Equalizer Hitch: 25/27 FBQ Model Indents? :(

[OrangeCrush]

Originally Posted by rufusd7

In light of your latest hypothesis: What do you recommend for instrumentation? Would an MPU-6050 + RPi be sufficient? What would we need for the recording sample rate? Would 1 be enough? Where would I attach it/them?

This setup would be cheap and easy to implement.

Well it would be quite a project and depends on your budget and time. If I was working for a company with decent budget and needed data quickly I would order accelerometers, strain gauges, and data loggers from Omega. When you start dealing with component level parts you will have to worry about calibration and drift which could take up a major part of your time. I think you could build a cheap Pi solution but would at least stick with proven components like Analog Devices for accelerometers. I would probably target 20hz sample rate minimum. Once you have data you have to do something with it. If you have the budget import it into Matlab and develop some scripts to do plots and analysis. On the cheap use NumPy.

[Ray Eklund]

I have an American Society of Safety Engineers "Elected Member" 8 inch by 11.5 inch diploma 'thing' dated 1973. Obviously they know I am into Safety. Your and my safety.

I also worked for OSHA from 1970 to 1972. Met all kinds of people. Most were alive and had intact bodies. Some were not alive and needed explanations how this could happen and why. Some were missing body parts. Almost ALL from disregarding 'Common Sense' at their work place.

Hitches, trailers and tow vehicles fall into the Common Sense...department. Some individuals have little or no Common Sense as it is not Common, at all. I know... read my first sentences.

I had seen it all... and more. Interviewing people was an ART after a serious accident... and a way to get valuable information by not using a Hitch, Sway Bars or Weight Distribution but Common Sense on the Ball, kind of logic.

I have no Idea WHY Airstream is avoiding taking care of the FBQ Models with the Indents that have split. My previous sentences mean NOTHING, even though I practice Safety every time I attach my Airstream or Oliver to my 2016 F350 Diesel 4x4 with Bed shell.

I towed a 2016 25 foot International with a Tundra and used the same Equalizer Hitch with 750# bars on the 25 foot ... No Front Indents. After Selling the Tundra as being too 'light' for a 25 foot, the 2019 F350 came into play. Aaaaaah.

Safer and rode smoother. Yes... 'I have the Safety Certificate'.

I purchased a 27FBQ in 2019, used the F350 and the dealer's Equalizer Hitch, 1000# bars, newly installed on the Dealer's Lot. Discovered... I did not need the 1000# for Sway Control... and definitely NOT for Weight Distribution.

Again... I have the 'Safety Certificate'... you do not. I have towed the 27FBQ 'safely' without incident or concern... once I became aware of Sway Control and Weight Distribution was not necessary for a 3/4 or 1 ton tow vehicle.

I discovered the I could tow on the Ball using the Hitch and Shank, but no WD Bars. Ahhhh. Again. Did not even hear about Indents on the FBQ models. Why? Because I did not even know about them... and then discovered I had them.

Those explaining Shank Lengths is rather... Safety Adverse... in my Opinion, even though I have the whatever.

There are TWO or more important points about a Shank Length:

1- A proper length Shank with Ball needs to be long enough, so when you drop the tail gate of the pickup, it will drop without hitting the Power Jack. Even if you rotate the top 45 degrees... I do not. The tail gate drops and clears easily.

2- When you turn sharply... a shank of proper length will CLEAR THE GRAVEL GUARDS AND THE TAIL LIGHTS OF YOUR TOW VEHICLE. I learned that lesson with the 23 foot and a SHORT SHANK.

All this Fulcrum and WD and Soft Ride... is BS. This same equipment with other Airstream Models caused... NO DAMAGE TO THE FRONT ENDS. Only the Front Bed Models with Storage Compartment.

F R O N T BED M O D E L S. Not other models... front bed models with storage compartment in front. OK?

It is not the length of trailer that creates the Indents with Any Hitch, but the Front Bed Models with Storage Compartments in the FRONT.

My F350 has suffered NO Damage. My 25 foot International suffered NO Damage. Just my 27FBQ did. So, did I become stupid, ignorant from what the Dealer provided was poorly chosen and should have my official Engineer Certificate revoked because I believe the Airstream Dealer knew what they were providing me was... NOT PROPER OR CORRECT?

When something 'smells as not being a 14" Cherry Pie, but a 14" Cow Paddy', it could be someone is trying to bury something stinky and that stinky could cost a LOT OF MONEY. OSHA experience tells me I am looking at the Cow Patty and not a Cherry Pie.

It all comes down to 'taste'. If you like one over the other.

Common Sense will take you to the front door and seek the answer of WHOM is responsible. The Cherry Tree or the Cattle Rancher. Same applies to Trailers.

My Oliver Elite II towed on the BALL of a F350... has NO indents as of today. I looked. It is a Cherry Pie.

[Genebuilder]

Just read that Oliver trailers just got recalled for axle issues similar to what’s going on with Airstream axles.

[Ray Eklund]

Originally Posted by Genebuilder

Just read that Oliver trailers just got recalled for axle issues similar to what’s going on with Airstream axles.

****

I read that the Wheel Bearings used some hardware that fails. A washer?

The recall was within a range of Serial Numbers and some had and some did not have some particular axle. It is on the Oliver Forum... I believe. Mine is a 2019 and older than those covered.

This is also going to be a Big Stink in the RV Parts and Equipment failures.

[Ray Eklund]

Has anyone found a requirement, as to What Hitch to Use with any model or length of Airstream and Which Tow Vehicles, at the time of purchasing the Airstream or SOB, are appropriate for any model or length of Airstream as being... proper or not proper?

If so, could you scan that for all of us to read to understand our responsibilities to tow safely?

OSHA was a blank sheet in 1970. States or Federal. The Electrical Code, Fire Codes and other previous Safety Codes were adopted entirely. One sentence would make the current and later revisions or additions as Promulgated Laws, or something to that effect. I was 21 years old when all this occurred in Wyoming.

We then had specific Codes for the State like the Oil Well Drilling and Servicing. Mining was not part of OSHA regulations, as an example.

Among these Codes and Additions to any current rules and regulations, were voted upon or amended, as Legal Rules and Regulations within the State of Wyoming at the time.

We used Terms:

Should and Should Not
Shall and Shall Not

Should was a choice acceptable or not a serious threat to injury, but suggested.

Shall was a requirement or not. Very specific and wording that intended to make it clear to someone reading the requirement(s).

Example: "You Shall Not smoke a cigarette while dispensing gasoline"... kind of specific example but with wording used in a legal sense when in print. Common Sense to some, to others... an oh well to others.

Oily Rags in a can, near an Oxygen tank, was a common explosion creator and found in routine inspections of garages in the 1970's as an example, as well.

So.....:

Has anyone found in an Airstream Manual "You SHALL or SHOULD" concerning Hitches and which Should, Should Not, Shall or Shall Not be used?

What would be the consequences of using an improper hitch setup or tow vehicle?

I know of none. Safety Rules and Regulations were designed to alert an Industry of proper safety standards, and some had wording to add to the SHALL or SHOULD.

I have not read: You Shall Not use an Equalizer Hitch with Bars on a particular or any trailer. You Should use a Hitch? You Shall? Towing on the Ball? Shall or Should, or absent?

Lawyers read these before being put into print or not put into print. This was my experience as a young Safety Guy learning.

The should of, could of ,exemption of whose at Fault. We called it.

I am sure the Hitch manufacturer has this written into their manual? I do not know. There often are plenty of 'Should' like tire air pressure? Although not Shells?

My opinion is the indents and later splits are more cosmetic if caught early. It is still a defect in design. My other two Airstreams and current Oliver Elite II did not have this issue... and I tow the same and use similar hitches.

I would like to read this. Since it is not a Safety Issue... the consumer may have only the protection of a warranty, at best. It also seems to be selective as to whom and which person or mode still under warranty is covered? Some are and some are not considered warranty issues. Some are out of warranty and covered.

Just thinking. The target moves and so does blame. Did I end up with the wrong Hitch and wrong Tow Vehicle for any of my Airstreams?

Is there any wording specific to AVOID any hitch brand or range of SC and WD? There seem to be plenty of opinions but anything specific, other than random choices that are given with the trailer of any brand, by the Dealer and attached to a vehicle owned by the person who purchased the trailer?

Just words for thought... this is a discussion to understand how and why.

[zapper]

"F R O N T BED M O D E L S. Not other models... front bed models with storage compartment in front. OK?"

Hmm? Sounds pretty specific. Are you sure? I mean it limits the conversation to possible practical solutions or factors bearing on the dimple problem you want to solve. Oh...that WAS the point.

[zapper]

When I bought by AS's the conventional dealer wisdom was you needed at least a WD systems regardless of the configuration/size of the TV. With one AS the dealer recommended an Equalizer system, with the other I asked for a BO system. Neither dealer set up the hitch systems correctly on the TV. I suppose if I had gotten into an accident and could prove that the hitch system was installed incorrectly and thereby contributed to the accident, I could have had a claim against the dealers, maybe. Being a newbie having a false sense of security at the time, I wouldn't have known the difference. Like most folks it takes a while to figure out that something isn't quite right with the handling, and you read up and talk to others to see if your observation is correct and what can be done about it. My point is the dealer to some degree will have some responsibility if they recommend a specific hitch system, they will have more responsibility if they "knew" that the system could cause damage to your TT. Likewise, if the manufacture "knew" that the system could cause damage to a TT. Proving it is another issue. The problem with dimples in AS FB w/ Storage Compartment in the FRONT (FBWSCITF)is there are huge number of variables with a single constant (FBWSCITF). First to find out are there any (FBWSCITF) being towed w/o a WD or sway system? If so, do they have dimples or not? If they do, then it's clear it's a manufacturing problem. Second, if no dimples then it's a hitch system problem and becomes more a more complex problem sorting out the hitches. So.......

ARE THERE ANY FRONT BEDROOM AIRSTREAMS WITH STORAGE COMPARTMENTS IN THE FRONT (ANY LENGTH), TOWING WITHOUT A WEIGHT DITRIBUTION OR ANTIWAY HITCH OF ANY KIND (BARE BALL) CURRENTLY HAVE DIMPLES? PLEASE REPLY WITH A SIMPLE YES OR NO.

[Wazbro]

Originally Posted by zapper

When I bought by AS's the conventional dealer wisdom was you needed at least a WD systems regardless of the configuration/size of the TV. With one AS the dealer recommended an Equalizer system, with the other I asked for a BO system. Neither dealer set up the hitch systems correctly on the TV. I suppose if I had gotten into an accident and could prove that the hitch system was installed incorrectly and thereby contributed to the accident, I could have had a claim against the dealers, maybe. Being a newbie having a false sense of security at the time, I wouldn't have known the difference. Like most folks it takes a while to figure out that something isn't quite right with the handling, and you read up and talk to others to see if your observation is correct and what can be done about it. My point is the dealer to some degree will have some responsibility if they recommend a specific hitch system, they will have more responsibility if they "knew" that the system could cause damage to your TT. Likewise, if the manufacture "knew" that the system could cause damage to a TT. Proving it is another issue. The problem with dimples in AS FB w/ Storage Compartment in the FRONT (FBWSCITF)is there are huge number of variables with a single constant (FBWSCITF). First to find out are there any (FBWSCITF) being towed w/o a WD or sway system? If so, do they have dimples or not? If they do, then it's clear it's a manufacturing problem. Second, if no dimples then it's a hitch system problem and becomes more a more complex problem sorting out the hitches. So.......

ARE THERE ANY FRONT BEDROOM AIRSTREAMS WITH STORAGE COMPARTMENTS IN THE FRONT (ANY LENGTH), TOWING WITHOUT A WEIGHT DITRIBUTION OR ANTIWAY HITCH OF ANY KIND (BARE BALL) CURRENTLY HAVE DIMPLES? PLEASE REPLY WITH A SIMPLE YES OR NO.

Well there was someone who reported having the dimples on his new trailer before it was hooked up to his truck. Many people have said that the pros that deliver trailers to dealers only tow on the ball. Does that count?

(I know, no proof what that pro did while delivering that trailer.)

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by Wazbro

Well there was someone who reported having the dimples on his new trailer before it was hooked up to his truck. Many people have said that the pros that deliver trailers to dealers only tow on the ball. Does that count?

(I know, no proof what that pro did while delivering that trailer.)

I have seen many delivery pros with wd hitches. Maybe 50%? I've also seen some with really bad height adjustments. Lazy? Ignorant? Don't care? Who knows.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Airstream Forums mobile app

[rufusd7]

Can someone explain why we are all looking at the hitch setup when it is irrelevant to getting help for owners?

Nobody in this thread is going against AS instructions by using this WD hitch vs. that one. Even if the hitches are not ideally set up, an RV should be designed and manufactured to handle such road stresses. All the other AS models do. Designs should have engineering safety factors that cover this, and if they don’t, they are flawed.

My point is that our focus should be on what is wrong with these AS models and supporting each other to get AS to take responsibility for their mistake. These models should work with any hitch used as they are typically used. This thread’s title sends us in the wrong direction by highlighting the hitch. Perhaps I should have let it die and started a new one….

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by rufusd7

Can someone explain why we are all looking at the hitch setup when it is irrelevant to getting help for owners?

Nobody in this thread is going against AS instructions by using this WD hitch vs. that one. Even if the hitches are not ideally set up, an RV should be designed and manufactured to handle such road stresses. All the other AS models do. Designs should have engineering safety factors that cover this, and if they don’t, they are flawed.

My point is that our focus should be on what is wrong with these AS models and supporting each other to get AS to take responsibility for their mistake. These models should work with any hitch used as they are typically used. This thread’s title sends us in the wrong direction by highlighting the hitch. Perhaps I should have let it die and started a new one….

Sure, if we can prevent someone from incurring these damages by discussing root causes and potential interventions (ie. proper hitches and setups) then a public forum has done its job.

In other words, we got what we got...what do we do to protect it.

[Genebuilder]

Words of wisdom. Amen, brother.

[rufusd7]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Sure, if we can prevent someone from incurring these damages by discussing root causes and potential interventions (ie. proper hitches and setups) then a public forum has done its job.



In other words, we got what we got...what do we do to protect it.

Sure. Protect what you have, but that may be a pointless exercise in this case.

1. Don’t lose sight of the primary cause. This is a design flaw.

2. If under warranty (and maybe even if not), this should be covered.

3. The secondary factor seems more likely that unavoidable pothole than the hitch selection.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by rufusd7

Sure. Protect what you have, but that may be a pointless exercise in this case.

1. Don’t lose sight of the primary cause. This is a design flaw.

2. If under warranty (and maybe even if not), this should be covered.

3. The secondary factor seems more likely that unavoidable pothole than the hitch selection.

Well, I certainly understand your frustration, but I don't believe it is pointless.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Airstream Forums mobile app

[Ray Eklund]

Originally Posted by rufusd7

Can someone explain why we are all looking at the hitch setup when it is irrelevant to getting help for owners?

Nobody in this thread is going against AS instructions by using this WD hitch vs. that one. Even if the hitches are not ideally set up, an RV should be designed and manufactured to handle such road stresses. All the other AS models do. Designs should have engineering safety factors that cover this, and if they don’t, they are flawed.

My point is that our focus should be on what is wrong with these AS models and supporting each other to get AS to take responsibility for their mistake. These models should work with any hitch used as they are typically used. This thread’s title sends us in the wrong direction by highlighting the hitch. Perhaps I should have let it die and started a new one….

*****

EXCELLENT. I have experience with only the Equalizer. I can only comment on that brand.

The structural weakness is an Airstream Engineering miscalculation to add extra access to a storage area, under the Queen Bed in my case... all Front Beds? It would become expensive for Corporate to FIX ALL THAT ARE ON the ROAD. The warranty clock is ticking... mine expired this July.

Do not be shut down... in your opinions. You are on the spot and please, keep thinking outside the traditional thought process.

More members towing an Airstream should mention their Hitch and if they have had any sign of indents. The more information, the better.

I emailed some time ago, too long to recall... and never received a response. I do not blame them. Airstream JC has no reason to respond, as well.

I have done what I could for the Indent Situation. Others may want to do that themselves. So far, towing on the Ball, using the Equalizer Shank and Ball without incident. Give me time... and I am watching closely the curb side indent and Storage Hinge, that some complain they are stuck, shifted outward on the top for water entry... and who knows.

Some prefer to... Shhhhhh. The Greeks would kill the messenger with Bad News about a Battle. I may have had better success if I had... Shhhhhh. Just not my style.

[rufusd7]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Well, I certainly understand your frustration, but I don't believe it is pointless.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Airstream Forums mobile app

I am not frustrated. My point is: don’t get distracted by the hitch question. We haven’t found a correlation between the issue and hitches.


Possibility 1: such a correlation doesn’t exist.

Conclusion 1: It’s a design or manufacturing flaw, and AS should step up and fix it.


Possibility 2: such a correlation exists, and we don’t yet have enough data to see it.

Conclusion 2: It’s a design or manufacturing flaw, and AS should step up and fix it.

Without a warning to the contrary, an AS should not be dimpled by any of the hitches mentioned. These hitches are all very popular with AS owners, are recommended/installed by certified AS dealers, and have been around for ages.

[pteck]

Originally Posted by rufusd7

I am not frustrated. My point is: don’t get distracted by the hitch question. We haven’t found a correlation between the issue and hitches.


Possibility 1: such a correlation doesn’t exist.

Conclusion 1: It’s a design or manufacturing flaw, and AS should step up and fix it.


Possibility 2: such a correlation exists, and we don’t yet have enough data to see it.

Conclusion 2: It’s a design or manufacturing flaw, and AS should step up and fix it.

Without a warning to the contrary, an AS should not be dimpled by any of the hitches mentioned. These hitches are all very popular with AS owners, are recommended/installed by certified AS dealers, and have been around for ages.

And I'd encourage you not to get distracted either with what seemingly is a strong confirmation bias on your part.

[rufusd7]

Originally Posted by pteck

And I'd encourage you not to get distracted either with what seemingly is a strong confirmation bias on your part.

A confirmation bias requires confirmation of a bias. What am I see that confirmed my "bias"?

[pteck]

Originally Posted by rufusd7

A confirmation bias requires confirmation of a bias. What am I see that confirmed my "bias"?

Sure looks like you've already decided what your conclusion is.

[rufusd7]

Picture attached. Click for larger view. Dimple at or near the axis of lever arm?