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Old 04-05-2021, 08:56 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by kscherzi View Post
Well 650 lbs is certainly better, but still may not be enough for his trailer with is 525lb empty tongue weight spec as calculated by Airstream which we all agree is likely quite low.

My 27FB is said by Airstream to weigh 770lbs at tongue with full tanks and otherwise empty from factory. Maybe so, but ready for camping its about 200 lbs over that. Add in another 70lbs for the WD hitch and my tow vehicle hitch is carrying over 1,000 lbs of dead weight. Fortunately its rated for 1,250 lbs.

The OP is in a dilemma. A brand new SUV and a recent eye for a trailer that's pushing the towing and loading boundaries. We haven't even yet talked of how many people and stuff is planned to be put into the SUV while towing.
Exactly.
When one is trying to move a few pounds desperately, from rear to front , of a bumper pull tow vehicle,with special hitch "set ups" ( especially + one of my favorites, to " help keep the front steer tires down " ) your Tow Vehicle is WAY TOO SMALL...
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Old 04-06-2021, 02:13 PM   #62
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All the same names talk about how these SUVs are all too small, they can’t pull a trailer (safely), and the max weights don’t allow any margin. Now all of these concerns have some validity, but there is something fishy going on too.

Does it just so happen that the engineers at Honda, Toyota, VW, Hyundai, Subaru, Ford... all designed unibody SUVs exactly the same way? Did they all use exactly the same materials and architectures? Same suspension???

The answer is clearly “no”.

Then how come they all came to exactly the same 5,000 pound tow weight and 500 pound tongue weight???

All you guys that harp on the engineering are missing the forest for the trees. The published limits are influenced by much more than the pure mechanical capabilities of the individual vehicles. Market competition and mitigating legal liabilities have a big role to play in this equation.

Unlike full size trucks, these SUVs are not using the towing and payload capacity as a market differentiator. It is just a common qualification at a common level (e.g. 5,000 pounds).

Think more strategically and not so limited to the engineering vertical.
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Old 04-06-2021, 02:18 PM   #63
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All the same names talk about how these SUVs are all too small, they can’t pull a trailer (safely), and the max weights don’t allow any margin. Now all of these concerns have some validity, but there is something fishy going on too.

Does it just so happen that the engineers at Honda, Toyota, VW, Hyundai, Subaru, Ford... all designed unibody SUVs exactly the same way? Did they all use exactly the same materials and architectures? Same suspension???

The answer is clearly “no”.

Then how come they all came to exactly the same 5,000 pound tow weight and 500 pound tongue weight???

All you guys that harp on the engineering are missing the forest for the trees. The published limits are influenced by much more than the pure mechanical capabilities of the individual vehicles. Market competition and mitigating legal liabilities have a big role to play in this equation.

Unlike full size trucks, these SUVs are not using the towing and payload capacity as a market differentiator. It is just a common qualification at a common level (e.g. 5,000 pounds).

Think more strategically and not so limited to the engineering vertical.
I can’t speak for all but I don’t think all “these SUVs” are too small and can’t safely tow a trailer. The OP asked a question about his Accent. Likely it will be over the manufacturer’s limits if he chooses to tow an Airstream with it. I don’t see how anyone can argue with that.
He has the information and it’s up to him to decide to follow Subaru’s guidance or the advice from an Internet forum and Airstream dealers.
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Old 04-06-2021, 03:13 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by B. Cole View Post
Exactly.
When one is trying to move a few pounds desperately, from rear to front , of a bumper pull tow vehicle,with special hitch "set ups" ( especially + one of my favorites, to " help keep the front steer tires down " ) your Tow Vehicle is WAY TOO SMALL...

See...I told you so.😂

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Old 04-06-2021, 03:29 PM   #65
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I can’t speak for all but I don’t think all “these SUVs” are too small and can’t safely tow a trailer. The OP asked a question about his Accent. Likely it will be over the manufacturer’s limits if he chooses to tow an Airstream with it. I don’t see how anyone can argue with that.
He has the information and it’s up to him to decide to follow Subaru’s guidance or the advice from an Internet forum and Airstream dealers.
Fortunately, the OP doesn't have an Accent. That is a small Hyundai sedan.

The vehicle in question is an Ascent. It is a medium sized SUV. Given the three row seating, some would call it a large SUV.

I towed with an X5, earlier model. The Ascent is longer, with a longer wheelbase. It is wider. It has the same curb weight. The Ascent has more power. My X5 was rated to tow up to 7700 lbs, depending on the market. Mine had a 6000 lb receiver on it, but others were famously towing Airstream 31 foot models with it, very successfully.

The Ascent makes sense at 5000 lbs towing. I don't know about the factory receiver, but Andy appears to, and has set up this vehicle for towing. Anybody else have that experience? As far as I can tell, there is only one person on this thread with experience with this question. Personally, I would consider a stronger receiver, to be more comfortable with using WD equipment, while respecting all vehicle weight ratings. I wouldn't be concerned about the stock Subaru receiver rating, as I would remove that component and replace it.
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Old 04-06-2021, 03:48 PM   #66
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Fortunately, the OP doesn't have an Accent. That is a small Hyundai sedan.

The vehicle in question is an Ascent. It is a medium sized SUV. Given the three row seating, some would call it a large SUV.

I towed with an X5, earlier model. The Ascent is longer, with a longer wheelbase. It is wider. It has the same curb weight. The Ascent has more power. My X5 was rated to tow up to 7700 lbs, depending on the market. Mine had a 6000 lb receiver on it, but others were famously towing Airstream 31 foot models with it, very successfully.

The Ascent makes sense at 5000 lbs towing. I don't know about the factory receiver, but Andy appears to, and has set up this vehicle for towing. Anybody else have that experience? As far as I can tell, there is only one person on this thread with experience with this question. Personally, I would consider a stronger receiver, to be more comfortable with using WD equipment, while respecting all vehicle weight ratings. I wouldn't be concerned about the stock Subaru receiver rating, as I would remove that component and replace it.
Should the OP also use BMWs recommendation of synthetic 5w30? I don’t think so. Why? Maybe because they are two different vehicles? Of course you can just make up your own conclusions rather then listen to those that built the engines.

Well you got me. I actually spelled the name of the car incorrectly. Good for you!
Subaru limits the hitch to 500 pounds and advises against the use of weight distribution with this vehicle. The Airstreams in question will be over that limit. Subaru makes no mention of exceptions to these restrictions based on modifications. I don’t see how you can argue that this combination exceeds the manufacturer’s limits.
It might be your opinion that it would work fine and it might. That does not change the fact that it exceeds manufacturers limits. So again it come down to following Subaru’s guidelines or the opinions of internet forum members.
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Old 04-06-2021, 04:04 PM   #67
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Subaru limits the hitch weight to 500 pounds and advises against the use of weight distribution with this vehicle and hitch combination. The Airstreams in question will be over that limit, so it makes sense to look for a stronger hitch receiver, custom designed for this vehicle, while still respecting tire and axle weight ratings. Subaru, like all manufacturers, makes no mention of exceptions to these restrictions based on modifications, since they have no control over modifications done post sale. I don’t see how you can argue that this combination exceeds the manufacturer’s limits.

I don't argue that, you do. The only guidance I would exceed is the load limit for a hitch receiver that I would have removed from the vehicle, and which would be in the scrap bin. The replacement receiver would be rated 750 lb tongue weight limit with WD equipment. That would allow me to meet all manufacturer's guidance, both Subaru's, and Curt Manufacturing's. Problem solved.
Comments in blue. Clarifications in red.

The fundamental problem is considering the Subaru guidance to be the ultimate vehicle capacity. It is simply what they tested it at. And if you are going to put this much stock in manufacturer's guidance, then it would make sense to find guidance that is specific to a travel trailer, if not an Airstream. Guidance that considers the centre of gravity of a travel trailer, and the side surface area. Guidance that considers the use of trailer brakes. And so on.
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Old 04-06-2021, 04:14 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by jcl View Post
Comments in blue. Clarifications in red.

The fundamental problem is considering the Subaru guidance to be the ultimate vehicle capacity. It is simply what they tested it at. And if you are going to put this much stock in manufacturer's guidance, then it would make sense to find guidance that is specific to a travel trailer, if not an Airstream. Guidance that considers the centre of gravity of a travel trailer, and the side surface area. Guidance that considers the use of trailer brakes. And so on.
Your assuming that the 500 pound hitch weight and restrictions on weight distribution would all be addressed by by a stronger hitch.

I would appreciate if you quote me that you do not take artistic license with my posts.Even if you like to color.
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Old 04-06-2021, 04:18 PM   #69
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The obvious solution for a flimsy original equipment hitch receiver is to upgrade the receiver.

There are hitch receivers available for the Ascent that are rated for WD, with tongue weight ratings to 750 lbs.

Obviously the vehicle will be limited by axle ratings, but using WD, properly set up, would be the best course of action for the OP. Especially since the hitches available cost around $200 and don't require any vehicle modifications or welding.
Sez you...a real strong hitch, on a marginal structure driving a constant velocity transmission.
A fine mode of transport...not a real good TV🥴

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Old 04-06-2021, 04:21 PM   #70
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Sez you...a real strong hitch, on a marginal structure driving a constant velocity transmission.
A fine mode of transport...not a real good TV��

Bob
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Thank you. I suspect that a 200 dollar hitch will not make it an X5
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Old 04-06-2021, 04:25 PM   #71
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Should the OP also use BMWs recommendation of synthetic 5w30? I don’t think so. Why? Maybe because they are two different vehicles? Of course you can just make up your own conclusions rather then listen to those that built the engines.
Well, this is getting off topic. But since you went to the trouble of adding this paragraph in, here goes.

I think people should base their vehicle maintenance on the manufacturer's recommendations, as a starting point. Vary from there based on condition monitoring.

I used the 24,000 km/16,000 mile oil change intervals recommended by the vehicle manufacturer, as a starting point. And always the API oil quality reference, since it was well defined. Sometimes I changed the oil a few thousand km early, due to time intervals. But it was amazing how many people told me I was going to blow up my engine if I followed those intervals. The same people said you have to follow manufacturer's guidance for tow rating, because the manufacturer knows best.

It was enough to make one's head spin.

I have always based my recommendations on mechanical engineering discipline, experience as a mechanic and service manager, and personal experience. I also listen to those who have done it before, like CanAm.

I don't tend to listen to generic and common claims such as SUVs are poor for towing, or that everyone needs a heavy duty pickup.
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Old 04-06-2021, 04:29 PM   #72
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You're assuming that the 500 pound hitch weight and restrictions on weight distribution would all be addressed by by a stronger hitch.
That is correct. I would use a hitch from a professional hitch manufacturer, who tested their hitch on this specific vehicle, and rated it. A company that has designed and manufactured far more hitches than Subaru.

If you don't like that company, there are professional hitch shops who have experience with this model.

Or, you could assume that the "not tested with WD" comment from Subaru actually means that the vehicle can't work with WD.
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Old 04-06-2021, 04:32 PM   #73
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Sez you...a real strong hitch, on a marginal structure driving a constant velocity transmission.
A fine mode of transport...not a real good TV🥴

Bob
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What is your evidence for the claim that the vehicle has a marginal structure?

Those who have designed hitches for it, whether Curt or others, disagree with your position. What failure modes did you see?

Agree with you on the CVT, but then I don't like CVTs in any vehicle. At least this one was designed for the 260 hp that the engine develops, so it should be stronger than ones I had experience with years ago.
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Old 04-06-2021, 04:40 PM   #74
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Thank you. I suspect that a 200 dollar hitch will not make it an X5
It absolutely will not, we agree fully. But it will address the limitation on tongue weight for the stock hitch receiver, up to the other limits inherent in the vehicle, such as tire and axle weight ratings.

The X5 comparison was offered because of posts and reposts by both B. Cole and you, Shiny, that the Ascent was "WAY TOO SMALL" as it was eloquently put. It isn't clear what that assessment was based on. Apparently it wasn't based on tow vehicle wheelbase, length, width, or curb weight.
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Old 04-06-2021, 04:42 PM   #75
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This thread delivers some entertaining discussion! I love it.

Putting aside the concern over Subaru engines self-destructing around 80,000 miles (something with which I have actual experience on more than one Subaru), I think this all comes down to who you trust. I agree with jcl’s comments that the manufacturer’s recommendations are a good starting point when considering tow limits. If you decide to ignore the manufacturer’s recommendations, then how do you decide what is safe? Who do you trust? Do you trust a guy on the internet who says everything will be okay? Do you trust the guy on the internet who tells you that you need a bigger truck or you’ll endanger your life and the lives of others? Unfortunately there’s not a good way to validate the knowledge or credentials of these guys on the internet. Even if they tell you that they’ve done the same thing before with great success, was it really the same? How can you be sure?

If you trust everything a guy on the internet says, then you’d sell your Subaru as soon as possible before the engine explodes.

Each of us has to decide who to trust and who not to trust when we ask for advice online. We also have to consider the consequences of bad advice. If somebody gives you bad advice on which size light bulb you need for a burned out brake light, then the consequences are minor. If you get bad advice on a piece of important safety equipment, then the consequences could be major.

Personally, I’d rather stay well within the manufacturer’s limits and reduce my stress level.
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Old 04-06-2021, 05:06 PM   #76
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This thread delivers some entertaining discussion! I love it.

Putting aside the concern over Subaru engines self-destructing around 80,000 miles (something with which I have actual experience on more than one Subaru), I think this all comes down to who you trust. I agree with jcl’s comments that the manufacturer’s recommendations are a good starting point when considering tow limits. If you decide to ignore the manufacturer’s recommendations, then how do you decide what is safe? Who do you trust? Do you trust a guy on the internet who says everything will be okay? Do you trust the guy on the internet who tells you that you need a bigger truck or you’ll endanger your life and the lives of others? Unfortunately there’s not a good way to validate the knowledge or credentials of these guys on the internet. Even if they tell you that they’ve done the same thing before with great success, was it really the same? How can you be sure?

If you trust everything a guy on the internet says, then you’d sell your Subaru as soon as possible before the engine explodes.

Each of us has to decide who to trust and who not to trust when we ask for advice online. We also have to consider the consequences of bad advice. If somebody gives you bad advice on which size light bulb you need for a burned out brake light, then the consequences are minor. If you get bad advice on a piece of important safety equipment, then the consequences could be major.

Personally, I’d rather stay well within the manufacturer’s limits and reduce my stress level.
Agree these threads are entertaining.

As to who to trust, I recommend considering how nuanced the responses are. The Ascent in question can definitely tow the trailers under discussion, as they are well within the manufacturer's tow rating. It comes down to whether it would be safer with WD and potentially a little more tongue weight (I personally believe it would be). But then we get into things like the packing and cargo habits of the OP. If they have eight people in the vehicle, and luggage to match, then probably not so good a fit. If they don't overload their vehicle now, they are off to a better start. If posters state absolutely that this vehicle can't work, without understanding the other cargo requirements, they are not on solid ground.

Suggesting the unibody design is somehow weaker is a giveaway. It shows a lack of understanding of modern vehicle design. The unibody is stronger. It can be more of a challenge to connect a receiver to it. But it has been figured out. Just not by all posters.

All manufacturer ratings matter, but to different degrees IMO. Tire and axle weight ratings are defined as to how they are done, and what they mean. Good idea to respect them.

Tow ratings don't matter as much to me, since the trailer is such a variable, but it would in this case because of the CVT. I don't have experience with this model CVT to say it could tow more, so would respect the 5000 lb tow ratings unless I had more data. The precautionary principle at work.

Hitch receiver ratings tend to be based on the strength of the receiver. Sometimes they reflect marginal rear axle weight ratings, but in that case WD equipment can help address the problem. To conflate receiver ratings with vehicle ratings is another reason to question some poster's advice.

Given that most all here are anonymous, a good course of action would be to talk to a professional hitch design and installation shop that has done this before. Andy from CanAm already chimed in. They don't charge for advice. One could go further, and look at the Curt Manufacturing info. They know something about designing hitch receivers and attachment methods. I saw hitches with three different ratings for this specific vehicle. Looking at them, there are indications of why the ratings are different.

ps: We sold our Subaru prior to 80,000, but not due to any engine issues. Never had a failure. It was a Japanese built Legacy with the two speed transfer case.
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Old 04-06-2021, 05:26 PM   #77
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It absolutely will not, we agree fully. But it will address the limitation on tongue weight for the stock hitch receiver, up to the other limits inherent in the vehicle, such as tire and axle weight ratings.

The X5 comparison was offered because of posts and reposts by both B. Cole and you, Shiny, that the Ascent was "WAY TOO SMALL" as it was eloquently put. It isn't clear what that assessment was based on. Apparently it wasn't based on tow vehicle wheelbase, length, width, or curb weight.
There is no post by me saying that the Ascent is “way too small”. Again you like to take liberties with quoting. I’m certainly not in the you need a heavy duty truck for everything camp. I’m just not into second guessing what a manufacturer’s intent was when it places ratings on a vehicle.
Show me a receiver built by a reputable company for the Ascent that is approved for use with weight distribution. You are assuming that this limit is placed on the vehicle simply because the hitch needs to be reinforced. You may be correct but your just assuming. So again it’s either manufacturers guidelines or an internet source.
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Old 04-06-2021, 05:31 PM   #78
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What is your evidence for the claim that the vehicle has a marginal structure?

Those who have designed hitches for it, whether Curt or others, disagree with your position. What failure modes did you see?

Agree with you on the CVT, but then I don't like CVTs in any vehicle. At least this one was designed for the 260 hp that the engine develops, so it should be stronger than ones I had experience with years ago.
What is your evidence for the claiming the Ascent frame is strong enough for weight distribution when Subaru explicitly says not to use weight distribution. I have no doubt that unibody construction is strong. In fact my tow vehicle is unibody. I’m just not sure the are all created equally.
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Old 04-06-2021, 05:32 PM   #79
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Lots of great advice here. IMHO you should consider other options different TV or TT. Better to be safe especially just learning how to tow.
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Old 04-06-2021, 05:34 PM   #80
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This thread delivers some entertaining discussion! I love it.

Putting aside the concern over Subaru engines self-destructing around 80,000 miles (something with which I have actual experience on more than one Subaru), I think this all comes down to who you trust. I agree with jcl’s comments that the manufacturer’s recommendations are a good starting point when considering tow limits. If you decide to ignore the manufacturer’s recommendations, then how do you decide what is safe? Who do you trust? Do you trust a guy on the internet who says everything will be okay? Do you trust the guy on the internet who tells you that you need a bigger truck or you’ll endanger your life and the lives of others? Unfortunately there’s not a good way to validate the knowledge or credentials of these guys on the internet. Even if they tell you that they’ve done the same thing before with great success, was it really the same? How can you be sure?

If you trust everything a guy on the internet says, then you’d sell your Subaru as soon as possible before the engine explodes.

Each of us has to decide who to trust and who not to trust when we ask for advice online. We also have to consider the consequences of bad advice. If somebody gives you bad advice on which size light bulb you need for a burned out brake light, then the consequences are minor. If you get bad advice on a piece of important safety equipment, then the consequences could be major.

Personally, I’d rather stay well within the manufacturer’s limits and reduce my stress level.
Bravo Bravo!

I don’t advocate F350s for all . In fact I limit myself to a 16 because I don’t really want a truck. When it comes time to decide who to trust I stick with the more conservative.
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