Do I need an anti sway hitch?

[urnmor]

Do you need an anti sway hitch No. Do you need an AS No. D o you have and AS Yes. Protect your investment install the anti sway system and besides it adds an additional level of safety when towing

[Bobbo]

Originally Posted by Bobbo

PM sent with one of the studies. That will do until I receive your study that proves your assertion.

I was requested to post this study in the thread by out of sight, so here it is.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4e8...336eef1e34.pdf

But, so far I have not gotten more of his "study" than was posted in this thread.

[Bobbo]

Originally Posted by out of sight

OK children. Control yourselves. We're one step away from the bottom of the pyramid.

No. We are at "contradiction." No one has done an "ad hominem," much less "name calling."

[out of sight]

Originally Posted by Bobbo

I was requested to post this study in the thread by out of sight, so here it is.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4e8...336eef1e34.pdf

But, so far I have not gotten more of his "study" than was posted in this thread.

Yes. I've seen that study. It agrees with everything I've been saying.

[Bobbo]

Originally Posted by out of sight

So if you advise people to get a properly sized tow vehicle you are a danger to the community. Interesting theory.

Yes, with one caveat. The caveat is you recommend not getting sway control. Because a "properly sized tow vehicle" can not keep a trailer from swaying side to side. It merely keeps the tow vehicle from being overwhelmed by that sway. You seem to think that a trailer swaying side to side is OK if the tow vehicle can keep its lane.

[Bobbo]

Originally Posted by out of sight

Yes. I've seen that study. It agrees with everything I've been saying.

Post your analysis showing it agrees with everything you are saying please.

[out of sight]

Here is another paper on trailer stability. This one focuses more on the evils of weight distribution.

https://eur05.safelinks.protection.o...%3D&reserved=0

[out of sight]

Note that these trailer stability discussions go back to at least the 1970's and there is now widespread agreement in the automotive engineering community as to the relevant issues. They are generally summarized in this simplified chart:

[Bill M.]

To be absolutely fair about it. The pickup truck manufacturers suggest now 25% to 50% FALR instead of 100%. The reason given is that with 100% FALR there is more danger of the truck/trailer jackknifing under severe braking. The trailer just pushes the truck around. That puts the truck in a good position to roll. Out of Sight seems to refer to this as oversteer.

To me, that does not translate to do not use a WD hitch. It does suggest not to use too much WD. I can tell when I go 1 link too far on my WD on my 2500. Steering feels tighter and more precise but there is more influence on the rig from passing trucks. That happens when close to FALR.

[out of sight]

Someone recently posted that his 2020 GM 2500 manual recommends no more than 25% FALR. So now we're down to 0-25%. Probably 25% won't kill you, I just prefer 0%. This means I have to have a tow vehicle that can support the tongue weight of the trailer without overloading the rear axle.

[Adventure.AS]

Originally Posted by out of sight

Note that these trailer stability discussions go back to at least the 1970's and there is now widespread agreement in the automotive engineering community as to the relevant issues. They are generally summarized in this simplified chart:

This chart, which you have provided, counters your claim that a massive, large tow vehicle (weighing more than the trailer) is required to tow safely. It clearly indicates that when the trailer is loaded correctly, with about 15% tongue weight, a 1:1 tow vehicle to trailer weight ratio places the rig within the "Ideal ... Stability" envelope.

[Dan and Liz]

[QUOTE=out of sight;2332228]I've proven it by towing on the ball for over 12,000 miles with an adequately sized tow vehicle under all sorts of conditions and all sorts of roads. Try it. You'll soon be agreeing with me.

I’ve towed over 30,000 miles with a WD/antisway hitch without incident. My proof is at least 2-1/2 times as strong as yours.

[out of sight]

I've towed over 30k miles with a WD hitch. That is what lead me to abandon the hitch, get a bigger tow vehicle, and start towing on the ball. I never looked back. Try it.

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by out of sight

OK children. Control yourselves. We're one step away from the bottom of the pyramid.

Well - we’re close with the “ok children” comment but not quite there yet. Now, if someone were to say, “thanks for posting the pyramid chart, ass hat” then we’d have reached almost literally the bottom of the pyramid. Would you like to keep trying?

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by out of sight

Yes. I've seen that study. It agrees with everything I've been saying.

In addition to Bobbo's response, this paper does does not address the impact of weight distribution hitches on yaw damping, your claim is that properly set up yaw damping is degraded (it is not). It does not support your claim that no WD or anti-sway hitch is better than having and using one regardless of the settings. It does not agree with your claim that angular velocity (sway) at the articulation point does not occur if your tow vehicle is sufficiently large.

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by out of sight

Here is another paper on trailer stability. This one focuses more on the evils of weight distribution.

https://eur05.safelinks.protection.o...%3D&reserved=0

This paper demonstrates that you can't successfully overcome the effects of overloading vehicles that already have grossly inadequate suspension and steering response by installing an oversized WD hitch and transferring the excessive weight to the front and trailer axles. These vehicle do not represent in any way shape or form your faulty recommendation to go out and get yourself a massive tow vehicle.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by out of sight

OK children. Control yourselves. We're one step away from the bottom of the pyramid.

Now wait you benighted entity, I'm at the bottom...and proud of it.

Bob
🇺🇸

[Ray Eklund]

Very informative discussion. I have always used appropriate hitches for my trailer. Not because I know anything, but have not had an issue with trailer sway. To test Out of Sight's experience, I would have to experiment to know, for sure, by removing my hitch and tow on the Ball. (27 foot Airstream towed by a F350 Diesel)

When flying a Helicopter, experience was best to know one's options. Always be expecting an engine failure, loss of power and immediately know where you were going to give this LAST CHANCE for a soft landing. If any... This is the current discussion.

Parachutes were not an option within a Helicopter. Those who disagree, well think about it. At least for the pilot. You are auto rotating and experience takes practice WITH engine operating... from time to time. If you want to argue about it, fine with me. I am still posting on the Forum... you may not have a next opportunity.

When we travel the Interstates, East to West, cross winds are always a consideration. Wyoming is our favorite cross wind Empire on I-80. An 18 wheeler passes, the truck cab is several feet to the left in his lane and the trailer is OFTEN to his right coming to the white line. It forces me to move over just a bit, expecting this to occur. Must have something to do with the Cab and Trailer setup... not all do this. But you can see them coming... that is what your mirrors are for.

I appreciate the serious discussion. I have read about towing On the Ball with a heavy truck. Again... not something I want to test out myself.

Traveling at highway speeds, we pass a number of trailers. Mostly Some Other Brands as Airstreams are scarce in comparison. Those SOB's that begin to oscillate, sway in cycles of calm to wild, or appear unstable... we accelerate to pass and get far up the highway from them. When we pass Nancy looks and I glance at what kind of hitch system and tow vehicle is being used.

Our observations are an Undersized Tow Vehicle towing a oversized trailer/undersized tow vehicle on the Ball. The tow vehicle is dragging in the rear, the trailer is nose low. Not some of the time... but seems always this combination.

I find that our current Equalizer Hitch with 1,000 bars needs less effort to maintain a safe, near level towing. Never had sway. Never feared Cross Winds. You prepare for the possible need by 'feeling' the tug and your steering takes up the slack and once an 18 wheeler has passed, begin to readjust and transition back to a comfortable, secure ride.

The transition of an 18 wheeler creating a vacuum and the coming of the Cross Wind gives one plenty of experience... with several hundred miles of Wyoming's BEST.

I thank both sides of the conversation. BayouBiker and Out of Sight have more stamina than most.

When I first read this Thread... I was thinking of those poor souls stuck on the Cruise Ships due to the CoronaVirus situation. I think I would just jump overboard if it were this discussion.

At least on the Forum, I can just make my Death Wish, participating, and drive on safely and as FAST as I am capable.

[out of sight]

Well I can't really say the trailer is not swaying a few millimeters back there. All I can say is I don't notice it. Really, oscillatory sway (trailer instability on the chart) is not the problem. The problem is how some people may react to oscillatory sway. They try to over-correct and then they get themselves into a jackknife situation (tow vehicle instability on the chart). If a sway control device helps people with light tow vehicles to not overreact then it has some value. In this regard the best solution may be the $50 friction hitch, which does not extend the distance from the hitch ball to the rear axle. All the other hitches that combine weight distribution with sway control extend this distance and that will make it easier for the rig to jackknife. The Hensley, BTW, extends the distance more than any others I've seen.

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by out of sight

Someone recently posted that his 2020 GM 2500 manual recommends no more than 25% FALR. So now we're down to 0-25%. Probably 25% won't kill you, I just prefer 0%. This means I have to have a tow vehicle that can support the tongue weight of the trailer without overloading the rear axle.

You should be careful repeating hearsay without checking for yourself. The 2020 manual is self contradictory when it comes to the 2500. On the one hand it limits tongue weight without WD to 1200 lbs and 15% of trailer weight so an 8000 lb trailer implying a Class 4 hitch. We can stop there because no heaver trailer is allowed on a class 4 hitch.

I suppose if you were to install a class V hitch following the contradictory advice one could, with WD get to about 16,500 lb on the ball with the rear of the truck empty but using their advice, you have no way to get to the 20,000 towing capacity. Nice manual.....