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Old 07-21-2022, 05:39 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteck View Post
Sure looks like you've already decided what your conclusion is.

Actually, about hitches, I haven't. That is why I posted two possibilities. The point is, hitch correlated or not, an RV shouldn't do this. Every other AS has a similar distribution of hitch use and abuse without issue.


See my picture. I am interested in hearing feedback from engineers.
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Old 07-21-2022, 08:58 PM   #142
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Not an engineer, but adding an annotated diagram of my own to help highlight the stresses in this area.

The "banana wrap" pointed to with the white arrow in your photo covers the steel frame of the trailer. Here's how it is put together on all trailers:
  • Aluminum shell panels and aluminum support ribs are fastened to the C-channel
  • C-channel goes around the entire perimeter and is bolted to the steel frame (if you get under the A frame and look up behind the banana wrap, you will see 2 of these bolts)
  • plywood/composite floor sits between C-channel and frame

The "curve" you noted in your diagram (at the beginning of the segment protectors) is where the last fully supported rib is located. Those support ribs are riveted to the front and side panels directly underneath the hinge of the segment protectors, and fastened securely to the C-channel below. As seen in the diagram, there is a 45" gap below and to the sides of the storage compartment, where there is NO reinforced support other than the skin being riveted to the C-channel, with 8 buck rivets. It's a monocoque design so the issue of support of more complex than that, but still, it's a long gap without any secured support ribs.

Based on my review of owner's photos, there appears to be variance in the length of the "floating" support ribs which I believe is part of why some trailers develop this issue sooner and some later. Some trailers have "floating" ribs that extend, but are not fastened, to the C-channel. Some, such as mine, end several inches above the C-channel. Due to the lack of any support against compression, I think trailers that were built with the shorter support ribs are more prone to this issue.

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Old 07-21-2022, 11:44 PM   #143
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my dealer recognized this as a warranty

My point is that our focus should be on what is wrong with these AS models and supporting each other to get AS to take responsibility for their mistake. These models should work with any hitch used as they are typically used. This thread’s title sends us in the wrong direction by highlighting the hitch. Perhaps I should have let it die and started a new one….[/QUOTE]


I believe AS already recognized this as a warranty issue, my dealer has and it has been noted on my first warranty service. Currently mine has been reviewed and is only cosmetic.
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Old 07-22-2022, 05:14 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick tracy View Post
My point is that our focus should be on what is wrong with these AS models and supporting each other to get AS to take responsibility for their mistake. These models should work with any hitch used as they are typically used. This thread’s title sends us in the wrong direction by highlighting the hitch. Perhaps I should have let it die and started a new one….

I believe AS already recognized this as a warranty issue, my dealer has and it has been noted on my first warranty service. Currently mine has been reviewed and is only cosmetic.[/QUOTE]

That is certainly valid, and perhaps the subject of a specific thread. That DOES NOT mean that you can or should silence those of us who want to find technical causes and fixes for the condition. We aren't all under warranty, by any stretch.

Go ahead and start a thread relative to warranty responsibility and any other action some would like to take. Hitch selection, spec'ing, and adjusting are all contributors to a less than robust design and build. No question....not a "wrong direction".
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Old 07-22-2022, 05:51 AM   #145
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Thanks for your posit and picture Starlite29. Also not an engineer here but that was my understanding as well when JC fixed mine under warranty. JC told me they thru bolted the newly added L brackets thru the frame in the non-supported weak areas.

The issue re-surfaced. I had it repaired by a 3rd party. He sent me pictures that showed these L brackets were not thru bolted but only attached with with self tapping Screws

This was going to fail no matter what hitch I used. IMO

In my case I feel it was a bad design from construction thru repair and I feel your picture helps illustrate this.
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Old 07-22-2022, 09:12 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by dznf0g View Post
I believe AS already recognized this as a warranty issue, my dealer has and it has been noted on my first warranty service. Currently mine has been reviewed and is only cosmetic.


That is certainly valid, and perhaps the subject of a specific thread. That DOES NOT mean that you can or should silence those of us who want to find technical causes and fixes for the condition. We aren't all under warranty, by any stretch.



Go ahead and start a thread relative to warranty responsibility and any other action some would like to take. Hitch selection, spec'ing, and adjusting are all contributors to a less than robust design and build. No question....not a "wrong direction".[/QUOTE]



Keep looking at the hitch question. Keep in mind that:

1. It may be hitch related, but it may also not be hitch related.

2. If we can figure out the structural root cause, we might be able to find a cheap and effective fix or preventative for all.

To help with the hitch question, I volunteer to set up a public Google survey the drives a public spreadsheet. I notice reports here are not always as complete as we wish and the data is not tabulated. If a survey sounds good, what questions do you think it should have beyond:

Username on the forum
AS Model (include length/bed config) (short answer)
Front Compartment (yes/no)
Dimple at lower corner (yes/no)
Dimple anywhere else around compartment (yes/no)

Hitch setup (if more than one setup used, list the setup used when dimples appeared if yoi have dimples):
- Hitch Make (short answer)
- Hitch Model/rating (short answer)
- Tow Vehicle make/model (short answer)
- Tow Vehicle relevant options/packages (e.g. max tow, 4x4, off-road, increased payload, etc)
- Weight distribution percentage observed (short answer)
- Other configuration info you wish to share (e.g., Lbracket distance/elevation, number of washers, etc.) (long answer)

Other Hitch setups used (long answer)

Any other comments about your AS or hitch setup (long answer)
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Old 07-22-2022, 09:20 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rufusd7 View Post
That is certainly valid, and perhaps the subject of a specific thread. That DOES NOT mean that you can or should silence those of us who want to find technical causes and fixes for the condition. We aren't all under warranty, by any stretch.



Go ahead and start a thread relative to warranty responsibility and any other action some would like to take. Hitch selection, spec'ing, and adjusting are all contributors to a less than robust design and build. No question....not a "wrong direction".


Keep looking at the hitch question. Keep in mind that:

1. It may be hitch related, but it may also not be hitch related.

2. If we can figure out the structural root cause, we might be able to find a cheap and effective fix or preventative for all.

To help with the hitch question, I volunteer to set up a public Google survey the drives a public spreadsheet. I notice reports here are not always as complete as we wish and the data is not tabulated. If a survey sounds good, what questions do you think it should have beyond:

Username on the forum
AS Model (include length/bed config) (short answer)
Front Compartment (yes/no)
Dimple at lower corner (yes/no)
Dimple anywhere else around compartment (yes/no)

Hitch setup (if more than one setup used, list the setup used when dimples appeared if yoi have dimples):
- Hitch Make (short answer)
- Hitch Model/rating (short answer)
- Tow Vehicle make/model (short answer)
- Tow Vehicle relevant options/packages (e.g. max tow, 4x4, off-road, increased payload, etc)
- Weight distribution percentage observed (short answer)
- Other configuration info you wish to share (e.g., Lbracket distance/elevation, number of washers, etc.) (long answer)

Other Hitch setups used (long answer)

Any other comments about your AS or hitch setup (long answer)[/QUOTE]

Other (non front compartment units) front wall bulging?
Other (non front compartment units) skin cracking or deformation?
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Old 07-22-2022, 09:24 AM   #148
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"2. If we can figure out the structural root cause, we might be able to find a cheap and effective fix or preventative for all."

There is a reason, I suspect, that waaaay back in the old days, there used to be a "front hold down plate".
It would be much more difficult to design one in a front compartment model. If I ever have to replace the front center skin panel on mine (if the crack begins to run again), I will be fabricating and installing one.
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Old 07-22-2022, 09:32 AM   #149
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Here is a thread showing an example of the kind of damage I had, although his crack is much longer than mine. Twin battery compartment models used for many years.

He installed a front hold down plate. I would take mine all the way out to the two vertical ribs over the a-frame members.

https://www.airforums.com/forums/f38...avy-98728.html
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Old 07-22-2022, 11:50 AM   #150
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There's a misconception here that front storage models are weaker. This is not true. It creates more rigid areas susceptible to stress risers. Areas where forces are concentrated and magnified.

Consider what would be in that space if there was no storage door - straight sheet metal without additional framing. Sheet can be stronger in tensile. But offers little strength in compression. The forces creating dimples are those of upward compression forces from the frame which happens on all models. Just that non-storage door models may not show symptoms because the sheet metal will distribute and flex across the whole panel without stress risers and distortion.

These forces are from
1) Load carrying at the hitch
2) Dynamic forces driving down the road

- magnified by -

3) Spring rates of the TV increasing peak dynamic forces on the tongue
4) WD tension loads on the tongue
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Old 07-22-2022, 12:29 PM   #151
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Would agree with your summary of the contributing forces.

Just to point out - RB models (without front storage compartment) do indeed have different framing, as seen in these diagrams from the parts book. Specifically there are 2 support ribs extending all the way to the frame on RB models, in place of the front compartment on FB models.

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Old 07-22-2022, 05:21 PM   #152
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I don’t have a FB model but have experienced front end separation and have some observations that may be helpful to this conversation.

Background: trailer is 2017 Classic 30 RBQ. Hitch is a propride. In 2021 went to Alaska and on the way back to US experienced some severe frost heaves and pot holes. When we returned home we noticed the lower rub rail was loose across the front. Did a simple re-rivet job to re-attach the rail without realizing beneath the rail more rivets had sheared off. Took the trailer to Canada this year and along the way experienced a short very bad road (emptied the galley lockers) and immediately noticed the same rub rail was loose again. Did not realize the level of damage and over the next few week all remaining rivets in the now-weakened front end slowly sheared off - so we had complete separation from corner to corner.

Some observations, and in-camp experimenting to understand how this happened including trying to cover some comments in this thread:

1- with all the front rivets gone (corner-to-corner) and normal weight distribution applied, porpoising while driving significantly increased. This makes sense- the shell is absolutely rigid but the frame flexes - so the shell when full attached significantly increases the rigidity of the frame.

2- with the trailer normally loaded, not attached to the truck, and no stabilizers down, the front shell lifted off the frame by slightly more than 3/4ths inch. This surprised me- essentially the weight at the back of the trailer was lifting the front. I was dry camping with about 50% black tank full (~160lbs) and 60 % grey tank (~240lbs?). I emptied the grey (emptying the black was not an option), the the front settled very slightly- much less than 1/8 inch. Then I emptied the rear compartment- power cord, lawn chairs, a table - probably less than 40 lbs- and the front came down almost 1/4 inch. My takeaway was the leverage of any weight the rear compartment was much, much more significant that I had imagined.

3- I hooked the truck up and applied normal weight distribution expecting a significant change in the shell-to-frame gap. There was none - zero change.

4 - I had my 125lb wife get on the truck bumper and bounce up/down - absolutely no change in the gap while the truck (and trailer) moved. I got on the bumper too - and we couldn’t see any change although I was not immediately at the trailer to actually make a measurement as before.

5 - I had my wife get on the rear bumper of the trailer. Just her stepping on the back increased to gap >>1/3 inch. With her jumping the gap oscillated between zero (gap closed) to over 1.25 inch. My takeaway is the the dominant force that sheared the rivets was the back end movement which is greatly impacted negatively by any weight aft of the trailer axles and particularly any weight in the aft compartment.

6 - just for fun I asked my wife to go inside by the rear bed and jump up/down as before. Note this is probably about 3 feet forward from the rear bumper. The gap oscillated between 0.9 inch max to 0.5 inch Min- quite a bit less than before.

7- putting down the rear stabilizer closed the gap. I didn’t intend to really lift the back and don’t believe that they were down “harder” than normal. It kinda gives me pause on how much stress the stabilizer can introduce on the frame. I pulled up the rear stabilizer and the put down the front stabilizer expecting a big change but much to my surprise there was none - zero. This seems to reinforce the thought that the primary impact on the front stress is rear weight and rear movement.

Now in my case the rivets sheared by the shell pulling up, off the frame. This is evident by the rivet hole enlargement and tearing in the aluminum panels. There is a steel channel around the trailer floor/frame with a 3/4 lip which the shell lays over and is then riveted to. There was no pattern to the rivets (and a few screws) but they numbered about 20 across. Some were buck rivets, some were pop rivets. All the ones I found appeared to be aluminum. I think this attachment is a marginal design given what I saw the rear-end forces can do.

For those experiencing dimples I suspect its down force, but I suspect the influencing dynamic forces are the same.

I think all airstreams have the identical forces and some FB models are just weaker due to the hatch.

At this point I doubt weight distribution is the primary factor although it may be secondary.

I do believe that if the shell was more robustly attached to the frame across a larger surface area, no one would experience any separation over the life of their trailer.
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Old 07-22-2022, 06:46 PM   #153
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Interesting observations about the weight in the rear affecting the gap in the front. I wonder if there is any research to show if carrying considerable weight in the rear or carrying a heavily loaded bike rack can be a contributing factor in front end problems.
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Old 07-23-2022, 08:33 AM   #154
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Rufus - perhaps add a question regarding weight of the hitch? Battery type i.e. AGMs versus lithium versus acid; propane tank size, twin beds versus queen (which is covered in your config question) etc can significantly alter weight on the front end.
Also consider asking if tow vehicle/truck has air bags on rear suspension.
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Old 07-23-2022, 08:48 AM   #155
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Pete B55 - wow! Thank you for the detailed description of your front end separation problem and the potential causes explored with your testing. Very informative, lots to think about. It makes me think I should minimize storage in my galley area - which is in the rear for my AS's configuration.
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Old 07-23-2022, 12:23 PM   #156
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My stock F350 SRW diesel with a payload capacity of slightly over 4,000 lbs does not need anything but an appropriate ball and shank to tow my 28ft International. Ford's manual and CAT's scale verify this. Some people may need extra hitch help, but most 3/4 and 1-ton pickups don't for most Airstream trailers. One should consult their manufacturer's manual and advice.
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Old 07-23-2022, 02:57 PM   #157
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Equalizer Hitch: 25/27 FBQ Model Indents? 😞

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatLee View Post
Rufus - perhaps add a question regarding weight of the hitch? Battery type i.e. AGMs versus lithium versus acid; propane tank size, twin beds versus queen (which is covered in your config question) etc can significantly alter weight on the front end.
Also consider asking if tow vehicle/truck has air bags on rear suspension.


Great suggestions! Thank you.

Looks like a question about back end weight is also of value.

Maybe typical travel tongue weight if known.
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Old 07-24-2022, 08:14 AM   #158
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I was told that it was my Equalizer Hitch was being towed by a F350 as being too stiff by the Airstream Dealer.

My Warranty expires in August 2022. But since it is my fault... it is not covered. I scanned the Airstream Dealer's report to me, which I had to ask for since they were waving me off the lot. It was typed up for me... special.

I do not recall where the posted scans are today. I can no longer post any photographs or illustrations as I have exceeded my limit.
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Old 07-24-2022, 05:01 PM   #159
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Point of Fact

That is certainly valid, and perhaps the subject of a specific thread. That DOES NOT mean that you can or should silence those of us who want to find technical causes and fixes for the condition. We aren't all under warranty, by any stretch.

Go ahead and start a thread relative to warranty responsibility and any other action some would like to take. Hitch selection, spec'ing, and adjusting are all contributors to a less than robust design and build. No question....not a "wrong direction".[/QUOTE]

I was stating a fact to help clarify and remove concern that this issue is being ignored. It was not to quall discussion of its cause.
I watched mine happen and know the exact cause
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Old 07-24-2022, 05:18 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick tracy View Post
That is certainly valid, and perhaps the subject of a specific thread. That DOES NOT mean that you can or should silence those of us who want to find technical causes and fixes for the condition. We aren't all under warranty, by any stretch.



Go ahead and start a thread relative to warranty responsibility and any other action some would like to take. Hitch selection, spec'ing, and adjusting are all contributors to a less than robust design and build. No question....not a "wrong direction".


I was stating a fact to help clarify and remove concern that this issue is being ignored. It was not to quall discussion of its cause.

I watched mine happen and know the exact cause[/QUOTE]Perhaps I am not understanding your "wrong direction " comment. Could you clarify? I took it as....we shouldn't focus on root cause and solutions, but apply pressure on AS to repair.
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