Friction sway control...worthwhile?

[out of sight]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

How much?.. 3640lb with WD set. 2980 with no WD and 3740 truck alone...the back unloaded 3600.

TETO

Bob

So if I read your numbers right you are starting out at close to 50/50 and after loading and setting your hitch you are at 56/44. In your case then i would agree that you can benefit from the w/d hitch.

In my case I'm starting out with 40/60, Rear/Front, unloaded. A w/d hitch would work against me. Without a w/d hitch I/m close to 50/50 with a 900 lb tongue load.

[Profxd]

Actually the TV/TRL combination will tow better with more weight on the rear axle than on the front, not 50/50. The idea is to increase the rear axle cornering stiffness higher than the front even if by a small amount. Many are aware of the need to have the TRL COG in front of the trailer axle. On the TV it’s COG should be offset rearward of center between the WB length but the further away from the rear axle the better the stability. A WDH doesn’t change the TV COG so let’s get that out of the way. If this is achieved w/o a WDH adding one using less then the vehicle manufacturers recommended FALR shouldn’t upset handling too much.

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by out of sight

You can't go by a generic manual. That instruction is meant for a wide range of vehicles with a wide range of loads. But concerning manual instructions, the manual for my SUV does not allow a wd hitch to be used. The manual for my truck recommends to use a wd hitch for heavy loads. An Airstream is a light load at 40% of the max allowable load.

Since this came right after my quote of your reply, I assume you meant this for me. I’m not going by a generic manual. I’m going by the (voluminous) manuals specific to my truck with multiple tables based on multiple x-factors. Its very specific to my situation.

Do you have scale tickets? If so, those will be very specific, and you can match that information to the specific recommendations of your manufacturers. For example - you say your SUV doesn’t want a WD hitch. So if you hook up a trailer and lift 600# of the steer axle of your SUV, would you tow it without a WD hitch?

Please post your actual, specific scale tickets so I can better understand what you’re seeing. If you don’t have them or aren’t interested in getting them, you’re certainly entitled to your opinion but I have no interest in taking this any further without them. It’s not my mission in life to convince you of something here [emoji3]

[out of sight]

Originally Posted by jcl

Close. The goal is to achieve a perfect weight distribution over the axles of your vehicle, whether towing or not, if you want optimum handling.

You have a tow vehicle with an abnormally high front axle weight bias. You add the trailer, and claim that you are now balanced. We haven't seen the scale tickets and so don't know that for sure; it appears you are going from manufacturer's spec sheets, even though you also say that you can't trust a generic manual.

So when you have scale tickets, a reasonable discussion can ensue. The issue then, of course, will be how you manage with your tow vehicle when not hitched, as it will have far from ideal weight distribution. Many owners of similar trucks compensate by adding equipment to put some weight in the back, whether a canopy, tonneau, tools, or whatever. If you are running with nothing in the back, as long as you have a dedicated tow vehicle that you don't drive solo, you will probably be fine.

Scale ticket: Steer 4760, drive 3240. Agrees with the mfr tow chart when the options are taken into account. The truck is designed to tow, but it handles like a dream when unloaded. I think I'll go easy in the snow, though.

[out of sight]

Originally Posted by jcl

Close. The goal is to achieve a perfect weight distribution over the axles of your vehicle, whether towing or not, if you want optimum handling.

You have a tow vehicle with an abnormally high front axle weight bias. You add the trailer, and claim that you are now balanced. We haven't seen the scale tickets and so don't know that for sure; it appears you are going from manufacturer's spec sheets, even though you also say that you can't trust a generic manual.

So when you have scale tickets, a reasonable discussion can ensue. The issue then, of course, will be how you manage with your tow vehicle when not hitched, as it will have far from ideal weight distribution. Many owners of similar trucks compensate by adding equipment to put some weight in the back, whether a canopy, tonneau, tools, or whatever. If you are running with nothing in the back, as long as you have a dedicated tow vehicle that you don't drive solo, you will probably be fine.

Originally Posted by SteveSueMac

Since this came right after my quote of your reply, I assume you meant this for me. I’m not going by a generic manual. I’m going by the (voluminous) manuals specific to my truck with multiple tables based on multiple x-factors. Its very specific to my situation.

Do you have scale tickets? If so, those will be very specific, and you can match that information to the specific recommendations of your manufacturers. For example - you say your SUV doesn’t want a WD hitch. So if you hook up a trailer and lift 600# of the steer axle of your SUV, would you tow it without a WD hitch?

Please post your actual, specific scale tickets so I can better understand what you’re seeing. If you don’t have them or aren’t interested in getting them, you’re certainly entitled to your opinion but I have no interest in taking this any further without them. It’s not my mission in life to convince you of something here [emoji3]

When I tow my 28 with my SUV I use a w/d hitch. When I towed my 22 I started out using a w/d hitch but when I analyzed the load distribution I found out I could get rid of the hitch with a little attention to where I put the cargo. It tows much better without it. Try it. you may like it.

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by out of sight

When I tow my 28 with my SUV I use a w/d hitch. When I towed my 22 I started out using a w/d hitch but when I analyzed the load distribution I found out I could get rid of the hitch with a little attention to where I put the cargo. It tows much better without it. Try it. you may like it.

I’m assuming your intention isn’t to act like a troll. However, I want to let you know it’s hard for me not to infer that’s exactly what you’re doing by continually avoiding a very simple question. If you have the tickets (which surely you must have used to “analyze load distribution”) please be so kind as to post them.

[out of sight]

Originally Posted by SteveSueMac

I’m assuming your intention isn’t to act like a troll. However, I want to let you know it’s hard for me not to infer that’s exactly what you’re doing by continually avoiding a very simple question. If you have the tickets (which surely you must have used to “analyze load distribution”) please be so kind as to post them.

Actually I weighed each piece of cargo, measured it's location in the trailer, and calculated the effect on the tongue. I also weighed the tongue to confirm that my efforts were validated. If you do that you will get a much better picture of what's going on than to weigh the trailer as a whole. Have you tried that?

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by out of sight

Actually I weighed each piece of cargo, measured it's location in the trailer, and calculated the effect on the tongue. I also weighed the tongue to confirm that my efforts were validated. If you do that you will get a much better picture of what's going on than to weigh the trailer as a whole. Have you tried that?

No I haven’t tried that method. Thanks for explaining it.

I’m out. [emoji3]

Happy camping!

[gypsydad]

I am agreeing with post #86; show us your scale tickets so we can see how your loaded...I know my 28' TW is a bit over 1100 lbs loaded. Perhaps some more credibility to your assertions with the tickets....also, what is your TV info...

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by out of sight

When I tow my 28 with my SUV I use a w/d hitch. When I towed my 22 I started out using a w/d hitch but when I analyzed the load distribution I found out I could get rid of the hitch with a little attention to where I put the cargo. It tows much better without it. Try it. you may like it.

Here is a great youtube explanation of WDH to help you better understand the "how and why" for using the WDH; cargo loading is important but not the major cause of TT sway.... Also this video shows the value in the difference of longer WB TV's adding to stability. (of course, like many who post here, your going to do what you want anyway, right??) enjoy the video and perhaps learn something about WDH.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWJ4Iy6ek24

[out of sight]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

I am agreeing with post #86; show us your scale tickets so we can see how your loaded...I know my 28' TW is a bit over 1100 lbs loaded. Perhaps some more credibility to your assertions with the tickets....also, what is your TV info...

I think you're putting too much into your CAT scale tickets and not paying enough attention to how you load your trailer and truck. You realize of course that by the way you load the trailer the tongue weight will vary quite a bit. The number Airstream gives is for a a trailer with no options. My 28 has solar a second a/c which will reduce the tongue load. The salesman told me it would take 100 lbs off the tongue from the brochure number of 899 lbs, not that you can believe what a salesman says. Now you can load cargo behind the axles and that will reduce your TW or you can load it in the front and that will increase your TW.

Woops. Just got a tornado warning. I'll finish later after my awning is up. If you don't hear from me you'll know what happened.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by out of sight

I think you're putting too much into your CAT scale tickets and not paying enough attention to how you load your trailer and truck. You realize of course that by the way you load the trailer the tongue weight will vary quite a bit. The number Airstream gives is for a a trailer with no options. My 28 has solar a second a/c which will reduce the tongue load. The salesman told me it would take 100 lbs off the tongue from the brochure number of 899 lbs, not that you can believe what a salesman says. Now you can load cargo behind the axles and that will reduce your TW or you can load it in the front and that will increase your TW.

Woops. Just got a tornado warning. I'll finish later after my awning is up. If you don't hear from me you'll know what happened.

Soooo, you really don't have any scale tickets, do you?? Note your quoting a "salesman" giving you his advice on tongue weight?? My TW on my 28' FYI, is 1100lbs...not what the brocure says. I have scale tickets; I took the time to weigh my rig and AS...you should also, if you want to be taken seriously.

I am agreeing with #86; your looking more and more like a troll...not an informed AS person sharing his/her real AS experience and knowledge. Hope you take time to look at the youtube video I posted?
I am done here also...

[out of sight]

OK I'm back. I looked at the weather radar and decided to take the chance and leave the awning up.

So I had this new unloaded 28 that I had to tow from NJ to FL. I tried towing it with my GMC Sierra but my transmission started smoking on the first hill. So I switched to my MB which allows a 7200 lb trailer but with a max tongue load of 575 lbs. How is that going to work? I took everything loose and put it into the bedroom. Took off the spare (50 lbs) and two propane tanks (108) and put them in the back. Then I weighed the tongue using a bathroom scale and it weighed in at 682 lbs. I still had 11% of the trailer weight (going by the Airstream loading label, which is the result of them weighing the actual trailer at the factory) on the tongue. Enough to prevent sway. I did decide to use my w/d hitch in this case because I couldn't get below the 575 lbs max set by MB.

Unfortunately I did not take pictures of the bathroom scale so I can't post the scale weights. You'll just have to believe me.

[jcl]

Removing tongue weight and putting all the items in the rear of the trailer in the mistaken belief that this "is enough to prevent sway" is ridiculous. It is but one aspect of the issue. And you worsened the yaw moment. Did you calculate that as well?

If you were serious about wanting a safe combination, you would weigh the tow vehicle axles, and the trailer; separate, coupled, and coupled with WD. You don't appear to understand the basics of setting up a safe combination. That is fine with me, especially since you are on the other side of the continent to me, and so I am unlikely to encounter you on the road. But then you go off recommending your approach to everyone else, repeatedly.

I laughed at your approach of weighing individual items, and not the combination. That would be like getting a made to measure suit, and telling the tailor that he didn't need to take any measurements, just make it blindly, because of you have a table of measurements for the average person, and a count of all the calories you have taken in since your last purchase.

It does occur that you aren't really serious about any of this, and are simply posting for effect. That would actually make more sense.

At least with all the warnings, fewer new readers will be tempted to emulate your approach.

Enjoy your trailer.

[ROBERT CROSS]

There are no Troll's in Fla.... just fisher people.😂

Bob
🇺🇸

[out of sight]

Originally Posted by jcl

Removing tongue weight and putting all the items in the rear of the trailer in the mistaken belief that this "is enough to prevent sway" is ridiculous. It is but one aspect of the issue. And you worsened the yaw moment. Did you calculate that as well?

If you were serious about wanting a safe combination, you would weigh the tow vehicle axles, and the trailer; separate, coupled, and coupled with WD. You don't appear to understand the basics of setting up a safe combination. That is fine with me, especially since you are on the other side of the continent to me, and so I am unlikely to encounter you on the road. But then you go off recommending your approach to everyone else, repeatedly.

I laughed at your approach of weighing individual items, and not the combination. That would be like getting a made to measure suit, and telling the tailor that he didn't need to take any measurements, just make it blindly, because of you have a table of measurements for the average person, and a count of all the calories you have taken in since your last purchase.

It does occur that you aren't really serious about any of this, and are simply posting for effect. That would actually make more sense.

At least with all the warnings, fewer new readers will be tempted to emulate your approach.

Enjoy your trailer.

Please, spare me the insults. Haven't you discovered somewhere along the line that the first person to hurl insults loses the argument?

That said, if Mercedes Benz, arguably the world's foremost authority on vehicle safety, says you can tow 7200 lbs with an 8% tongue load without sway control or weight distribution, do you think they're lying? No matter that they have thousands of engineers with who knows how many being paid to think about nothing else other than vehicle stability, and not only that they have test tracks, sensors, vehicles and trailers, etc. to test their ideas in real life. So whom should I listen to, Mercedes Benz or some hitch salesman who's fear mongering in an online chat room?

[jcl]

Originally Posted by out of sight

Please, spare me the insults. Haven't you discovered somewhere along the line that the first person to hurl insults loses the argument?

That said, if Mercedes Benz, arguably the world's foremost authority on vehicle safety, says you can tow 7200 lbs with an 8% tongue load without sway control or weight distribution, do you think they're lying? No matter that they have thousands of engineers with who knows how many being paid to think about nothing else other than vehicle stability, and not only that they have test tracks, sensors, vehicles and trailers, etc. to test their ideas in real life. So whom should I listen to, Mercedes Benz or some hitch salesman who's fear mongering in an online chat room?

Insulting people's intelligence is also a good way to lose an argument. But don't confuse this with an argument intended to change your mind. There is little likelihood that you will change your mind IMO. What may happen is that other readers will be better able to judge your claims, having more information available to them.

Mercedes has their engineers in Europe. That is where all those test tracks, etc, are. As you well know, the EU generally limits vehicle-trailer combinations to 80 km/hr, not the 100 mph you referenced earlier in this thread. Travel speed is a sway issue. European trailers are also designed with much smaller moments of intertia than NA trailers. It isn't just about tongue weight, that is simplistic, it is also about where that weight is located relative to the CoG. One hypothetical trailer has the weight concentrated over the axles. A second hypothetical trailer has the same tongue weight, but heavy components are distributed to the ends of the trailer, front and back, but resulting in the same tongue weight. The second trailer has a much higher propensity to sway. If this isn't a well understood concept, take a ride on a child's merry go round in a playground; get it spinning, then lean to the centre, and lean outwards. Notice the difference. Or, watch a figure skater in a spin, and note how they tuck their arms close to spin faster. Your focus on tongue weight does not consider the rotational issues that lead to trailer sway. But European trailer designers do. No heavy appliances, tanks, etc at the ends. Limited storage at the ends.

You surely also know that European trailers don't use WD equipment because of their use of surge brakes, which are not compatible with WD hitches.

So, if you want to follow Mercedes' advice, make sure you purchase a European trailer (or one with the same design characteristics), keep it under 80 km/hr, and use surge brakes (which likely aren't legal where you live).

Yes, I do think that Mercedes knows something about safety and vehicle stability. But I don't think you can take one element of their design and base your operating philosophy on it, while disregarding the rest of the package.

[out of sight]

So, can I tow a 7200 lb trailer safely at US highway speeds with an 8% tongue load without w/d or sway control? Mercedes says I can. So does Airstream. Or should I believe you instead? Or should I find a hitch salesman and ask him?

[jcl]

Originally Posted by out of sight

So, can I tow a 7200 lb trailer safely at US highway speeds with an 8% tongue load without w/d or sway control? Mercedes says I can.

Originally Posted by jcl

So, if you want to follow Mercedes' advice, make sure you purchase a European trailer (or one with the same design characteristics), keep it under 80 km/hr, and use surge brakes (which likely aren't legal where you live).

Yes, I do think that Mercedes knows something about safety and vehicle stability. But I don't think you can take one element of their design and base your operating philosophy on it, while disregarding the rest of the package.

Asked and answered.

[out of sight]

Originally Posted by jcl

Asked and answered.

So your answer is that I have to have a European trailer and I can't go faster than 48 mph. But if I buy a hitch from you then I can go 87 mph with my US made Airstream and my Tuscaloosa built Mercedes.