Hitch Weight

[B. Cole]

Originally Posted by Dennis C

This thread delivers some entertaining discussion! I love it.

Putting aside the concern over Subaru engines self-destructing around 80,000 miles (something with which I have actual experience on more than one Subaru), I think this all comes down to who you trust. I agree with jcl’s comments that the manufacturer’s recommendations are a good starting point when considering tow limits. If you decide to ignore the manufacturer’s recommendations, then how do you decide what is safe? Who do you trust? Do you trust a guy on the internet who says everything will be okay? Do you trust the guy on the internet who tells you that you need a bigger truck or you’ll endanger your life and the lives of others? Unfortunately there’s not a good way to validate the knowledge or credentials of these guys on the internet. Even if they tell you that they’ve done the same thing before with great success, was it really the same? How can you be sure?

If you trust everything a guy on the internet says, then you’d sell your Subaru as soon as possible before the engine explodes.

Each of us has to decide who to trust and who not to trust when we ask for advice online. We also have to consider the consequences of bad advice. If somebody gives you bad advice on which size light bulb you need for a burned out brake light, then the consequences are minor. If you get bad advice on a piece of important safety equipment, then the consequences could be major.

Personally, I’d rather stay well within the manufacturer’s limits and reduce my stress level.

Agree pretty much.I personally could care less if a Subaru engine+ transmission self destruct at the same time.Im basing my take on simple math.Then also factoring in that the OP is brand new to towing.
For any "bumper pull" tongue weight, you want as close to 15% of the trailer weight on the tongue as possible.
So, like I stated, if someone is frantically trying to move a few pounds off the tongue, to the front of tow vehicle, or rear of trailer,or worried if their propane tanks are full, or if the tanks are aluminum VS steel,etc etc etc,then the tow vehicle is WAY too small.Regardless of what the experts think.
Those experts won't be standing in the median, if someone follows their advice, and rolls their trailer.They will be on to giving the next person with a marginal tow vehicle some advice.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by jcl

What is your evidence for the claim that the vehicle has a marginal structure?

Those who have designed hitches for it, whether Curt or others, disagree with your position. What failure modes did you see?

Agree with you on the CVT, but then I don't like CVTs in any vehicle. At least this one was designed for the 260 hp that the engine develops, so it should be stronger than ones I had experience with years ago.

The 'failure' mode is safe towing.

A 500lb TW limit on a 5000+lb loaded AS, being towed by something NOT designed for towing.
You may not agree...thats your prerogative.

“Its better to have what you don't need when you need it, than not to have it when you don’t.” or “you may think you don’t need it but when you do need it….you have it.”
RLC

Bob
🇺🇸

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Shiny16

There is no post by me saying that the Ascent is “way too small”.

I used the phrase posted and reposted. Perhaps I should have said quoted. You quoted and endorsed it. Here.

Originally Posted by B. Cole

Exactly.
When one is trying to move a few pounds desperately, from rear to front , of a bumper pull tow vehicle,with special hitch "set ups" ( especially + one of my favorites, to " help keep the front steer tires down " ) your Tow Vehicle is WAY TOO SMALL...

Originally Posted by Shiny16

I can’t say I agree with too many of your posts but I think you tend to enjoy that!
This one is spot on.

Cheers

[Shiny16]

Originally Posted by jcl

I used the phrase posted and reposted. Perhaps I should gphave said quoted. You quoted and endorsed it. Here.





Cheers

That’s not a direct reference to the OPs vehicle. These threads do drift and my post should be misrepresented as a endorsement of an entire post. Again I would appreciate if you don’t take liberties when quoting me.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Shiny16

What is your evidence for the claiming the Ascent frame is strong enough for weight distribution when Subaru explicitly says not to use weight distribution. I have no doubt that unibody construction is strong. In fact my tow vehicle is unibody. I’m just not sure the are all created equally.

Successful implementation by CanAm; a professionally designed, tested, and marketed receiver by Curt Manufacturing; and an understanding of modern vehicle design. How do you think that unibody vehicle supports the weight it was designed to carry?

It is standard practice for manufacturers not to endorse things they don’t have control over. Been there.

Don’t confuse absence of evidence with evidence of absence.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

The 'failure' mode is safe towing.

A 500lb TW limit on a 5000+lb loaded AS, being towed by something NOT designed for towing.
You may not agree...thats your prerogative.

“Its better to have what you don't need when you need it, than not to have it when you don’t.” or “you may think you don’t need it but when you do need it….you have it.”
RLC

Bob
🇺🇸

By definition, safe towing is the non failure mode. Stress cracks in the unibody could be a failure mode. I haven’t seen it, but maybe others have.

The trailers under discussion all have rated weights under the rated design towing capacity of the vehicle.

All that is needed is more tongue weight capacity, and provision for the use of WD equipment. The 500 lb tongue weight limit says more about Subaru’s understanding of towing safety than it does about the vehicle capability. But they may have just used the far too common “divide tow rating by 10” method.

[Shiny16]

Originally Posted by jcl

By definition, safe towing is the non failure mode. Stress cracks in the unibody could be a failure mode. I haven’t seen it, but maybe others have.

The trailers under discussion all have rated weights under the rated design towing capacity of the vehicle.

All that is needed is more tongue weight capacity, and provision for the use of WD equipment. The 500 lb tongue weight limit says more about Subaru’s understanding of towing safety than it does about the vehicle capability. But they may have just used the far too common “divide tow rating by 10” method.

Things like “may have” certainly implies assumption.

Being that the Ascent has only been available for about 2 years how much inspection and testing of this unibody with weight distribution applied has been done to warrant your endorsement of successful?
I probably could put my weight distribution hitch on a Hyundai Accent and pull my 16 successfully depending on my definition of success.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Shiny16

Show me a receiver built by a reputable company for the Ascent that is approved for use with weight distribution. You are assuming that this limit is placed on the vehicle simply because the hitch needs to be reinforced. You may be correct but you’re just assuming. So again it’s either manufacturer’s guidelines or an internet source.

Sure.

The highest rated one IMO would be a custom receiver by CanAm.

If you remain sceptical, you may prefer the Curt Mfg model 13448. Rated to 5,000 lbs. gross trailer weight and 750 lbs. tongue weight. Compatible with weight distribution hitch (5,000 lbs. WD / 750 lbs. WDTW). Engineered with a vehicle-specific design for a custom fit. Tested for safety in accordance with SAE J684.

Those are all their words. Pretty reputable company IMO. $209. A little bit more reasonable than a new vehicle, as long as vehicle load ratings can be met.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Shiny16

Things like “may have” certainly implies assumption.

Being that the Ascent has only been available for about 2 years how much inspection and testing of this unibody with weight distribution applied has been done to warrant your endorsement of successful?
I probably could put my weight distribution hitch on a Hyundai Accent and pull my 16 successfully depending on my definition of success.

“May.” They may have multiplied the design receiver tongue weight target by 10 to get a tow rating target. Or they may have divided the tow rating target by 10 to get the tongue weight limit guidance. It is one or the other. There are no coincidences. They would have then tested the ratings to validate them, absolutely, but either the tongue weight guidance is artificially low, or the tow rating is artificially low. It is one or the other. It would be incredibly difficult (and thus expensive) to design a complex system whereby every design target was met simultaneously. I assume they set a low design tow weight target based on a market analysis, but they may have done it the other way around and said let’s design a receiver that can support 500 lbs, and then call that a 5000 lb tow limit target. Then validate. But understand that some of the numbers you refer to as vehicle capability limits are just figures of convenience.

See the Curt Mfg details for their testing. Same process the vehicle manufacturers use. Not surprising, since they build hitches for vehicle manufacturers.

No, you could not just put your WD hitch on a Hyundai Accent and pull an Airstream. But Curt will sell you a Class 1 receiver with a 200 lb weight limit for that vehicle. Usually this line of argument involves a bicycle. Isn't this called reductio ad absurdum?

[Shiny16]

Originally Posted by jcl

“May.” They may have multiplied the design receiver tongue weight target by 10 to get a tow rating target. Or they may have divided the tow rating target by 10 to get the tongue weight limit guidance. It is one or the other. There are no coincidences. They would have then tested the ratings to validate them, absolutely, but either the tongue weight guidance is artificially low, or the tow rating is artificially low. It is one or the other. It would be incredibly difficult (and thus expensive) to design a complex system whereby every design target was met simultaneously. I assume they set a low design tow weight target based on a market analysis, but they may have done it the other way around and said let’s design a receiver that can support 500 lbs, and then call that a 5000 lb tow limit target. Then validate. But understand that some of the numbers you refer to as vehicle capability limits are just figures of convenience.

See the Curt Mfg details for their testing. Same process the vehicle manufacturers use. Not surprising, since they build hitches for vehicle manufacturers.

No, you could not just put your WD hitch on a Hyundai Accent and pull an Airstream. But Curt will sell you a Class 1 receiver with a 200 lb weight limit for that vehicle. Usually this line of argument involves a bicycle. Isn't this called reductio ad absurdum?

This is getting ridiculous. My only point from the beginning was that one could either use the vehicle manufacturers specs or they could take follow advice on an Internet forum. I prefer to be conservative. You prefer to miss quote and paint anyone conservative on this subject as a truck only fanboy.

[B. Cole]

Originally Posted by Shiny16

Your assuming that the 500 pound hitch weight and restrictions on weight distribution would all be addressed by by a stronger hitch.

I would appreciate if you quote me that you do not take artistic license with my posts.Even if you like to color.

Exactly.This is all about safety.
Thats why reputable hitch installers won't put a 5th Wheel in the bed of a 1/2 Ton pickup.
Why not??
Because some genius is going to hitch his 8 ton /36 foot triple axle 5th Wheel trailer to it, and pull it at 75 MPH, because the strong 5h wheel "Matches up with his trailer" Or "Hold my beer, we're going campin"
I'm sure the OP didn't expect this response, but in my opinion, it's very good information for a lot of people, including brand new to combination vehicle people, who lurk and read these threads.Especially at the start of a brand new towing season, with a record number of new campers hitting the roads.
Much to the delight of many, I'll keep saying this.
"Bigger, when it comes to tow vehicles, is always better"
Don't give your trailer any more ability to drive your tow vehicle, than emergency conditions will give it, due to the laws of physics.
When any size combination vehicle rolls,and I've watched them all go, it's not a pretty sight.
Also, regardless of what size rig ,SLOW DOWN OUT THERE.
Speed kills, every hour of every day...

[B. Cole]

Originally Posted by jcl

Agree these threads are entertaining.

As to who to trust, I recommend considering how nuanced the responses are. The Ascent in question can definitely tow the trailers under discussion, as they are well within the manufacturer's tow rating. It comes down to whether it would be safer with WD and potentially a little more tongue weight (I personally believe it would be). But then we get into things like the packing and cargo habits of the OP. If they have eight people in the vehicle, and luggage to match, then probably not so good a fit. If they don't overload their vehicle now, they are off to a better start. If posters state absolutely that this vehicle can't work, without understanding the other cargo requirements, they are not on solid ground.

Suggesting the unibody design is somehow weaker is a giveaway. It shows a lack of understanding of modern vehicle design. The unibody is stronger. It can be more of a challenge to connect a receiver to it. But it has been figured out. Just not by all posters.

All manufacturer ratings matter, but to different degrees IMO. Tire and axle weight ratings are defined as to how they are done, and what they mean. Good idea to respect them.

Tow ratings don't matter as much to me, since the trailer is such a variable, but it would in this case because of the CVT. I don't have experience with this model CVT to say it could tow more, so would respect the 5000 lb tow ratings unless I had more data. The precautionary principle at work.

Hitch receiver ratings tend to be based on the strength of the receiver. Sometimes they reflect marginal rear axle weight ratings, but in that case WD equipment can help address the problem. To conflate receiver ratings with vehicle ratings is another reason to question some poster's advice.

Given that most all here are anonymous, a good course of action would be to talk to a professional hitch design and installation shop that has done this before. Andy from CanAm already chimed in. They don't charge for advice. One could go further, and look at the Curt Manufacturing info. They know something about designing hitch receivers and attachment methods. I saw hitches with three different ratings for this specific vehicle. Looking at them, there are indications of why the ratings are different.

ps: We sold our Subaru prior to 80,000, but not due to any engine issues. Never had a failure. It was a Japanese built Legacy with the two speed transfer case.

Ok, we are in total agreement that these posts are entertaining.I'll add informative also.
By the way, I'll take full credit for the "Way too small" posts, just to get that out of the way.
Anyway, let's agree that the OP, is new to towing.As well as many many people reading these towing threads, who have never even hitched a tiny U-Haul trailer up to anything.
There are a lot of total pro drivers, of commercial combination vehicles, that post in these.I thanked one driver recently with 40 years of Semi experience, who jumped into my thread of Tips for new drivers of combination vehicles.Their knowledge is extensive.As well as non commercial drivers, who have pulled these Airstreams+ assorted campers , for many years.
But let's all try and realize something.Im a old gambler, so I'll put some odds on this statement.Maybe less than 5 out of a 100 of these new drivers, will even get a tongue weight on their first time loaded new Airstream.Let alone pull up on a CAT commercial scale at a truck stop, to get their axle weights.If they even knew what they were supposed to be.
These threads, in my opinion, open their eyes to what they need to be aware of.So all of these posts, pro + con, are very informative.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by B. Cole

"Bigger, when it comes to tow vehicles, is always better"

Sorry, I must disagree. I find that oft-quoted phrase to be trite, and unhelpful.

A tow vehicle is often used solo as well. Personally, I can’t accept the safety risks resulting from an oversized and overweight tow vehicle, usually with poorer handling, longer stopping distances, and so on. Especially when it is used solo. For some of us, towing duty is close to 5 or 10% of total use. The right amount of capability is that which is sufficient, not that which is excessive. Because all designs involve trade offs, and gaining on tow capacity means giving up something else.

If one is purchasing a dedicated tow vehicle, and always leaves it hitched when on trips, it is easier to defend a larger and heavier vehicle IMO.

[B. Cole]

Originally Posted by jcl

Sorry, I must disagree. I find that oft-quoted phrase to be trite, and unhelpful.

A tow vehicle is often used solo as well. Personally, I can’t accept the safety risks resulting from an oversized and overweight tow vehicle, usually with poorer handling, longer stopping distances, and so on. Especially when it is used solo. For some of us, towing duty is close to 5 or 10% of total use. The right amount of capability is that which is sufficient, not that which is excessive. Because all designs involve trade offs, and gaining on tow capacity means giving up something else.

If one is purchasing a dedicated tow vehicle, and always leaves it hitched when on trips, it is easier to defend a larger and heavier vehicle IMO.

Sometimes, you have to just read slower, with less extrapolation of the quoted statement.
My statement you quoted, clearly says "Bigger ,when it comes to Tow vehicles, is always better ."
I could care less what else it's used for, other than towing.It can sit in the driveway, if it's too hard to " handle " if not used for towing.Call that "trite" if you like.Its a simple fact, dealing with towing physics.
BTW, handling often is determined by who's the
" steering wheel holder" as pro heavy haul commercial drivers like to sometimes call themselves.
One person's limitations with a vehicle may not apply to another.Like making a Indy car "handle" at 200 mph.Most can't do it.Same vehicle, different steering wheel holder.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by B. Cole

Sometimes, you have to just read slower, with less extrapolation of the quoted statement.

My statement you quoted, clearly says "Bigger, when it comes to Tow vehicles, is always better."

I could care less what else it's used for, other than towing. It can sit in the driveway, if it's too hard to "handle" if not used for towing. Call that "trite" if you like. Its a simple fact, dealing with towing physics.

While you could perhaps care less about non towing usage, I am left to wonder why you are recommending a specific course of action in a thread about a vehicle that the OP already owns, and clearly uses for other than towing duty. If you couldn’t care less about their safety, then perhaps it would be better to not post a recommendation?

[B. Cole]

Originally Posted by jcl

While you could perhaps care less about non towing usage, I am left to wonder why you are recommending a specific course of action in a thread about a vehicle that the OP already owns, and clearly uses for other than towing duty. If you couldn’t care less about their safety, then perhaps it would be better to not post a recommendation?

Once again.You are safer in a larger vehicle, when towing.Or, for that matter, non towing.For example, if one has problems stopping a larger tow vehicle, when used solo/ not for towing, they probably need to slow down.Which, btw, is another one of my safety mantras.
As I've stated repeatedly, this is about towing safety.
Especially, like the OP,putting a new to towing person, in a situation where their vehicle, bought clearly for non towing use, will be pressed into towing use. When it will clearly be operating at or near or over , maximum weights.
That's not a safe combination, in the hands of a new to towing driver, as they clearly stated.Twist it any way you like.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by jcl

While you could perhaps care less about non towing usage, I am left to wonder why you are recommending a specific course of action in a thread about a vehicle that the OP already owns, and clearly uses for other than towing duty. If you couldn’t care less about their safety, then perhaps it would be better to not post a recommendation?

A 'dual use' vehicle is just that, and likely not to do either up to par.
I prefer using a vehicle that was designed for towing & travel and accept the minor suffering when not.
🤨

Bob
🇺🇸

[B. Cole]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

A 'dual use' vehicle is just that, and likely not to do either up to par.
I prefer using a vehicle that was designed for towing & travel and accept the minor suffering when not.
��

Bob
����

Thanks Bob, for that moment of clarity, beamed from the Milky Way.
The whole "Smaller is better" when it comes to tow vehicles,defies the laws of physics.Now , here, it's proponents are searching for heavier "special set up" hitches, to dance around the weight problem the SUV is encountering.
Maybe the next one they find, can take 1,000 pounds plus of tongue weight.Just in case.
Oh, only problem with that, is it will probably weigh more than half the tongue weight of 500 pounds the vehicle manufacturer states as allowable
Oh well, I'm sure everything will be fine when the trailer is hooked up.Then loaded up.Most experienced tow people here know how that goes.
The bumper can barely carry the special hitch, let alone a fairly large trailer, at that point.Many of those proponents are forgetting that tongue weight should be as close to 15% of total trailer weight as possible ( not 10%) to avoid sway issues.Enough tongue weight is critical.
Here's the physics/ safety issue.The simple fact of adding a trailer, creates often twice the weight of a tow vehicle alone, should there be impact from a accident.Thats why that rig , especially any " bumper pull" , which all Airstream trailers are,must be safe, with safety margins, on weight.Not loaded to or over maximum weights allowable, and then put in the hands of a new operator.Thats why there's a breaker on electrical circuits.And safety recommendations are for 80% of circuit load, not 100% or more.
Theres no breaker on a combination rig.Youve got to understand load safety.
My opinion, is always get a bigger, more capable, tow vehicle, to avoid operation at weight maximums.

[Shiny16]

Originally Posted by jcl

Sure.

The highest rated one IMO would be a custom receiver by CanAm.

If you remain sceptical, you may prefer the Curt Mfg model 13448. Rated to 5,000 lbs. gross trailer weight and 750 lbs. tongue weight. Compatible with weight distribution hitch (5,000 lbs. WD / 750 lbs. WDTW). Engineered with a vehicle-specific design for a custom fit. Tested for safety in accordance with SAE J684.

Those are all their words. Pretty reputable company IMO. $209. A little bit more reasonable than a new vehicle, as long as vehicle load ratings can be met.

So I contacted Curt. I questioned the use of this hitch with the Ascent and I was told that if the car manufacturer says not to use weight distribution then it should not be used. Curt tests the hitch independently of the car. So while the hitch is rated under j684 the Subaru is not. So the only endorsement I see for this set up is from you. A guy on the internet.

I accept that some unibody construction can handle weight distribution. Mine can and is not only recommended but required by the manufacturer in some situations. That doesn’t mean all unibody constructed vehicles can handle the stress of weight distribution. Without proper testing it’s just an assumption that the WDH issue is do to the factory hitch.

For the OP if he is still following. If you are going to follow the new hitch route please call the manufacturer of the hitch and talk it over.

[Dennis C]

I actually like the direction of the discussion above with respect to compromises and the consequences of the choices that we all make when buying a vehicle. This is true for a vehicle of any type. For example, I own a Porsche 911 cabriolet. It’s a wonderful car and I love it. It has over 600 HP, it has amazing carbon ceramic brakes, and it handles like nothing else on the road. That said, it comes with many compromises. It’s small inside, it has a useless back seat, the ground clearance is so low that I can’t get into some driveways, I can’t carry more than one carry-on sized suitcase in the truck, etc. it’s a car that was built for sport and driving enjoyment, not for hauling passengers and cargo. It excels in that capacity.

When I’m not driving my Porsche, I’m usually driving my truck. It’s big and comfortable. It has heated and cooled seats. It can haul lots of stuff. It can tow my Airstream. However, it’s a gas guzzler compared to the Porsche. It is a pain in the ass to park, especially in tight parking lots. It doesn’t brake or handle as well as the Porsche. These are the compromises that I make when I drive the truck. It’s certainly not as fun and sexy as the Porsche.

In the case of many people who like to camp with an Airstream or other trailer, a second vehicle used primarily for towing simply isn’t a good option. They are forced to make a choice on how they will handle this, and where they will compromise. Most go for an SUV with the towing capacity that they need, but without the compromises required when driving a truck. This isn’t a bad choice. The SUV option typically results in a lower towing and cargo capacity than a truck, resulting in a small to medium sized trailer choice. Again - this isn’t a bad thing, it’s the compromise that you make with that type of vehicle. Another option is buying a motor home and driving whatever car you like. Many people take this route.

I think the challenge becomes significant when people push the limits of a compromise vehicle like an SUV. They either push it with a less capable tow vehicle, or with a larger and heavier trailer. The simple fact is that if you compromise on the tow vehicle by purchasing something that’s easier to live with as a daily driver, then you also have to compromise with something that’s smalller and lighter for your trailer. That’s the nature of compromise. It’s not a bad thing, it’s part of the compromise.

I’m not pushing the philosophy that everyone needs a big truck to tow an Airstream. All I’m saying is that if you choose something less capable than a truck as your tow vehicle, then you need to adjust your expectations and requirements for your trailer. Do the research on the tow vehicle, on the trailer, and the combination. If the research shows that the combination works, then go for it. If the research is inconclusive, or shows that it’s not safe, or that you’re right at the maximum limits of your chosen combination, then it’s time to reevaluate your priorities and adjust your choices. Compromise.