Load Equalizing hitches

[Mikethefixit]

Thanks ANDY
Great data .

[pmclemore]

Thanks for all your time and trouble, Andy.

Pat

[Dave Park]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

We will gladly wait for the results of your tests, for comparison purposes.

When might you consider starting them?

I am not trying to court controversy. I am attempting to confirm your findings.

Due to the lack of information on how the tests were conducted, I or anyone else are unable to repeat your tests and produce comparison data, even if we were inclined to.

That makes your data unverifiable and unsupportable.

That's why I asked the questions - to clarify the method used and to rule out any potential problems with your protocol. Without those answers, you can't even say, "controlled tests" because no-one beside you knows what the controls were.

Answering everyone's questions simply removes uncertainty about your 'data' and allows ALL of us to have more confidence in it.

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by Dave Park

I am not trying to court controversy. I am attempting to confirm your findings.

Due to the lack of information on how the tests were conducted, I or anyone else are unable to repeat your tests and produce comparison data, even if we were inclined to.

That makes your data unverifiable and unsupportable.

That's why I asked the questions - to clarify the method used and to rule out any potential problems with your protocol. Without those answers, you can't even say, "controlled tests" because no-one beside you knows what the controls were.

Answering everyone's questions simply removes uncertainty about your 'data' and allows ALL of us to have more confidence in it.

So far, only you and one other person are not satisfied without having gobs of details.

You have free time, I do not, as I still work 10 to 12 hours a day. Therefore I do not have time to make a dissertation for the purposes of satisfying those 2 people.

They are certainly free to make any tests that they may so choose, with whatever parameters they desire, as I did.

So far, it looks like most people understand the tests and are appreciative as well. That accomplished the goals we set.

Andy

[SmokelessJoe]

It would be interesting to see the other Andy weigh in on this but he's probably too smart for that.



Sergei

[newroswell]

Since when does airforum threads offering information need to be complete, verifiable, supportable, repeatable, with complete certainty and confidence? Take it for what it is.

Now that this thread has reached it's predictable conclusion, time to move on.

[SteveH]

Well, it would be interesting to have the note at the bottom of Andy's article elaborated on...."Information from sources deemed reliable have been used in this article".

Like, what "information", and what "sources", and who "deemed" it reliable.

Just saying.......

[safari57]

Thank you, Andy, for taking the time and effort to do this. And for posting your results. As always, the silent majority appreciate your efforts.

Now to watch the responses

[Dave Park]

I appreciate that you published the data.

I am happy for you that most people "understand" the tests, even though there is not enough information to do so.

However, your data cannot be scrutinized in any meaningful way by any third party.

Therefore, your data is not informative. It cannot be used in any meaningful way in making purchase or set-up decisions, and adds nothing to the resolution of the interminable debate.

You had an opportunity to bring clarity. Instead, you have obfuscated the protocol to the point where this effort of yours is meaningless, and a waste of your, my, and everyone else's time.

[bertro]

Thanks Andy;
Again you have taken the time to pass on your knowledge to this forum. There will always be those few that can't just say thanks for your time and effort. Thankfully I'm not their spouse!! can you imagine.
Thanks again Andy
Robert

[Secguru]

Andy:

Thanks for your report. I appreciate the effort and time you put into this.

Can you tell me please how to apply these test results to real-world setups? For example, given a 1998 34' Airstream tied to a 2006 Dodge Ram 2500 Cummins 4X4, how would one select the appropriate spring bars?

Thanks again. I think a simple "here's how to apply this..." would go a long way towards helping all us poor folk.

All my best,

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by Secguru

Andy:

Thanks for your report. I appreciate the effort and time you put into this.

Can you tell me please how to apply these test results to real-world setups? For example, given a 1998 34' Airstream tied to a 2006 Dodge Ram 2500 Cummins 4X4, how would one select the appropriate spring bars?

Thanks again. I think a simple "here's how to apply this..." would go a long way towards helping all us poor folk.

All my best,

The purpose of the tests was to show how different bars bend, under a given load.

The idea is to use a load equalizing hitch rating, that is adequate for the job, without beating the trailer to pieces.

You have a heavy duty tow vehicle, which in itself provides some road shock to the trailer. The heavier torsion bar you use, the more of that same energy is transfered to the trailer.

I would think an 800 pound and certainly not more than a 1000 pound torsion bar rating would do a good job for you, along with a torsion type sway control, auch as Reese offers.

The chart also shows what happens to the bars, when, as an example, you go up a driveway, such as they now have a gas stations. That suggests that you should go up the driveway at an angle, instead of straight, as that will minimize the added stress to the bars, as well as the front end of the trailer.

Andy

[soldiermedic]

Originally Posted by r carl

Geeee Dave, did you question your mother how she cooked your meals?

HAHAHAHAHA...having heard about Dave's mum from him, I don't think she was the cookin type

[Gene]

Originally Posted by newroswell

Since when does airforum threads offering information need to be complete, verifiable, supportable, repeatable, with complete certainty and confidence? Take it for what it is.

But, wouldn't is be nice if the information was "complete, verifiable, supportable, repeatable".

I appreciate Andy's effort to bring information forth a little more light to a topic that is usually characterized by endarkenment.

I hope this, so far, unending controversy will someday result in someone testing hitches in a professional laboratory. Nobody would like their prescriptions to only be tested by a local pharmacy or airplanes to only be tested by each small town airport to see if either were safe.

Even well equipped labs with experienced engineers can make mistakes, use improper protocols and be biased. It's all part of the scientific method and eventually the back and forth should lead to information that we can all rely on. Before a lab does the testing, we are relying on anecdotal information, varying analysis by people with varying degrees of expertise, and tests by vendors. This seems to me a natural process and each person is moving the debate forward. I don't think we will see those professional lab tests until someone has either an economic interest in paying for it, a regulatory agency has the authority and budget to pay for it, or a university lab does it for altruistic reasons, for graduate research or to train students. If someone with an economic interest is a hitch manufacturer or a trade association, the results will be suspect for bias. If a insurance trade association, also having an economic interest, does testing, the results may be more reliable, but there could be bias if the effort has a hidden agenda of increasing rates.

So, like newro' said, take it for what it is. It more than we had before.

Questions from my unscientific mind—wouldn't a stiffer bar provide more sway control? Which is worse—an accident caused by poor sway control or a trailer beat up by stiff bars? The last question does not mean I agree that stiffer bars beat up trailers—I don't know. My experience is that the obvious answer is not always the correct answer and that the obvious answer is often the correct answer. This is not a paradox.

Gene

[Secguru]

Thanks Andy:

Is there any simple formula or chart that a goofball like me could use to determine the correct lash-up combination for any given truck/trailer combination?

All my best,

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

But, wouldn't is be nice if the information was "complete, verifiable, supportable, repeatable".

I appreciate Andy's effort to bring information forth a little more light to a topic that is usually characterized by endarkenment.
So, like newro' said, take it for what it is. It more than we had before.

Questions from my unscientific mind—wouldn't a stiffer bar provide more sway control? Which is worse—an accident caused by poor sway control or a trailer beat up by stiff bars? The last question does not mean I agree that stiffer bars beat up trailers—I don't know. My experience is that the obvious answer is not always the correct answer and that the obvious answer is often the correct answer. This is not a paradox.

Gene

Gene.

I already went further than any hitch manufacture, or RV manufacturer, or dealer, with those tests, AND without any support from anyone, except encouragement from nice people.

It's not and "END", but a beginning if someone else wishes to take it to the next level, with their time, money and talents. Then of course they also must accept the criticism from non believers as well, that more than likely would follow.

Please be advised, that load equalizing hitch torsion bars, DO NOT in any way, provide sway control. There are 2 types of sway controls, if you wish. There is the friction type, that has no idea if the rig is straight or in a turn. Then there is the torsion type sway control, that provides extra, unequal torsion, on the bars when in a turn. They of course seek minimum torsion, therefore they help the rig straighten out, as well as keep it that way.

In my opinion, Equalizier hitches "do not" offer "ANY" sway control, except in their ads.

Andy

[newroswell]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

But, wouldn't is be nice if the information was "complete, verifiable, supportable, repeatable".

We'll know if they're repeatable as soon as someone else starts spending their own time & money on testing!

Personally I don't see the data as all that revealing. The percentages of deflection in 800 vs 1000 bars, round vs tapered vs EAZLift vs Equalizer, is interesting. I doubt the work Andy has done will actually sell more hitches for him (and he knows that), but it might help him and others make a better decision given a vehicle/trailer combo.

So guess what folks, you're still going to have to use your own head and do some measuring, weighing and thinking when tuning your hitch setup.

I'm keeping my subscription to this thread awaiting others tests though.

[newroswell]

Originally Posted by Secguru

Is there any simple formula or chart that a goofball like me could use to determine the correct lash-up combination for any given truck/trailer combination?

Sec, find out how much your trailer weighs by measuring it at the scales or with a scale. Buy the bars that match that weight. You probably won't find bars that match your exact weight. Andy's answer, 3 posts above your question, is to go for the lighter bars rather than the heaver bars if you have a heavy duty vehicle, when that happens.

I'm not sure I agree with that, and others will flat out disagree, but that's his position in dozens of responses to your same question.

[SteveH]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

There are 2 types of sway controls, if you wish. There is the friction type, that has no idea if the rig is straight or in a turn. Then there is the torsion type sway control, that provides extra, unequal torsion, on the bars when in a turn.
Andy

Andy,

Again, you are partially correct. Those are two types of sway control, but you keep overlooking, or avoiding the type of sway elimination used by ProPride and Hensley.

But then again, you don't sell those hitches, do you?

[dwightdi]

Andy is right in his conclusions, the heavy duty trucks with too heavy rating bars do cause more problems for their trailers, even if his method of not loading the bars the way it used when you are towing, does cause some concern. If the bars take a permanent set after use, then the bars you are using are not heavy duty enough for your type of usage. The rating of the bars does not have any effect on the amount of sway control they give you. Only the amount of load you put on the bars has any affect on the self centering force for a twin cam Reese. The amount of frictional sway control for a Equalizer hitch is dependent on how much you torque down the restraining ells as well as the frictional force developed by the bar force due to the amount of weight you are transferred. Draw a free body diagram, like mechanical engineers use, and it is easy to see and calculate.