Reese Dual Cam Set Up...

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by norsea

The temperature here finally broke and we have been under 100 degrees for the past several days. I took advantage of this and got the the 600 pound trunnion (spring) bars installed. The first thing I discovered is that the bars are significantly shorter than the other bars I had been using. This caused me to change the adjustments on the sway control units so they "fit" the new bars; by more than an inch.

We then headed for the scales by way of a cul de sac where I was able to watch the action of the hitch as my wife drove around the circle. Needless to say the hitch was pushed to its extreme operating positions as far as the degree of the turn; we came close to jack knifing things but made it.

My first observation is that had we tried this with the old bars we would NOT have made it. I think tight turns were causing the sway units to bend with the old bars. Not only are the old bars longer, they are wider as well at the tips where they rest atop the sway control units. With these narrower bars there was more room for them to move laterally as well as length wise as we went around. The narrow bars allowed for more freedom at extreme angles when the bars tend to twist when extended to the end of the bar over the sway control. Because they are narrower they had more room in the sway control as the angle become more acute.

From here we headed to the scales. Sames exact weights as posted in the first message of this tread.

The ONLY difference with this set up is that the top of the hitch on the trailer is now 19" (19.75 previously) off the ground and I have been able to take off one more link on the pull up chains for the spring bars.

The BIG difference with these bars is that there is absolutely no way I can take off any more links on the chains. The pull up bracket is rotated so it is full down when the chains are attached. It is physically impossible for me to physically pull the bars up further in order to reduce the number of links and thereby increase the tension on the bars. Please note that this was done with the trailer tongue jack raised to its absolute highest position in order to make the "pull up" process as easy as possible.

As for the ride. I notice that it is not as "stiff" as when we used the other bars. I do not know how to quantify this; it is very subjective and based totally on feel. I do notice that the rebound action of the shocks on the rear of the truck seems to have more action now than previously when they tended to not react much to surface irregularities. I hope this makes sense.

Any rate, I think my problems are solved.

Here are the photos from the scale.

Thanks for your post.

Now you have a nice bend in the bars for better control.

Now you have some bounce, which means a softer ride.

Now you state that the ride is more comfortable.

Now, I can say, I told you, I told you and I told you.

I just wish others would heed the warnings and would do what you have done.

Question??

Can we now say that your "much more" of a happy camper?

I think you also are a good witness to the fact that the chart that Reese has published, is full of prunes, along with the music they preach as to what is correct, likewise, is full of prunes too.

The main thing is that you now can see and feel the difference as I told you would happen.

Perhaps with some posts, you can cultivate others to listen as well.

Thanks again.

Andy

[SafariSS]

Wow, that is some serious flex. I have the exact same hitch with a Safari 30/ 3/4 ton Suburban. While my trailer is very level I have a ever so slight lower in the rear suburban. I cannont really complain on the ride, it does however have some serious rebound that is hard to tell if it is caused by the hitch setup or the GM Autoride feature.

When I get my rig back from JC next week I will post some pics of my hitch geometry to see what others think.

[norsea]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

Thanks for your post.

<BIG SNIPPY>

Thanks again.

Andy

Andy I think it is I who owe you the thanks.

What I did not mention in my post is that I had installed a new street side sway control unit on the trailer before we went on a 350 mile (round trip) expedition; this is when I took the pictures in the first post of this thread.

When I started to adjust the street sway control to install the new spring bars I discovered that the threaded rod had been bent during our trip. The bend was just enough to prevent the nut from turning by hand after it had been loosened from the lock nut.

This is the fourth sway control rod that I have bent with the heavy duty trunnion bars. I installed the last one from the last pair I ordered and we went to the cul de sac so I could watch the hitch in action. I am convinced that the heavy duty spring bars were the problem after watching the hitch through this tight turning radius.

Any rate, I do want you to know that I really appreciate your responding to this thread and offering your wisdom; it sure has made the resolution of my problem much easier.

Thanks again,

Jim - who is off to his home made ice cream and fresh peaches for desert....

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by norsea

Andy I think it is I who owe you the thanks.

What I did not mention in my post is that I had installed a new street side sway control unit on the trailer before we went on a 350 mile (round trip) expedition; this is when I took the pictures in the first post of this thread.

When I started to adjust the street sway control to install the new spring bars I discovered that the threaded rod had been bent during our trip. The bend was just enough to prevent the nut from turning by hand after it had been loosened from the lock nut.

This is the fourth sway control rod that I have bent with the heavy duty trunnion bars. I installed the last one from the last pair I ordered and we went to the cul de sac so I could watch the hitch in action. I am convinced that the heavy duty spring bars were the problem after watching the hitch through this tight turning radius.

Any rate, I do want you to know that I really appreciate your responding to this thread and offering your wisdom; it sure has made the resolution of my problem much easier.

Thanks again,

Jim - who is off to his home made ice cream and fresh peaches for desert....

WHAT!!!

No whipped cream.

Darn.

And thank you, for the thanks.

Hopefully, through your efforts, maybe others will listen and join the new found ranks of a "real happy camper."

It's really very simple.

Get off the heavy duty everything wagons.

One of your peers, listened, and is now is enjoying worry free proper handling.

The real problem is that it's so easy to fix, that most people just seemingly can't get themselves to believe it.

Satisfied RV tower 1
Reese 0

Who else wants to join the band wagon?

Regards.

Andy

[slowmover]

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f238...-in-17984.html


At some point I would look through all the numbers:

1. TT Length, Hitch Ball Center to TT Rear Bumper:

2. TT Tongue Weight:

3. TT Hitch Center to Rear Axle Center:

4. TV wheelbase:

5. TV Rear Spring Capacity:

6. TV Rear Overhang (axle center to hitch center):

7. Length of bars:


A. TV Steer Axle, Solo:
[1] TV Steer Axle, Loaded:

B. TV Drive Axle, Solo:
[1] TV Steer Axle, Loaded:

C. TV Weight Bias, FF/RR, Solo:
[1] Loaded:

D. TV Weight, Solo, Gross:

E. TV Weight, Loaded, Gross:


F. TT, Tongue Weight:

G. TT, Axle Weight (all axles):

H. TT, Axle Weight (front):

I. TT, Axle Weight (rear):

J. [TT, Axle Weight (center):]


I. TV, FF, height, solo:

II. TV, FF, height, loaded:

III. TV, RR, height, solo:

IV. TV, RR, height, loaded:

V. TT, height (fenderwell), solo:

VI. TT, height (fenderwell), loaded:

The two dozen numbers can be useful for further tuning or understanding; ideally, one would also have all eight [8] INDIVIDUAL wheel weights (SRW TV and dual axle trailer) for weight biases FF/RR and side-to-side.

One may also use NickCrowhursts spreadsheet:
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...sis-19236.html

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by REDNAX

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f238...-in-17984.html


At some point I would look through all the numbers:

1. TT Length, Hitch Ball Center to TT Rear Bumper:

2. TT Tongue Weight:

3. TT Hitch Center to Rear Axle Center:

4. TV wheelbase:

5. TV Rear Spring Capacity:

6. TV Rear Overhang (axle center to hitch center):

7. Length of bars:


A. TV Steer Axle, Solo:
[1] TV Steer Axle, Loaded:

B. TV Drive Axle, Solo:
[1] TV Steer Axle, Loaded:

C. TV Weight Bias, FF/RR, Solo:
[1] Loaded:

D. TV Weight, Solo, Gross:

E. TV Weight, Loaded, Gross:


F. TT, Tongue Weight:

G. TT, Axle Weight (all axles):

H. TT, Axle Weight (front):

I. TT, Axle Weight (rear):

J. [TT, Axle Weight (center):]


I. TV, FF, height, solo:

II. TV, FF, height, loaded:

III. TV, RR, height, solo:

IV. TV, RR, height, loaded:

V. TT, height (fenderwell), solo:

VI. TT, height (fenderwell), loaded:

The two dozen numbers can be useful for further tuning or understanding; ideally, one would also have all eight [8] INDIVIDUAL wheel weights (SRW TV and dual axle trailer) for weight biases FF/RR and side-to-side.

One may also use NickCrowhursts spreadsheet:
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...sis-19236.html

That may be all well and good.

However, the vast majority of owners, won't get into that program, nor are they really interested in doing so.

The hitch manufacturers are not interested enough to do that research, based on the fact that that information would not be in agreement with what they have all preached for way to many years.

But, the vast majority of owners, we think, "are" interested in the simple "bottom line," as we have outlined numerous times.

But, no big name wants to step up to the plate to provide that simple bottom line, since it would clearly demonstrate the erroneous information that has been shoved on the general public, for way too many years.

As an example, the Reese chart is totally misleading, as some members have already so posted and agree with that statement.

Andy

[norsea]

Since changing to the 600 pound bars and readjusting the hitch we have traveled from Shady Cove, Oregon to Jackson Center, Ohio, then south to Anderson, South Carolina and back to Jackson Center where we will be for the next week getting the new cabinets installed in the front of our trailer.

We have only traveled I75 north from Dayton, Ohio to the Jackson Center turn off twice. All of the remainder of the trip has been on different roads that range from interstates to the steep, twisty, narrow roads of West Virgina.

This is the first time we have gone anywhere and NOT incurred damage to any of the hitch components. We be "happy campers"!

I would like to transfer an additional 200 pounds from the rear axle to the front axle.

I am concerned about increasing the load on the existing spring bars and wonder if it would be best to use 700 pound bars rather than the 600 pound bars. But, I have no way of knowing if the stiffer bars will in fact accomplish my goal without causing the problems we experienced initially when we were using the 1000 pound bars.

Anyone have any ideas?

Jim

[HowieE]

Originally Posted by norsea

This is the first time we have gone anywhere and NOT incurred damage to any of the hitch components.
Jim

What type of damage did you have in the hitch that you attribute to the bars.

[norsea]

Originally Posted by HowieE

What type of damage did you have in the hitch that you attribute to the bars.

See post number three...

Jim

[Shacksman]

Can someone tell us how to tell the weight rating of the bars? I don't see anything marked on the bar.

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by Shacksman

Can someone tell us how to tell the weight rating of the bars? I don't see anything marked on the bar.

Who is the manufacturer of your hitch bars?

Andy

[Shacksman]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

Who is the manufacturer of your hitch bars?

Andy

Andy, the bars are the dual cam bars. The heads have cast into them, Reese RL109.
They are 1 1/4" square where they enter the head and are 25" long from the head to the end.
There is the remains of a tag on the bars but unreadable.

Another set I have says "Quality s" cast into the head, same measurment.

[HowieE]

Originally Posted by norsea

See post number three...

Jim

Reese has lost any level of quality control with their products. The last two items I purchased retail I had to return directly to Reese for replacements.

A set of mounting plates for the cam arms were so poorly aligned that the bolts would not even pass through them let alone position the arms correctly. Even the replacements they sent were bad and I ended up rewelding the holes closed my old ones and drilling new holes and using them. Sent all 4 new plates back to Reese for credit.

I just installed the newer type cam system and one of the cam arms was so misaligned, by more than 15 degrees, causing the bar to ride high and off center to the point on minimal contact.

[norsea]

Originally Posted by HowieE

Reese has lost any level of quality control with their products. The last two items I purchased retail I had to return directly to Reese for replacements.

A set of mounting plates for the cam arms were so poorly aligned that the bolts would not even pass through them let alone position the arms correctly. Even the replacements they sent were bad and I ended up rewelding the holes closed my old ones and drilling new holes and using them. Sent all 4 new plates back to Reese for credit.

I just installed the newer type cam system and one of the cam arms was so misaligned, by more than 15 degrees, causing the bar to ride high and off center to the point on minimal contact.

I am happy to say that the equipment that was shipped to me had no such problems.

I continue to be curious as to how I can transfer two hundred pounds more from my rear axle to my front axle.

I had hoped that Andy might have some "words of wisdom" for me. I am very happy with the performace of the current set up. But, my rear axle weighs in 400 pounds heavier than the front axle.

Jim

[overlander63]

Jim, can you lower the ball height on the truck by an inch? That would move weight from the rear trailer axle to the front.

[HowieE]

Hi Jim

Well I went out and played around with the bars and I can see when and how it is possible to bend or brake the trailing arms on the newer Reese hitch.

On a turn the head of the inside bar moves in under the tongue and up off the cam causing the bar to become closer to the heavy casting part of the trailing arm. The fewer chain links used between the hanger and the cam the sooner the bar will contact the heavy casting. At the point the bar and casting come in contact, this is greater if the hitch point is dropped with lower than TV and trailer as in a slight valley, at which time there would be extreme force applied to the cam end of the trailing arm forcing it outwards. I assume when you saw a bend in one of your trailing arms the bend was outwards at the end of the trailing arm.

The easy cure would be to increase the number of links between the hanger and the cam thus increasing the angle between the bars and the trailing arm. This increase would reduce the potential contact. Yes head angle adjustment would also be required to maintain proper front axle load.

If increasing the number of chains links is not possible grinding some relief on the bottom edge of the casting would work. There is more than enough material there to allow some removal.

I have posted 2 pictures. The first shows the relationship of the bar to the trailing arm. There is clearance between them. The second shows how the bar has moved in,during a turn, to a point of contact with the trailing arm casting.

The correct solution would be for Reese to rotate the casting 90 degrees greatly decreasing the potential contact point. This would also require them to drop the bolt point holding the trailing arm to the frame to give frame clearance to the casting.

I am going to have to hook up find a gully and do a 90 degree back up across that gully to see how close my bars come to the casting. From my playing around it doesn't look like I would make it across a deep gully while backing into a campsite without contacting the casting.

[LI Pets]

Howie, not sure in the pic, but is the chain point to point verticle?

Also a while back I had Resse tech support on the phone and this guy who sounded very knowledgeable said you should always strive for 5 links no more no less.

I did that by the adjustments and went over 20,000 miles since.

[norsea]

Overlander63, HowieE & LIPets,

First, as to changing the angle of the ball. Yes, I had it set with more rearward angle when I first put on the 600 pound bars. This gave me two things I wanted and one I did not want. The first was more weight transfer to the front axle (good). The second was the hitch was approximately 3/4 of an inch higher off the ground (very good; this put it at 19.5" where as currently it is at 18.75".

The third thing this did was really put a lot more bend in the bars. I was (am) very concerned about over stressing the bars at hitch time. If I do this I fear that it could be possible for the bars to bend much, much too much when encountering road conditions I find all too often on our interstate road system which causes the defection of the truck rear end and ultimately results in several very large movements up and down (like proposing). I do NOT want to take the chance of breaking either bar.

As to the cam arms, when mine bent and/or broke I did not find any evidence of the trunnion bar making contact with the large part of the cam arm where the threaded rod from the sway control passes through. But, I can see where it would be very easy to have this happen if the trunnion bars were adjusted such that they worked in the fashion described by HowieE. And yes HowieE, the bending was away from the A frame of the trialer.

As HowieE and I discussed on the phone, I am of the opinion that the heavier the trunnion bars the less free play there is in the area of the sway control where the trunnion bar rests when making extremely tight turns. Also, when an off camber condition is added to a decreasing radius turn the forces at the cam itself being exerted by the trunnion bar appear to me from observation to have a great potential for lateral movement of the trunnion bar itself which acts like a lever against the side of the area where the trunnion bars rests on top of the sway control. This is very different from making contact with the large area the threaded rod passes through. Hope this makes sense.

As for the chains and how they pull, in my first post to this tread I stated, "Also note that there is a plate between the trailer frame and the chain pull up mechanism that is a quarter inch thick piece of aluminum. I found I had to do something to get more space between the bars and the "knuckle" of the dual cam."

This, in my opinion, does a lot to reduce the angle of the chains being pulled in towards the A frame of the trailer. My objective by adding the plate was to insure that the chains were perpendicular to the A frame and not angled in to the A frame.

It should be noted that twice when the sway control rods were bending with the heavier trunnion bars the plate that the chains attach to was bending as well. In one case it was bent so severely that I could not turn it to remove it from the sway control.

Any rate, as I stated earlier, I am happy enough with how things are set up now but I wonder if the use of 700 pound bars would allow me to transfer more weight to the front axle and raise my hitch up an additional 3/4" to 1" without altering the angle of the trunnion bars in relation to the hitch and sway control (and therefore not changing the ball angle), thereby not putting so much stress on the trunnion bars as is necessary by changing the angle of the hitch ball at the hitch with the 600 pound rated bars I am currently using.

Jim, who appreciates everyone's input to this thread and is looking forward to hearing from Andy about all this...

[LI Pets]

Jim,

The height of the ball has very little to do with it.

You change the bend in the bars by tilting the ball

Tilt it aft and you increase the load.

Tilt it more upright decrese the load.

When you do this you can feel the difference when you lever up the chain to the magic 5 link length.

In post 3 I see the ball is tilted more than I like to see, also you have 6 links.

Can you crank it up to 5 links, that will put more weight on the front axle

[HowieE]

Originally Posted by LI Pets

Howie, not sure in the pic, but is the chain point to point verticle?
Also a while back I had Resse tech support on the phone and this guy who sounded very knowledgeable said you should always strive for 5 links no more no less.

Hi Bob

Yes the chains rest in a vertical position. However I do not think that is a consideration because there while the force from the bars is a 100% downward force any angle displacement would have a minimal effect on the hanger. A vector analysis using Maxwell's diagram would define the effect.

Looks like we will all be at Top Sail this year. I will be there Thursday and if things are not resolved by then maybe we can work it out then.