beats up the trailer and content. It does also reduce cornering so in an emergency the trailer will slip a bit and help reduce tow vehicle oversteer. It will increase sway tendency a bit but for me and you especially that is not an issue. It also increases risk of catastrophic tire failure just a bit so consider that.
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Old 09-12-2020, 10:04 PM   #57
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Jay, if you're already running 80 psi, on what I assume is an E load range tire then there is no benefit in going more. I am bit surprised that 5 inches of deflection is only 25% FALR, did you measure that on the truck scales? That would imply 10 inches would only return 50% but perhaps your bars are lower tension than I was expecting, because I have about 4.5 inches deflection on my Blue Ox bars and get 100% FALR (1300 lb tension) Anyway if you found 5 inches gave you 25% FALR and the best ride that is interesting and surprising to hear, I would not have predicted that.

I run 58-60 on my trailer mostly to reduce vibration that beats up the trailer and content. It does also reduce cornering so in an emergency the trailer will slip a bit and help reduce tow vehicle oversteer. It will increase sway tendency a bit but for me and you especially that is not an issue. It also increases risk of catastrophic tire failure just a bit so consider that.

If we assume Hooke's Law is valid for spring bar deflection (I'm an electrochemical engineer, not a mechanical engineer--it's been a long time since P1 class...) then I would guess that FALR would scale linearly with displacement. In your model above, you assumed an intercept of zero. In the ProPride, the offset is some nonzero value, as I have to raise the jacks a few inches before everything is lined up and starts compressing my spring bars. I've never measured this slack, but let's assume it's 2.5". That would give me 50% FALR at 7.5" and 75% at 10". My values are just SWAG at this point.

I have, however, confirmed on the CAT scales (3-pass procedure) that I get 25% FALR with somewhere in the 5" to 5.5" range in my 2020 GMC 3500HD. Not apples-to-apples...but the CAT scales confirmed ~50% FALR for 7.5" with my 2015 GMC 2500HD (same trailer, same hitch, but different receiver height means the angles are all slightly different--even though I set the draw bar height as close as I could between the 2 trailers. Only the adjustment resolution (1.5" increments) kept me from the same height with both trucks.

This is a fun academic exercise, but only because I'm so far away from the boundary conditions with my rig. My FC30 GVWR is 8800lbs and my truck is rated to carry 20,000lbs "on the ball". I keep trailer tires and rear TV tires inflated to the recommended maximum of 80psi. My max speed is 65mph, and even slower in the rain. I'm not all bothered by potential oversteer with my setup.

I am greatly bothered by how little many (most?) TT owners know about these things. In a perfect world, the TV sales folks would understand the concepts and educate their customers, and the RV sales folks would do the same. I really don't think the issue is "anything to get the sale", but rather it has everything to do with ignorance on their part. But that's just my opinion based on what I have observed.
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Old 09-13-2020, 07:14 AM   #58
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If you purchase your TV from a store with a lot of white on the lot they tend to be more 'educated' about weights, limits and such. AMHIK

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Old 09-14-2020, 08:01 PM   #59
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Yeah poor Collyn, I'm sure he is a very competent engineer and physicist, but if you never get out into the real world and try things, you tend to get tunnel vision. The math and models tend to focus on the boundaries, limits and the gotchas and miss the performance improvements that occur in the sweet spots. The models don't typically measure ride quality, suspension travel, steering feel and response , chassis acceleration and other comfort parameters so its easy to understand his mindset.

In your case while the 3500 is plenty capable without WD, since you're hauling a light trailer compared to the vehicle capacity you can go all the way to 100% FARL without compromising cornering stability to any degree so you may want to see how more WD feels, I think you will find it even nicer. Consider a bit more pressure in the rear tires also.
What on earth causes you to suggest I have never been out in the 'real world' of working in the area of trailer stability?.

I not only have been but was doing so in my capacity of a (then) automobile research engineer in any only too-real trailer stability testing capacity at the UK's then MIRA testing area.

This involved towing with the tow vehicle fitted with wheeled outriggers while actually causing the trailer to overturn.

Re your 'The models don't typically measure ride quality, suspension travel, steering feel and response , chassis acceleration and other comfort parameters' so its easy to understand his mindset.

What models? We (at GM UK Research) were using production tow vehicles, but trailers that were designed to mimic real-life 'travel trailers' in every dynamic respect. Real caravans were rarely used for obvious reasons.

Re 'physicist' - I am not one and have never suggested otherwise.

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Old 09-15-2020, 04:37 AM   #60
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Collyn did your real world testing ever involve US vehicles rated to tow 8,000-20,000 lb but towing trailers 50-75% the vehicle capacity with a modern WD anti-sway hitch using various tension settings?
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