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Old 02-12-2020, 08:02 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by mkcurtiss View Post
This thread has gone straight to mumbo jumbo nit picking transfer delta combabulation hell.......



Lets sum it up with straightforward common sense.....



You are pulling a 25' camper with a Ram 2500....There is no reason why you need a weight distribution hitch. Boom. Finished.



I have several buddies pulling the same camper with an F-150...If your Dodge 2500 wont do that without struggling, you need a new truck.



You are well under the tow capacity of that truck. Hook up your Airstream, and go camping. Go on a short trip first. If you experience any sway, or uneasy physics, deal with it then. That is a heavy duty truck, with I presume, the independent rear suspension and air leveling .....You want your Airstream as level as possible. It is also great if your Truck is level.

A little squat is not a deal breaker....A lot of squat may be. I am pulling a 26' with a dang Tahoe 1500.....surely Dodge is not that wimpy....even if it is a Dodge......hehehehehahahaha


Youre entitled to your opinion.

I respectfully disagree.

Your conclusion MAY be right, but without a trip to the scales, how would you know for sure?

I have a 27 AS (just 2 longer than the 25) and a GM 2500 diesel. Likely youd assume WD isnt required for my rig either.

Scale tickets prove the trailer lifts 500# off the front end of the truck. That has an effect on steering and handling. WD restores some (and could restore all) of that weight to improve handling and reduce porpoising.

Its not not picking. Just letting the scales break through the BS...

Happy camping!
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Old 02-12-2020, 08:39 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkcurtiss View Post
This thread has gone straight to mumbo jumbo nit picking transfer delta combabulation hell.......

Lets sum it up with straightforward common sense.....

You are pulling a 25' camper with a Ram 2500....There is no reason why you need a weight distribution hitch. Boom. Finished.
Your opinion is faulty on inspection, there are plenty of reasons for a WD hitch in this situation. WD hitches, when set up properly, improve handling and steering response by all measures for this combination. It makes the vehicle respond better to real situations. If your faulty opinion were factually correct, then the statement "there is no reason, in an emergency maneuver, a reasoned driver would want improved steering, and handling response" would be defensible. Please attempt to support that statement. I'll wait.

As a designer of complex chemical reactors and processing units as well as mechanical systems, if I adopted your attitude, I'd likely blow stuff up and kill people.
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Old 02-13-2020, 04:27 AM   #63
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Your opinion is faulty on inspection, there are plenty of reasons for a WD hitch in this situation. WD hitches, when set up properly, improve handling and steering response by all measures for this combination. It makes the vehicle respond better to real situations. If your faulty opinion were factually correct, then the statement "there is no reason, in an emergency maneuver, a reasoned driver would want improved steering, and handling response" would be defensible. Please attempt to support that statement. I'll wait.

As a designer of complex chemical reactors and processing units as well as mechanical systems, if I adopted your attitude, I'd likely blow stuff up and kill people.
Brian, with all due respect. What defines a properly setup WDH to you? What methods do you use to determine its setup correctly? You act like we’re talking Chinese here where in reality all we’re saying is that “it’s safer to reduce TW% and to minimize the use of a WDH while maintaining enough TW% to control sway.” This research paper fully supports that concept and others do as well. There is a balance between having too much and to little TW to optimize both modes of stability for every specific towing combination and it loading.

If you take the same TV and trailer combo with 15% TW with 100% FALR vs 12% TW wth 40% FALR the latter will have improved handling over the first. As long as sway damping is controlled for the traveled speed it’s a win-win situation. If the TV suffers steering and braking issues from the addition of the TW alone before a WDH is added you have bigger problems to deal with. If you restore the steering and braking compliance with the WDH over TV recommended FALR % you solve one problem at the front and create another another at rear.
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Old 02-13-2020, 08:02 AM   #64
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This topic generates so much discourse, but it is much simpler, to me.
WD hitches are very handy if you are overloading your vehicle, or if you are “right at capacity”.....but towing with heavy duty vehicles eliminates the need for WDH...and yes I Do know what I am talking about......i have towed big loads all over the USA.....always using a vehicle that was more than capable of safely towing the load i was towing....this dynamic, known as the “ Bought a big enough truck “ dynamic, provides a safe, smooth, worry free experience, without the use of fairly dangerous, and often misused and often problematic, WDH.....

It is truly amazing, just how effective it is, to use a proper sized vehicle.....incredible really....
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Old 02-13-2020, 08:41 AM   #65
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I cometely agree. Yet some people, when faced with the problem that their tow vehicle is too small, go out and buy a wd hitch as if that's going to solve the problem. And the hitch salesman or trailer dealer is more than happy to sell them one.
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Old 02-13-2020, 09:38 AM   #66
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"Over 800 test runs were performed in which load leveling torque; hitch load, and tire pressure were the primary independent variables. Results show that increasing hitch load and/or load leveling torque degrade the tow vehicle understeer and reduce the speed for incipient jackknifing."
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Old 02-13-2020, 10:39 AM   #67
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I truly feel bad for Ashar the original poster asking a simple question and not requesting a lecture. In all the years I have been a member of this forum I don't remember hitch talk getting this stupid...... You guys need to take your no WD argument to it's own thread.


Ashar hopefully you will report back the adjustments and successes you have with your Equalizer hitch.
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Old 02-13-2020, 11:55 AM   #68
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I truly feel bad for Ashar the original poster asking a simple question and not requesting a lecture. In all the years I have been a member of this forum I don't remember hitch talk getting this stupid...... You guys need to take your no WD argument to it's own thread.


Ashar hopefully you will report back the adjustments and successes you have with your Equalizer hitch.

I agree completely. The forum seems to be littered with pedantic pseudo engineers with time on their hands.
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Old 02-13-2020, 01:02 PM   #69
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We have been discussing how to tension a WDH relevant to what the OP asked. If all goes as expected I’ll be bringing home a new 2020 RAM 2500 tomorrow but I already know how to setup my hitch.
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Old 02-13-2020, 02:17 PM   #70
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Brian, with all due respect. What defines a properly setup WDH to you?
Countless dozens of posts have described various acceptable ways to ensure your WD hitch is properly set up. I too find them all acceptable and have not taken exception to the advice provided by these posts.

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What methods do you use to determine its setup correctly?
Verifying the setup with a scale is the most objective way, as many have pointed out. Optimal final settings depend on the tow vehicle and how it is equipped.

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Originally Posted by Profxd View Post
You act like were talking Chinese here where in reality all were saying is that its safer to reduce TW% and to minimize the use of a WDH while maintaining enough TW% to control sway.
First off this is not "all" that is being said. Several other false claims have been made including, for example, the false notion WD exaserbates porpoising and sway. Second, it is not safer to reduce tongue weight [in order to] minimize use of a WDH. This is terrible advice especially as trailer weight approaches and exceeds tow vehicle weight. Even the S-Planes of the cooked research paper using a grossly inadequate and overloaded 1973 Caprice Station wagon makes that point. They demonstrated this most clearly when they dropped TW from 700lb to 300lb, but even the choice of 700lb (10%) indicated oscillation tendencies in the initial tests as well. It's unfortunate the math behind control system stability analysis is difficult to understand. Because of the deceptive way the researchers defined stability and wrote the results, it's natural for the casual observer to be misled.

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There is a balance between having too much and to little TW to optimize both modes of stability for every specific towing combination and it loading.
Not exactly, Fishtailing tendencies are minimized with a tongue weight of ~15%. For light trailers, there is a trade off required to prevent the trailer from bouncing on the tires/springs (too little trailer damping) so TW is often moved . Over steer tendency is best addressed by not driving too fast.


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If you take the same TV and trailer combo with 15% TW with 100% FALR vs 12% TW wth 40% FALR the latter will have improved handling over the first.
Not correct, it depends on the tow vehicle handling characteristics, vehicle speed and driving patterns. I note that even the overloaded and inadequate 1974 Caprice Station Wagon did not experience uncontrolled, unmanageable over steer until FALR far exceeded 100% and did not become fundamentally unstable until FALR exceeded 200%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Profxd View Post
If the TV suffers steering and braking issues from the addition of the TW alone before a WDH is added you have bigger problems to deal with.
All TV's suffer degradation in steering and braking with addition of tongue weight alone. Sway and porpoising is also degraded. If there is one thing this paper demonstrates, it is this reality.

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Originally Posted by Profxd View Post
If you restore the steering and braking compliance with the WDH over TV recommended FALR % you solve one problem at the front and create another another at rear.
It escapes me what problem one is creating if steering and breaking response is improved through increased WD tension and torque because it would follow that pitch, yaw, and sway would necessary improve also.
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Old 02-13-2020, 03:37 PM   #71
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I will have to go with profxd on this one, and with the engineering paper commissioned by the NHTSA. The previous responses make little sense, have no theoretical or empirical backup and are typical of the gibberish used by sales people trying to sell a product of which they know little to nothing. It's also a little insulting to the authors of the paper to accuse them of cooking the books without evidence. I have known many engineers and it would be rare indeed to find one deliberately lying in such a commissioned study.
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Old 02-13-2020, 06:13 PM   #72
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”It escapes me what problem one is creating if steering and breaking response is improved through increased WD tension and torque because it would follow that pitch, yaw, and sway would necessary improve also.“

Brian, the issue created at the rear axle is the reduction of tire cornering stiffness which is it’s ability to grip laterally. The concept works like this, tire cornering stiffness is dependent upon but is not directly proportional to the normal vertical load put on it. The added hitch load increases tire cornering stiffness increasing grip and it’s ability to withstand lateral loading. Now add the WDH which reduces the vertical load on the rear tires reducing cornering stiffness. The tires ability to withstand lateral force has now been reduced yet the mass that will generate the lateral forces remains in the same location. The WDH reduces down force at the rear axle and increases down force at the front but it does not change the longitudinal position of the TV COG since it moves no mass forward or aft. Now once the angle between the TV and trailer increases so does the lateral velocity of that mass creating inertia, the tire cornering stiffness needed to resist the inertia of that mass is reduced.
It is true increased TW% reduces sway tendencies but in contrast it also increases the tendency for the vehicle to jackknife( Understeer Gradient)at a lower speed and at less hitch angle. When you add the WDH the vehicle speed and hitch angle in which jackknife event occurs is lowered more. Basically find the amount FALR % that creates that balance between dynamic and static stability. There’s no doubt that the amount will vary between vehicles, most vehicle manufacturers will say it’s 50% FALR or less. There are many other details to consider on the topic and I’ve only hit the main points.

I know it’s going to come up so Hensley/Propride is in a class by itself for desensitizing dynamic sway stability but it still can create static instability if too much WD tension is used. Once lateral velocity and hitch angle reach they’re critical points the TV rear tires will let go like any other WDH. That’s why you will still find pictures of rigs with these hitches rolled or flipped over on occasion.
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Old 02-14-2020, 08:10 AM   #73
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Some details to consider.

Understeer Gradient is not a upfront in your face problem for consumers to solve. It generally sits in the background and only shows itself once speed and hitch angle reaches a critical point. Though well known for many years it has been generally ignored until put into SAE j2807 as a requirement.

The WDH can improve trailer sway damping slightly just by increasing downforce on the trailer tires.

Modern TV ABS/ESC can and does automatically adjust to improve braking during towing.

The WDH can improve the steering lightness that many strive to improve and feel is a far greater problem. Just because the steering feels lighter with TW though doesn’t necessarily mean it’s truly a safety hazard. Steering that feels light and TV Understeer Gradient are two different concepts.

There is a straight line straight ahead critical speed associated with oversteer so it’s not all cornering related. When approaching that critical speed the TV starts to gain the feeling of wander, the drivers first thought is to start make steering adjustments which will actually make it worse. A slight side ways push from wind or another vehicle while close to critical speed can trigger this motion.

Tire pressures can have significant effects on Understeer Gradient. HD class 2b trucks usually use this to control Understeer when load increases at the rear. Why they don’t use it on lighter class 2a 1/2 ton trucks is questionable.

TV manufacturers requirements for a WDH above 500/5000 trailers considers it provides improvements in vertical plane for the towing combination. Think Pitch and roll.

The amount of TW% makes the difference. If a 1000lbs TW is set on to the vehicle the initial shift towards oversteer is expected. But there can be variations of lateral forces acting at the hitch based on the TW %. A 1000lbs of TW at 10% doesn’t act the same as 1000lbs of TW at 15%. Increased TW % resists rotation far more then 10%, you see this as it increases sway damping critical speed. That resistance to rotation also lowers the Understeer Gradient and the speed and hitch angle that a jackknife occurs. TW % adjusts the trailer COG position relative to trailer axle center line. Less TW % allows the trailer to turn easier since it’s COG is closer to the trailers point of rotation , the axles. You move the trailer COG further forward away from the axle centerline you improve sway damping increasing resistance to turn.

As you see it becomes case of give and take with the requirement of a lower FALR % the intention is to try and target that balance. For Understeer Gradient is dependent on TV characteristics and tongue weight only, while Sway damping depends on characteristics of the TV, TW, and trailer.

The one trailer characteristic that can improve both Understeer Gradient and Sway damping is yaw inertia. Reducing trailer yaw inertia improves both modes of instability and it is achieved by centralized loading of the trailer. The RV TT by design has high yaw inertia but the consumer can still make a substantial improvement by adjusting how and where they load the trailer. The unfortunate reality is the RV manufacturers put storage locations at far ends of the trailer, the worse case scenario location to improve yaw inertia.

If anything I hope people take the time to try to understand these concepts themselves, apply them to your own situation as I have over the last 20 years of towing many different trailer types. Understanding why things happen can go a long way to solving a problem should it occur.
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Old 02-14-2020, 08:41 AM   #74
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It escapes me what problem one is creating if steering and breaking response is improved through increased WD tension and torque because it would follow that pitch, yaw, and sway would necessary improve also.

Brian, the issue created at the rear axle is the reduction of tire cornering stiffness which is its ability to grip laterally.
Yet this condition was excluded when you stipulated steering response was restored (improved). Thus the cause for my statement.
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Old 02-14-2020, 09:37 AM   #75
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The WDH can improve the steering lightness that many strive to improve and feel is a far greater problem. Just because the steering feels lighter with TW though doesn’t necessarily mean it’s truly a safety hazard. Steering that feels light and TV Understeer Gradient are two different concepts.
They are actually interdependent. The relationship is complex and not associative, but it is incorrect to suggest they are have no bearing on each other.


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There is a straight line straight ahead critical speed associated with oversteer so it’s not all cornering related. When approaching that critical speed the TV starts to gain the feeling of wander, the drivers first thought is to start make steering adjustments which will actually make it worse. A slight side ways push from wind or another vehicle while close to critical speed can trigger this motion.
You are convolving oversteer with oscillatory instability. Crossing from the ideal neutral steering and moving into oversteer most often occurs at very different conditions than crossing into oscillatory instability (manifested as uncontrolled sway leading to jackknife). It is possible to cross the critical plane while maintaining significant understeer.


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If anything I hope people take the time to try to understand these concepts themselves, apply them to your own situation as I have over the last 20 years of towing many different trailer types. Understanding why things happen can go a long way to solving a problem should it occur.
This discussion, of which I removed most of what I found to be factually accurate, was fairly good. I do find your over concern about reduction in understeer gradient troubling. I get that (understeer) sliding off the side of the road into the grass or into a guard rail or sideswiping the vehicle in the lane beside you is preferable to (oversteer) jackknifing and flipping. But oversteer with a trailer is a reality no matter how one sets things up all you need to do is increase speed relative to suspension capability, and road and weather conditions. Far and away the biggest shift occurs when you drop the tongue onto the ball. After that, you are just tweaking it a bit more for the typical range of weight redistribution. I think we can all agree that it is foolish to exceed speeds that are safe for your rig set-up and if so, it stands to reason that a vehicle with neutral steering response in the range of actual speeds experienced is ideal. Rather than compromising on handling and comfort in the range of safe speeds, a sound way to avoid oversteer is to refrain from driving too fast for conditions.
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Old 02-14-2020, 10:09 AM   #76
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Yikes, what an exhausting thread, the same as every one of the hundreds of other towing threads on the forum, nearly word-for-word. Everybody gets a ribbon for consistency.
We use an Equal-i-zer hitch for both WD and sway control, because thats what our dealer sold us with the trailer in 2013. Works fine, weighs less than the Hensley / Pro-pride. Well keep right on using it, no matter how many folks here opine wildly about delta-vee, photon transfer, polar oscillation, etc. Thanks for playing, have fun.
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Old 02-14-2020, 10:11 AM   #77
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Can I just say the photon transfer bit was damn funny!!
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Old 02-14-2020, 11:40 AM   #78
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We need Bud Haggert to do a video on hitches for us. That would be DEFINITIVE!



My rig a 30' Classic Ltd. Slideout, 2005 Dodge Ram 2500 5.9L CTD 6 speed, my hitch Equal-I-Zer, coffee perked on a Coleman, bacon in a CI skillet and my firewood is oak.

No plans to change any of the above or convince anyone else that it's the only way to go.

Campfire anyone?

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Old 02-14-2020, 08:35 PM   #79
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”They are actually interdependent. The relationship is complex and not associative, but it is incorrect to suggest they are have no bearing on each other.“

The root cause of both maybe the same but they are two different concepts.

“You are convolving oversteer with oscillatory instability. Crossing from the ideal neutral steering and moving into oversteer most often occurs at very different conditions than crossing into oscillatory instability (manifested as uncontrolled sway leading to jackknife). It is possible to cross the critical plane while maintaining significant understeer.“

No I’m not. There is a critical speed for sway damping and then there’s is a critical speed for a oversteer condition. Truly two different things.

“ I do find your over concern about reduction in understeer gradient troubling. I get that (understeer) sliding off the side of the road into the grass or into a guard rail or sideswiping the vehicle in the lane beside you is preferable to (oversteer) jackknifing and flipping. But oversteer with a trailer is a reality no matter how one sets things up all you need to do is increase speed relative to suspension capability, and road and weather conditions.”

People are concerned with sway and it’s consequences, oversteer should be as well. If you hit sway critical speed at 50mph do just travel at 45mph and be satisfied with it or do you try to raise it to at least the speed limit? The SAE sets a performance requirement for it just as does with sway because it has safety implications. Just like sway those that tow should be aware of what is, it’s causes, and how to try and correct for it. I know that’s probably asking too much from most people, based on what you see posted on this and other forums they know very little about the topic of sway as well.
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Old 02-15-2020, 12:03 AM   #80
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This thread is more like a science project.

Hi, I have owned the same trailer and the same hitch for 15 years. Never been on a scale. I set it up by simple measurements.

I have towed my trailer in conditions where most people on this forum would have stayed at home. My two longest trips were from Southern California to Alaska and back. And from Oregon to Maine, to South Carolina, and back to Oregon. [many tens of thousands of miles]

"In all of this time and miles, my trailer has, only once, swayed violently out of control; It was parked in my driveway during a 5.0 Earthquake."
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