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Old 02-15-2020, 10:38 AM   #81
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It used to be that truck manufacturers would try to out-bloviate the competition by bragging about their enormous towing capacity. Even though they had a vehicle whose rear axle could only withstand 1200 lbs tongue weight and a trailer of 8000 lbs they threw a WD hitch on it and called it 20,000 lbs. That may no longer be the case. Now they have all agreed to abide by the SAE towing standards and they have to pass the understeer and sway control tests. Axle loading is no longer the limiting factor - it's now the understeer test. At some point they will all come to the realization that they should disallow wd hitches. That will force people to buy larger, more expensive and more profitable trucks to pull their trailers. More money for them but the trailer manufacturers will suffer because people will be buying smaller trailers.
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Old 02-15-2020, 11:00 AM   #82
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1. And yet in 2020 for the 2500, GM seems to have failed to accurately advertise real towing capacity.
2. Your hysterics aside, WD hitches are not dangerous products that should be banned, and your fellow RV'ers are not the fools, in need of authority to make our choices for us, that you think we are. On the contrary, your fallacies, logical errors and insistence at diving into topics you don't understand suggests the opposite.
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Old 02-15-2020, 11:06 AM   #83
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Anti sway hitch - needed?

This is just to give you my personal experience.


We have pulled a 30 ft Airstream Trailer with a Ford F-350 pickup for 14 years. I TOTALLY wrecked our 1st trailer after 3 years as a result of a sway condition that I could not bring under control. Thru the Grace of God ( or dumb luck -- but I don't believe in luck.), I did not kill my wife or any other person. I was using a weight distribution hitch but had no sway control.


Four months prior to the TOTAL wreck we went on the AIrstream Caravan down the Baha Pen. in Mexico. Some of the caravan members used Hensley anti sway hitches. THey looked complicated to hitch up and occasionally people had a tough time hooking up. My wife and I swore we would never own a Hensley hitch.
After we TOTALED the 1st trailer - we took a big step back to consider what we needed to tow safely. I spoke to many people. The most vivid was a fellow AS. He said I have towed my trailer safely for 120,000 miles. "I would not have been able to tow my trailer safely with out an anti sway hitch.Like a Hensley."
I have spoken with several commercial trailer dealers who do not understand why I use an anti sway hitch. They say they have towed 100's of trailers to bring the trailers to their dealership and delivering trailers. My conclusion is that if I was out on the road every day with my Airstream, I would probably be safe with out an anti sway hitch. For me, the question that has been asked is a "life or death question". At least for me it was, and I am glad I had an opportunity consider this question twice.
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Old 02-15-2020, 12:17 PM   #84
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You don't need it until you do. Why take the risk? Since Day 1, I have used a ProPride for my 30' Classic. Given your 19' / 4K rig, this device may be considered by some to be overkill. That said, my traveling pleasure has definitely been enhanced knowing the ProPride is in place - never a white knuckle moment! Good luck - be safe.
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Old 02-15-2020, 12:27 PM   #85
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When I put my Propride on my entire towing experience got easier. I now felt in control. My wife could even tell I was more relaxed and that made her more relaxed. Worth every penny.
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Old 02-15-2020, 01:57 PM   #86
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Equalizer Hitch with 1000# bars: Anti Sway... or NOT?

I need to be... enlightened.

I have an Equalizer hitch with the two 1000# bars. Is this considered a NON anti-sway hitch? Used it for the 25 foot with a 2014 Tundra 4x4 and F350 and now the 27 foot Airstream towed by the F350 4x4 diesel.

I had an Equalizer hitch to tow the 2006 23 foot Safari towed with a 2006 Tundra and later a 2014 Tundra, with the chain drop springs, and it had an adjustable friction device you could manually adjust back in 2006... is THAT an ANTI-SWAY Hitch? I removed it the first year. Never had an issue before or after I removed it. In my opinion it was more of a liability than self adjusting every time the wind quit blowing or began... to pull over and make up some adjustment.

IF the current Equalizer Hitch I am using DOES NOT have anti-sway... then I have to go with Out of Sight. I have never had one event of sway, nor anything else remotely needing immediate attention.

So... I may not be the brightest Airstream owner on this Forum... where am I in this Pissing Contest?

Either I Do or I Do Not have a anti-sway system. Or do I need to own an overpriced complicated towing system?

If I do not... then I am 100% comfortable with my current set up. This then leads me to believe that NEW trailer owners, over react to a situation and end up in the ditch. Where are we?
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Old 02-15-2020, 02:11 PM   #87
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Well Ray... We all pi$$ in our own pots, if we are all happy with the pots we pi$$ in then we are all a bunch happy pi$$-pots.🤔

Happy piss Streaming...

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Old 02-15-2020, 02:25 PM   #88
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Bob... oh, you are bad.

Well Bob... We all Whiz in our own pots, if we are all happy with the posts we Whiz in then we all are a bunch of happy Whiz-pots.

Happy WhizStreaming... Today being pissed is an attitude.

Whizzing is an informal Noun: A person who is extremely clever at something. aka Whiz Kid. There were several other definitions, as well. Whiz to you, too.

Get with it. Pissed was used back before 1800. Whiz... at the same time. You probably watched WHIZ TV in 1953 in Ohio. It is still around. Whizzing on everyone who tunes in.

Are we pissing or whizzing on my Equalizer Hitch? Someone please give me some direction and quit whizzing on my tires. (This must have been something from my two year adventure in the US Army, 1969 to 1971.)

Pissed: Very annoyed, angry... or in the UK Drunk.
Whiz: Informal- Urinating. Each sentence must be analyzed before making comment. Whiz- Angry hornets whizzed as a group into your trailer. Kind of thing.

Those of you gawkers... look the terms up. Now what about my Equalizer?
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Old 02-15-2020, 02:57 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Eklund View Post
I need to be... enlightened.

I have an Equalizer hitch with the two 1000# bars. Is this considered a NON anti-sway hitch?
It is considered an anti-sway hitch. It has reasonably significant yaw damping properties in frictional resistance to angular velocity from the tension bars and the ball compression forces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Eklund View Post
... a 2014 Tundra, with the chain drop springs, and it had an adjustable friction device you could manually adjust back in 2006... is THAT an ANTI-SWAY Hitch?
This also increases yaw damping and has anti-sway properties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Eklund View Post
IF the current Equalizer Hitch I am using DOES NOT have anti-sway... then I have to go with Out of Sight. I have never had one event of sway, nor anything else remotely needing immediate attention.
Fortunately, you needn't move to the dark side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Eklund View Post
Either I Do or I Do Not have a anti-sway system. Or do I need to own an overpriced complicated towing system?

If I do not... then I am 100% comfortable with my current set up. This then leads me to believe that NEW trailer owners, over react to a situation and end up in the ditch. Where are we?
As Bob says, it depends on what pot you want to use.

If you're a white knuckle driver who reacts to every disturbance, and your trailer has a bit of heft to it, an expensive complicated system is just the ticket. If you tend not to slow down in wind storms, or you hug the yellow line, even when a semi passes the opposite direction, these hitches are almost mandatory.

If you are a fairly calm driver, you're reasonably cautious in wind and rain, you give semi's and freight trains wide birth, and your trailer has some heft to its frame, your hitch is not a bad choice (I find the square stock bars a bit stiff, but that's another topic). There are a number of other hitches that also work well in this situation.

If you are constantly aware of what is going on, you precisely adjust speed for conditions, you don't sweat over unexpected force impulses and you have a big **s tow vehicle, you may be one of those lucky unicorns that don't need to bother with fancy hitches or comprehensive insurance. With that kind of skill, you can probably avoid hail, lightning and tornado's too.
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Old 02-15-2020, 03:33 PM   #90
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Per Equal-I-Zer website:

"Integrated 4 Point Sway Control"

https://www.equalizerhitch.com/how-equalizer-works
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Old 02-15-2020, 03:59 PM   #91
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May BayouBiker and GCinSC2 be crowned Whizzerards and Whiz at will upon all who tow.

It would be welcomed to understand the History of Trailer Hitches. When were the First Sway Control hitches offered and why.

Trying to understand tow vehicle and trailer length/weight combinations and when does a combination require an Anti Sway Weight Distribution Hitch... and when can a combination tow 'on the ball'. The Long Long Trailer movie towed on the ball a 32 foot trailer with a station wagon in 1953/1954. Said to weigh 3 tons, sans rocks aboard?

It must have been true... and customary to tow with a station wagon... as my wife's parents did with smaller trailers, on the ball. True and post 1954.

I have heard plenty of discussion on 15" and 16" tires. Reasonable answers for either. None to everyone's satisfaction.

I have heard plenty of discussions on Hitches, as well. Simple hitches seem to be the step child to complicated, heavier chunks of iron and magical properties towing awake or sleeping.

Do trailer owners need to choose a hitch that compensates for the choice of a lighter tow vehicle to a trailer that exceeds the limits of physics and weight distribution? Much like Pandora's Box... curiosity of opening a mystical box that released misery, death and evil onto trailer owners? The Pandora's Box being the sophisticated Hitch assembly.

Good discussions need some additional information. My feeling is many owners tow with a vehicle not compatible with their choice of trailer. This includes Travel Trailers and flat bed trailers hauling automobiles or four tons of lumber.

... or am I putting the cart before the horse?
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Old 02-15-2020, 05:25 PM   #92
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Ray

Humbly decline the honor aside from carrying big wrenches and not being afraid to help a fellow camper tighten big bolts. I almost specialize in loose hitch ball nuts. Lost track of how many I’ve tightened and replaced a good amount too. And the hitch mfgr’s spent lots of time effort and $$$& to develop their system so call them! Watch their videos and RTFM!


Folks

Tremendous amount of this vs that info/theory/results and some out right questionable “alternative facts”. I honestly cannot offer opinions about how your hitch works compared to mine. Why, never used yours or driven your rig.

But IMHO each of us must make the decision of what is appropriate in THEIR situation.

Some wear sandals some strong boots. Some cook over coals some by credit card. Some enjoy an AS some use backpacking tents. Some are SUV folks others use a full size pickup.

Can we assist each other politely and offer a seat at our campfire pour a cup of Joe or maybe something stronger share a story and a favorite camp ?

Gary
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Old 02-15-2020, 05:49 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by out of sight View Post
Well I can't really say the trailer is not swaying a few millimeters back there. All I can say is I don't notice it. Really, oscillatory sway (trailer instability on the chart) is not the problem. The problem is how some people may react to oscillatory sway. They try to over-correct and then they get themselves into a jackknife situation (tow vehicle instability on the chart). If a sway control device helps people with light tow vehicles to not overreact then it has some value. In this regard the best solution may be the $50 friction hitch, which does not extend the distance from the hitch ball to the rear axle. All the other hitches that combine weight distribution with sway control extend this distance and that will make it easier for the rig to jackknife. The Hensley, BTW, extends the distance more than any others I've seen.
Here is your problem again. You are relying on YOUR experience with YOUR equipment to make recommendations to others about what to do with THEIR equipment, which is almost certain to be different from yours. You are not phrasing your opinions with "in my opinion" or "for me", you are pronouncing them as if they were engraved in stone on Mount Sinai and there is no safe alternative.

Oscillatory sway, can indeed, be the problem. If the trailer is swaying and the driver doesn't react at all, it is still a problem. There should be no sway. I agree that overreaction on the part of the driver makes the problem infinitely worse, but it is not the cause of the problem. Oscillatory sway is the cause of the problem. If the problem had not already existed, the driver would not have needed to react in the first place.
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Old 02-15-2020, 06:37 PM   #94
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Gary,

With all due respect, on inconsequential matters such as what shoe to wear or what beer tastes best, it may be best to happily let some people babble on without responding, but when we're talking about real world principles with real world consequences, your approach of just getting along seems irresponsible.
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Old 02-15-2020, 07:47 PM   #95
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Wow! nice thread. To assess if you will have a sway problem you must consider both TV and trailer characteristics. The TV to trailer weight ratio in this case is certainly in favor of no sway control needed but proper trailer loading procedures should still be followed. If good loading practices are followed then probably no sway control needed. If you must have something I would recommend the simple stand alone friction type sway device and no WDH.
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Old 02-16-2020, 06:35 AM   #96
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Gary,

With all due respect, on inconsequential matters such as what shoe to wear or what beer tastes best, it may be best to happily let some people babble on without responding, but when we're talking about real world principles with real world consequences, your approach of just getting along seems irresponsible.
Brian,

I don't have the engineering degree to analyze and explain all of the factors that apply to the myriad of possible scenarios TV vs TT etc. Some of my analogy was to mean that TV/hitch/AS rig works for you, great. Might not be right for someone else or me. Safe towing should be everyone's goal.

But I do have a lot of years of practical wrenching, fixing and in my previous career teaching about installing and function of the product for the automotive product line I spent 39 years in.

I have gone over my hitch and adjusted and monitor it's condition regularly.

Many of the tools I carry I likely will never use for me on my trip but if I get a chance to chat with someone or if I see a concern on your hitch head, I'll say hi and offer to show you and possibly assist in a correction.

Last year alone these fixes to others rigs. Oct I spotted an incorrect hitch ball on an Equal-I-Zer, shank was too long and interfered with spring arm socket movement. About the 4th one I've spotted. We replaced the ball in camp with correct shorter length. Alumaslider, spotted a loose hitch ball. VA Highland Haven a hitch head that WAS NOT tight against the shank. Bolts tight but head moved side to side sloppy. I carried a shim I had already made up and we fitted the shim and the bolts correctly tightened up and acted like clamps not pins. Same camp I showed another forum member how I made shims for my shank to receiver to really minimize the shank to receiver slop. Gave him a trial part and that lit a bulb in his mind.

None of that was irresponsible I didn't have to be nosy and offer tools and assistance to others.

For my own setup I made SS shims to really snug up the shank to receiver fit. Hand made and covering three sides. After a run with the new shims it felt like it was on rails to drive it.

Getting along includes helping each other and what works for me may not be right for you. I'm all for safe towing and enjoying our camping experience. I watched a single axle U-Haul go into tail wagging the dog event at highway speeds and completely roll the TV. No further details avail.

Brian, I'd gladly make a spot for you at my campfire.

Gary
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Old 02-16-2020, 07:21 AM   #97
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I guess I misunderstood your point Gary, I apologize you sound like a great guy and I'd love to have the chance to visit with you
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Old 02-16-2020, 08:53 AM   #98
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Quote:
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Well I can't really say the trailer is not swaying a few millimeters back there. All I can say is I don't notice it. Really, oscillatory sway (trailer instability on the chart) is not the problem. The problem is how some people may react to oscillatory sway. They try to over-correct and then they get themselves into a jackknife situation (tow vehicle instability on the chart). If a sway control device helps people with light tow vehicles to not overreact then it has some value. In this regard the best solution may be the $50 friction hitch, which does not extend the distance from the hitch ball to the rear axle. All the other hitches that combine weight distribution with sway control extend this distance and that will make it easier for the rig to jackknife. The Hensley, BTW, extends the distance more than any others I've seen.


What’s your take on the Anderson setup? Doesn’t extend the distance (which I agree is a bad thing) and adds very little additional weight. Seems to be the closest to towing on the ball without overdoing it like many others
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Old 02-16-2020, 09:50 AM   #99
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We use to define Expert: Someone from out of town carrying a brief case.

Today... the Internet works for me. Often, those who ask a question may already know the answer and are checking the source of information.

procarreviews.com has some good information.

Google: anti sway hitch invented

I am a geologist. I like minute details to 14,000 foot facts. The minute details often explain an entire mountain and why it exists. I know individuals who believe the Earth is 10,000 years old. OK... does a four or more billion years or three hundred years rounding error make any difference? No.

Trailer tires... www.westmarine.com could be a good place to begin for tires and... sway. Prevent... swaying, they say for ST trailer specific tires. Understand the basics and once you have a better understanding, make your decision. I will stay with my Michelin 16 inch E rated tires. They have been 100% reliable.

Anyone can 'show evidence' they have the facts and not just opinion on their side. It is not that simple. Hitches with a longer or shorter shank length can change towing characteristics. The other side... as well.

The tail lights on the 2014 Tundra 4x4 with a 2 inch Equalizer shank and chain springs changed how sharp I could turn. The tail light would push into the gravel guard into the top edge of the Airstream. This did not occur before, nor after the 2014. Experts... missed this one. My 23 foot Safari... did not miss and had this permanent dent.

Boats coming to Lake Mead, small and huge... seem to be all towing on the ball. How is this different than a trailer. Weight? Length? Or both. U Haul trailers being towed... wow... this would be an eye opener.

This is a discussion. Not a University classroom with the Expert in front of a class expressing their facts and opinions and everyone takes notes. Keep the discussion going and provide everyone with your points.

My understanding has to do with Tow Vehicles that are not capable of towing an oversized, heavier trailer of any brand. Add the modern hitch and have anyone cured any negative compatibility of a bad combination? I do not 'believe' so.

I am still not convinced of the previous discussions if one side is the only option or are there two convincing options? When a towing accident occurs, no one wants to admit to driver's error. We all should also be able to fly airplanes and drive 18 wheelers if we can tow a triple axle Airstream with a 1966 Bronco.
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Old 02-16-2020, 09:57 AM   #100
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All things being equal, I calculate the 4-8 inch additional extensions for most WD hitches and a standard sized truck will reduce the theoretical angle where irrecoverable jackknife occurs (in the absence of appropriate corrective action) at .2 to .3 degrees

The Anderson hitch is an interesting set-up. It takes a very unique and fairly effective approach to sway control, and accommodates backing and uneven terrain better than most. The friction and damping springs do wear out and will need to be replaced from time to time. It also has a tendency to get out of alignment when it is not set up correctly.

The Anderson hitch and several others also make use of asymmetric tension to counteract yaw these forces far overcome the .2-.3 degrees I mentioned above by a factor of 6-10.
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