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11-06-2017, 09:00 AM
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#41
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Vancouver
, British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franklyfrank
An Airstream trailer is not a Unibody Construction . Its a Shell on Frame.
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Agreed, not unitized construction.
Semi-monocoque. The shell is in tension, not compression. The strength comes from the combination of the frame and shell.
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11-06-2017, 12:04 PM
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#42
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Rivet Master
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor
, New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl
Agreed, not unitized construction.
Semi-monocoque. The shell is in tension, not compression. The strength comes from the combination of the frame and shell.
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Exactly!
Which is why Airstream approves only the Fiamma bike carrier, because of how it ties into the exterior body, thus distributing the weight more evenly than the point load of a hitch-based assembly resting only on the very back edge of the hitch receiver tube.
If the frame of the Airstream is not designed for this load way aft, the bouncing of the bikes, while traveling, will most likely cause some damage at some point.
Structural limits -- when exceeded -- seldom show up in catastrophic failure, but rather they materialize over time, often subtly at first with things like stressed/popped rivets.
Anyone who wants to subject his or her AS to excessive destructive forces . . . feel free!
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11-07-2017, 05:39 AM
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#43
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ObviouslyKnot
Currently Looking...
KAILUA
, HI
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 862
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98 rivets, holding the shell, 98 rivets the shell, mount The bikes, drive the course, 97 rivets holding the shell . . .
__________________
James Mileur, HY80-2-Al,
2017 Classic Twin, 2016 RAM 3500 Megacab, ProPride hitch
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11-07-2017, 08:51 AM
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#44
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Rivet Master
2017 30' Classic
Anna Maria
, Florida
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTRA15
Exactly!
Which is why Airstream approves only the Fiamma bike carrier, because of how it ties into the exterior body, thus distributing the weight more evenly than the point load of a hitch-based assembly resting only on the very back edge of the hitch receiver tube.
If the frame of the Airstream is not designed for this load way aft, the bouncing of the bikes, while traveling, will most likely cause some damage at some point.
Structural limits -- when exceeded -- seldom show up in catastrophic failure, but rather they materialize over time, often subtly at first with things like stressed/popped rivets.
Anyone who wants to subject his or her AS to excessive destructive forces . . . feel free!
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Four screws into thin aluminium doesn't exactly give me the feeling of "Solid" support.
Airstream approves the Fiamma bike rack because they and their dealers sell it and get a good buck for it.
The suggestion even by Airstream that an addition of an extra 100 lbs of weight on the rear end of a AS frame will destroy it and make it an unsafe tow is ridiculous. As I stated before if their product is that flimsy they are guilty of criminal negligence for selling them. That is nothing but common sense.
If they are that flimsy we better stay of half the roads we travel on.
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11-07-2017, 10:47 AM
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#45
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Registered User
2011 28' Flying Cloud
Farmington
, Connecticut
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 29
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When I made the decision to add my hitch receiver, my research showed most of the people who did have a hitch receiver installed had no problems, and loved doing so. Someone posted here a few years ago that they asked a technician at the mother ship who said an airstream is plenty strong to handle the weight out the back, same as what George told me. What an airstream dealer would say on the other hand, would mean no more than a car salesman to me.
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11-07-2017, 10:49 AM
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#46
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Vancouver
, British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franklyfrank
Four screws into thin aluminium doesn't exactly give me the feeling of "Solid" support.
Airstream approves the Fiamma bike rack because they and their dealers sell it and get a good buck for it.
The suggestion even by Airstream that an addition of an extra 100 lbs of weight on the rear end of a AS frame will destroy it and make it an unsafe tow is ridiculous. As I stated before if their product is that flimsy they are guilty of criminal negligence for selling them. That is nothing but common sense.
If they are that flimsy we better stay of half the roads we travel on.
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You are missing the point if you focus only on the weight and the small screws.
Unconstrained, the bikes (and rack) can bounce up and down (made worse by the distance from the trailer axle) and shift fore and aft. A small amount of movement in those directions translates into a twisting force at the bottom of the shell. It is just like how you can break a piece of wire with your hands if you just bend it back and forth a little, many times. Same concept.
The Airstream rack isn't supported vertically by the top mounts, those mounts have a pin connection. It is supported fore and aft, to stop that small but continuous movement.
There are other racks that use the same principle if you don't like the Airstream one.
This is aside from the issues relating to applying additional weight at the maximum possible distance from the centre of rotation, impacting rotational inertia, and potentially impacting sway.
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11-08-2017, 02:45 AM
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#47
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Rivet Master
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor
, New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
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Well said, jcl. Thanks.
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11-08-2017, 03:08 PM
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#48
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3 Rivet Member
1975 27' Overlander
Galena
, Illinois
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 172
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Very interesting replies-campers. Buying a Fiamma bike rack is stock equipment and often the safest route. I had cut down the stem of my bike rack to keep it as close to the rear as possible. Also the air craft scientists that have determined it is of great stress that I put my AS under, are in fact correct. After arriving home I had noticed one of the blue stripe lines was only being held by one rivet. It is in fact true what they say about the bouncing of the bikes causing rivets to pop however, for a couple of hundred dollars, I'm having all the damaged rivets replaced so my trailer is back up to par. Now lets weigh in on my choice. It"s a 1975 trailer most of which are junk by now. While I spent some money on rivet repair I did not have to rent bikes at The Fisherman's Wharf, Yosemite, Sequoia, Huntington Beach, Port Townsend,Troutville, and on and on. I believe that making the choice I did, I did and saw more than others that may have done the same trip. I believe there was a total of 12 rivets that broke over 8,000 miles. Life has offered me many choices and I usually don't follow the crowd. I learned this year after I left that campsites fill up 7 months in advance. What! So when you see a photo of an AS next to a river or in a field with no picnic table or by itself in the desert looking like cousin Eddy, that was me not conforming. Protect your investment the way you want to live your life. Decide and don't look back. Have fun either way.
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11-09-2017, 06:51 AM
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#49
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Rivet Master
2017 30' Classic
Anna Maria
, Florida
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl
You are missing the point if you focus only on the weight and the small screws.
Unconstrained, the bikes (and rack) can bounce up and down (made worse by the distance from the trailer axle) and shift fore and aft. A small amount of movement in those directions translates into a twisting force at the bottom of the shell. It is just like how you can break a piece of wire with your hands if you just bend it back and forth a little, many times. Same concept.
The Airstream rack isn't supported vertically by the top mounts, those mounts have a pin connection. It is supported fore and aft, to stop that small but continuous movement.
There are other racks that use the same principle if you don't like the Airstream one.
This is aside from the issues relating to applying additional weight at the maximum possible distance from the centre of rotation, impacting rotational inertia, and potentially impacting sway.
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Here you go again using those big words.
You need to simplify things for dumb a**es like me.
You could have simply stated " you got to keep that thing from swinging back and forth dummy".
You are assuming two things. One is that only the Fiamma bike rack keeps bikes from moving back and forth and that everyone deciding to go a different route is ignorant and slaps bike racks on the back of their AS willy nilly and can't think for themselves..
You prefer the Fiamma go for it. Don't assume that that is only only way to do it safely.
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11-09-2017, 09:57 AM
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#50
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Vancouver
, British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franklyfrank
Here you go again using those big words.
You need to simplify things for dumb a**es like me.
You could have simply stated " you got to keep that thing from swinging back and forth dummy".
You are assuming two things. One is that only the Fiamma bike rack keeps bikes from moving back and forth and that everyone deciding to go a different route is ignorant and slaps bike racks on the back of their AS willy nilly and can't think for themselves..
You prefer the Fiamma go for it. Don't assume that that is only only way to do it safely.
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You got to keep that rack from swinging back and forth at the top. Whether the bikes move separately from the rack relates to whether the bikes get banged up, not to the loads applied to where the shell joins the frame.
The only ignorance is in not appreciating how the loads and relative movement can impact that joint.
No need to use the Fiamma rack, IMO, if you don’t like it, as long as you design and install the top struts to stop that rack from moving back and forth. It is important to consider how the loads are transferred, not to specify a brand, again IMO.
I wasn’t trying to use big words. I even included an analogy to bending a coat hangar back and forth many times to break it, for those who consider the best answer for a fatigue problem is to take a nap.
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11-14-2017, 08:29 PM
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#51
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Stay CazuaL
2018 25' Flying Cloud
2014 19' Flying Cloud
Reseda
, California
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 959
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Full disclosure. I have successfully used a bike mount as on my previous posts. I put two kids bikes only.
The concern is being back heavy and will cause sway.
As a concerned AS owner, I would urge you to not go this route unless you really know what you are doing.
Whatever you decide, stay safe. If you are unsure, don't do it.
Good luck. I say good luck only because I have a feeling you are gonna do what you want to do regardless what is said.
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11-14-2017, 08:32 PM
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#52
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UnklJoe
2015 28' Flying Cloud
Box Elder
, South Dakota
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 101
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This Looks Interesting....
Have a look at this:
I wrote to the author, and he sent me an email with some more photo's and a sketch with dimensions for his trailer--which should be useful for many Airstreams. Very helpful guy.
I haven't tackled this yet, but I plan to this winter/spring. I will be using one of those receiver stabilizers, and will be looking for a bike rack that doesn't hang too far out.
Hope this helps!!!
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11-15-2017, 12:51 AM
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#53
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Rivet Master
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor
, New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnklJoe
Have a look at this:
. . .
I haven't tackled this yet, but I plan to this winter/spring. I will be using one of those receiver stabilizers, and will be looking for a bike rack that doesn't hang too far out.
. . .
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I hope you have read this entire thread, as well as the threads linked in Post #3. Previous discussions have gone into considerable detail on why the rack you just posted is beyond Airstream's specs for its trailers, and could easily cause out-of-control-sway, and severe damage to person and property.
[click on arrow in quote to go directly to Post #3 -- see later posts for adjusted weight limit]
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTRA15
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From the Quebec roll-over thread:
Good luck,
Peter
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11-15-2017, 07:46 AM
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#54
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Rivet Master
2017 30' Classic
Anna Maria
, Florida
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl
You got to keep that rack from swinging back and forth at the top. Whether the bikes move separately from the rack relates to whether the bikes get banged up, not to the loads applied to where the shell joins the frame.
The only ignorance is in not appreciating how the loads and relative movement can impact that joint.
No need to use the Fiamma rack, IMO, if you don’t like it, as long as you design and install the top struts to stop that rack from moving back and forth. It is important to consider how the loads are transferred, not to specify a brand, again IMO.
I wasn’t trying to use big words. I even included an analogy to bending a coat hangar back and forth many times to break it, for those who consider the best answer for a fatigue problem is to take a nap.
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Here you go again pontificating. What makes you think that someone savvy enough to go their own way is not aware of keeping the bike rack from swaying. It is a most elementary issue. And there are a number of other more secure ways to accomplish that than screwing the stabilizer struts into thin aluminium. The two factors that made decide against the Fiamma was having to screw the struts into the body and not having the flexibility to remove and use it on the TV.
Not to mention that it looks like a laundry drying rack on the back of the AS.
I have had my set up for 5 years and the coat hanger is still holding the bike rack in place just fine.
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11-15-2017, 10:04 AM
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#55
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UnklJoe
2015 28' Flying Cloud
Box Elder
, South Dakota
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 101
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When I started in the Harley-Davidson world, where sentiments among many people are very similar to what is expressed many places here on AIRForums: the OEM is gospel, I spent a lot of money on H-D parts and accessories and having them installed by the dealer, until I realized it's just a motorcycle. (As my wife will tell anyone: Buying a Harley is just making a down payment on the accessories.) After a while, I started using third-party parts and accessories, and installing them myself, and then for my friends--and none of our motorcycles came apart or suffered any reliability issues. I had more money to spend on parts and accessories, and I enjoyed working on my bikes and my friends' bikes.
So, I'm not surprised to see another American icon of manufacturing having devoted followers with the same sentiments--but based on some of the replies here, some are MORE stubborn than even crusty bikers (who for the most part are 'live and let live' even if they have their own opinion (and many have their own strong and heartfelt opinions on most everything--they just recognize everyone else's right to their opinion)).
I worked for another (former) major American icon of manufacturing and I know first-hand about just how expensive and involved testing and qualification of third-party parts and accessories can be. Yes, it seems arrogant to just say, "Don't use ANY third-party parts and accessories," or, "Only use THESE approved third-party parts and accessories." But, honestly, the cost involved in testing and qualification of every part and accessory out there is just prohibitive, and if anyone would think about it when complaining about the OEM's stance would come to the same conclusion.
Certainly, having a lot of weight hanging out over the back of the trailer, AND if it not prevented from swaying, represents a risk. But, really, two bikes of average weight on a firm mount can't be that destructive to an Airstream (in my case, an FC27). And, as long as I'm aware the bikes are back there and I load my trailer and tow vehicle (a RAM 3500 4WD) properly, and I drive in accordance with conditions.
The Fiamma rack would severely limit access to the rear storage on my trailer, and I, too, really don't like the attachment method to the skin of the trailer. There are several threads on this forum about broken mounts and torn skin. It's not something I would do on consideration of the alternatives.
I have adopted two quips from AIRForums. First, "You can't reason a person out of a position he hasn't reasoned himself into," and, "Your mileage may vary." I appreciate the admonitions and sentiments of everyone on every topic here this forum, but I do think many people are way too opinionated--not that having an opinion is bad, it's just not using one's critical thinking skills to reason through that opinion and then getting into heated discussions that's bad.
If I find my experiment increases the white-knuckle factor while traveling with my bikes, I will consider it a lesson learned and discontinue hauling my bikes with this set-up. At this point, I'm a newbie and I appreciate all inputs and opinions and experiences--and I also believe that my mileage will vary. I will try to remember to post back next summer when I have my own personal experience on this particular method.
In the meantime, can we all just share--and enjoy our trailers and the camaraderie it affords us all? There's a saying from the Harley world: Live to ride; Ride to live. The important things are riding and living.
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11-15-2017, 10:40 AM
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#56
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Rivet Master
2012 27' Flying Cloud
W
, New England
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,402
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UnklJoe - hi and welcome. I can agree with a large portion of your sentiment and would only add that there are people who've been there/done that who can explain to you why the idea may not be ideal. Sure you can test it for yourself and maybe you'll even overcome both the separation and sway issues others who've done this have reported - but the potential for unintended negative consequences is pretty high here so my $0.02 would be to fully absorb that information and the why behind it before embarking on your plan. Not that you can't/shouldn't do it - but you may want to overcome the flaws in prior approaches with some level of confidence before testing the same flawed systems.
Good luck!
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11-15-2017, 01:16 PM
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#57
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Registered User
2011 28' Flying Cloud
Farmington
, Connecticut
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 29
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UnklJoe. The video mirrors what George did on my trailer. I am 2 years into using it with no sway or damage to my trailer. I also installed a custom mattress that probably weighs 3 times as much as the stock item, and the sky has yet to fall. The experience that Cazual6 had is real world experience, and would be very helpful for someone with a trailer that size. Lots of hearsay otherwise on this subject
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11-16-2017, 08:39 AM
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#58
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Rivet Master
2017 30' Classic
Anna Maria
, Florida
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveSueMac
UnklJoe - hi and welcome. I can agree with a large portion of your sentiment and would only add that there are people who've been there/done that who can explain to you why the idea may not be ideal. Sure you can test it for yourself and maybe you'll even overcome both the separation and sway issues others who've done this have reported - but the potential for unintended negative consequences is pretty high here so my $0.02 would be to fully absorb that information and the why behind it before embarking on your plan. Not that you can't/shouldn't do it - but you may want to overcome the flaws in prior approaches with some level of confidence before testing the same flawed systems.
Good luck!
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This is the kind of post that really gets under my skin.
I have designed fabricated and installed my own bike carrier system on a 30' AS. Used it on a 2013 for 4 years and on my 2017 30' Classic close to another year. The entire setup weighs a bit over 120 LBS and I simply stabilized it with a machined to size receiver. It doesn't sway bob or anything. I generally travel at 72 MPH on interstates when weather and traffic conditions allow. I travel through Chicago, Atlanta, Miami regularly where maneuvering is challenging and had my share of emergency maneuvers without and sway issues whatso ever. And I don't use a ProPride or a Hensley. I use a Blue Ox.
So I can confidently state that there are other very safe ways to tackle the bike Rack issue as I have proven it over 5 years o use.
I don't have an ax to grind I am not into selling anything. I am relating real world experience for others to draw on.For you the keep saying But, But, But is down right ignorant. Had I experienced one scary moment with my installation it would have been removed pronto.
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01-07-2018, 04:25 PM
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#59
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1 Rivet Member
2007 23' Safari SE
Derby
, Vermont
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying tulip
Make sure you get advice from people with real world experience, and not just an opinion. George and Nomad airstream in Plattsburgh NY said no problem
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By way of a belated update, as I iust came across your post while doing a separate search here on "Airstream University", Nomad was shut down by the bank last spring (2017). The owners, Steven Clement and Guillaume Langevin fled back to Montreal just ahead of a slew of angry creditors, including the State of New York (back taxes) and me ($10,000; $5000 was on a credit card and written off by the credit card company). They were actively trolling for funds right up until the last minute. Last I heard, they were trying to set up a similar scam in the Montreal area, so caveat emptor.
And again filed under "buyer beware", my repairs were eventually done by another outfit in Plattsburgh, NOT Colin Hyde. Those repairs cost more than 50% over estimate, due to labor for "unforeseen difficulties" (3 previous labor estimates by the same "experienced" crew were remarkably consistent at 2/3 the final cost). When all was done and paid for, the seams above the replaced roadside window leaked like a sieve to boot
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11-11-2018, 11:18 AM
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#60
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New Member
2018 Basecamp
Winston-Salem
, North Carolina
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 3
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Anyone solve the issue for a Basecamp for ability to carry some bikes? I looked at an a-frame option called Stonmberg Carlson Bike Bunk Trailer that adds a receiver mount above the propane tanks. Anyone try this option - concerned about clearance in the front and added tongue weight. Anyone else try a custom installed receiver hitch on the back of the trailer?
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