Do I need an anti sway hitch?

[SteveSueMac]

Attachment 362275

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by mikextr

Here's a good quote from the article mentioned above:

“You have a trailer loaded improperly and the critical speed is 65 mph and you’re approaching that speed. The sway-control device is actually going to help eliminate those minor sways as you get close to speed, but once you get to 65 mph, it’s still going to go unstable. So it’s not going to correct the incorrect trailer loading. It actually might mask it so you don’t get a warning that you’re coming up on a bad condition.”

Just one of the reasons why I'll stick with freeballing.

Unfortunately it is misleading and generally incorrect. While a damper cannot overcome an incorrectly loaded trailer (with low tongue weight and center of gravity too far back) as stated, but it absolutely increases yaw damping and raises the critical speed in every single case so it improves sway stability of every trailer in every condition.

A better way to describe what they are saying is "if you're the kind of driver who does not take care to ensure your trailer is loaded properly and you tend to drive too fast, perhaps you should not add a sway damper so that you can hopefully get the crap scared out of you when approaching critical speed and maybe that will persuade you to slow down to a safe speed and stop to load your trailer properly before you kill someone".

There fixed it.

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by Profxd

(snip...) There’s no “guarantee” of anything in this world. If you can’t comprehend that concept all I can suggest is start learning and maybe refrain from giving out advice until you have the facts. There are many ways to raise that sway critical speed from both the trailer and TV side of things, the WDH isn’t recommended.

No sorry, A WDH, with weight distribution and sway control properly set up, is an excellent mechanism to increase sway stability and raise the critical speed. It is very commonly and properly recommended, but like most things, must be done correctly. It is good insurance, particularly on trailers with high yaw inertia where the weight practically must be spread from end to end rather than ideally concentrated near the Center of Gravity just forward of the trailer axle(s).

There are negative trade offs that many people using WD Hitches are not aware. One is it increases sheer stress on frame components and tends to increase structural damage in collisions, a second is that weight redistribution shifts your tow vehicle closer to neutral steering and over steer for which most drivers don't respond well without practice. For most drivers, under steer is preferred because sliding off the road is generally better than jackknife and rollover.

[Profxd]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

No sorry, A WDH, with weight distribution and sway control properly set up, is an excellent mechanism to increase sway stability and raise the critical speed. It is very commonly and properly recommended, but like most things, must be done correctly. It is good insurance, particularly on trailers with high yaw inertia where the weight practically must be spread from end to end rather than ideally concentrated near the Center of Gravity just forward of the trailer axle(s).

There are negative trade offs that many people using WD Hitches are not aware. One is it increases sheer stress on frame components and tends to increase structural damage in collisions, a second is that weight redistribution shifts your tow vehicle closer to neutral steering and over steer for which most drivers don't respond well without practice. For most drivers, under steer is preferred because sliding off the road is generally better than jackknife and rollover.

The Hensley design is the only one that can make such a claim about sway, other designs are just an extra added measure and should not be relied upon to keep you safe from sway. Look at the disclaimer about your vehicle sway control, the sway control on hitch is no different.

[Profxd]

A quote from a RAM user manual about TSC, notice it doesn’t say stop and tighten the WDH.

”If TSC activates while driving, slow the vehicle down, stop at the nearest safe location, and adjust the trailer load to eliminate trailer sway.“

[Profxd]

Well Ford doesn’t say tighten or check the WDH either should you experience sway.

“The first thing to do is slow your vehicle down, then pull safely to the side of the road and check for proper tongue load and trailer load distribution.”

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Profxd

A quote from a RAM user manual about TSC, notice it doesn’t say stop and tighten the WDH.

”If TSC activates while driving, slow the vehicle down, stop at the nearest safe location, and adjust the trailer load to eliminate trailer sway.“

It is almost as if they assume that some people may sometimes tow trailers that don't use WD equipment, for whatever reason. Reasons like surge brakes, U-Haul rentals, and so on. Who knew?

But the same RAM user manual tells you how to adjust your WDH, gives a spec for front axle load restoration (FALR), and shows a picture of what not to do in terms of applying too much FALR and lightening the rear axle of the tow vehicle below the static (unhitched) condition.

[Profxd]

From the Equalizer brand hitch manual, do you notice a pattern here?

“Trailer loading: This is one of the most significant factors that influences trailer sway.”

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Bobbo

I'm going to have to cogitate on that for a while. We are looking at two different scenarios.

I am looking at a 1 foot long lever with 5 pounds dangling on the unsupported other end vs a 2 foot lever with 5 pounds dangling on that end. This scenario doubles the downward force at the attachment end.

You are looking at a long lever with 5 pounds dangling at a set distance, say 3 feet, from one, pivot, end, and a 1 foot extension past the weight that you are lifting vs the same 5 pounds the same 3 feet from the pivot end with a 2 foot extension past the weight.

My scenario multiplies the weight by the lever length. Your scenario multiples the weight by the ratio of the set distance divided by the adjustable distance. As the adjustable distance increases, the ratio gets smaller, reducing the apparent weight.

If we want to figure out tongue weight, best to consider it without the TV hitched up. It can be done with a tongue weight scale. If one is doing that, one can measure the weight under the dolly wheel (where it is higher), under the ball (the usual base case), or under the attachment point for the WD hitch (further forward, thus a longer lever arm on the trailer CoG, and thus a lower measured tongue weight). That is the key point, that tongue weight isn't a constant and that it is incorrect to assume that it is.

Your weight on a lever scenario doesn't have a different weight based on where the weight is applied, it has a constant weight and a resultant torque. The resultant torque can result in a higher reading on the rear axle scales, but counteracted by a reduced weight on the other TV axle. The forces have to all add up.

The use of the WD hitch has four separate impacts that we have touched on:
1) A reduction in tongue weight due to the longer drawbar and distance from the trailer CoG.
2) An increase in tongue weight due to the weight of the WD hitch itself
3) A change in measured rear axle load on the tow vehicle, due to (1) and (2), which tend to counteract each other, and when considered prior to the application of the WD bars.
4) A decrease in measured rear axle load on the tow vehicle, as the WD bars have tension applied.

Originally Posted by Bobbo

You may possibly be correct. However, you realize that I can never actually acknowledge that.

Love it. I would just point out that the confusion was due to referring to tongue weight as a constant, and considering rear axle load when the issue was trailer tongue weight. Your points about increased load on the tow vehicle rear axle are valid. How about we call it a win-win?

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Profxd

From the Equalizer brand hitch manual, do you notice a pattern here?

“Trailer loading: This is one of the most significant factors that influences trailer sway.”

A pattern, but not one that is any surprise. I don't recall anyone here putting forth the theory that trailer loading isn't important.

What is being objected to is the position that it is the only thing.

[Profxd]

Here is the NATM’s recommendations for sway. Use added sway control for additional security.

“Trailer sway can become dangerous. Factors that contribute to trailer sway are:

Weight of the tow vehicle relative to the trailer.

Hitch load, the tongue weight being too light.

Towing speed is too fast.

Tire inflation.

Design of the trailers, specifically placement of axles.

To mitigate sway:

Ensure you have the proper hitching mechanisms.

Properly load the trailer.

Follow the instructions in the tow vehicle and trailer owner’s manuals.

Use the driving tips found here.

You may also add a sway control device for additional security related to factors such as sudden maneuvers, wind gusts, and the like. A number of sway control devices are available on the market. You will want to ensure with your trailer dealer that the device is appropriate for your application.”

[Silvr_Bullet]

Listen to podcast on Hensley Hitch. Link attached.

https://podcasts.google.com/?feed=aH...Y2I4NzFhNGY4Ng

[out of sight]

Originally Posted by Profxd

Here is the NATM’s recommendations for sway. Use added sway control for additional security.

“Trailer sway can become dangerous. Factors that contribute to trailer sway are:

Weight of the tow vehicle relative to the trailer.

Hitch load, the tongue weight being too light.

Towing speed is too fast.

Tire inflation.

Design of the trailers, specifically placement of axles.

To mitigate sway:

Ensure you have the proper hitching mechanisms.

Properly load the trailer.

Follow the instructions in the tow vehicle and trailer owner’s manuals.

Use the driving tips found here.

You may also add a sway control device for additional security related to factors such as sudden maneuvers, wind gusts, and the like. A number of sway control devices are available on the market. You will want to ensure with your trailer dealer that the device is appropriate for your application.”

The most important point is not even mentioned, i.e., the reaction of the driver to trailer sway. Trailer sway itself is not a problem (as long as you don't get close to critical speed). The problem comes in when the driver overreacts to trailer sway and tries to correct it. This can amplify the sway oscillations and throw your tow vehicle into a jackknife accident.

A professional driver does not use a sway control hitch because he knows that the sway will dampen by itself. He keeps the wheel straight and does not try to correct sway. A novice, on the other hand, might benefit from a friction sway bar if it keeps him from panicking.

[Hittenstiehl]

Airforums has an option to ignore a poster (member) of information.

All future posts from that poster will just show as a message that says ignored post.

You can choose to open the ignored post or just skip over it.

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by Profxd

Here is the NATM’s recommendations for sway. Use added sway control for additional security.

“Trailer sway can become dangerous. Factors that contribute to trailer sway are:

Weight of the tow vehicle relative to the trailer.

Hitch load, the tongue weight being too light.

Towing speed is too fast.

Tire inflation.

Design of the trailers, specifically placement of axles.

To mitigate sway:

Ensure you have the proper hitching mechanisms.

Properly load the trailer.

Follow the instructions in the tow vehicle and trailer owner’s manuals.

Use the driving tips found here.

You may also add a sway control device for additional security related to factors such as sudden maneuvers, wind gusts, and the like. A number of sway control devices are available on the market. You will want to ensure with your trailer dealer that the device is appropriate for your application.”

Glad to see you finally providing a list of more than just a single variable. No one argues loading the trailer properly is a bad idea. It’s just not the only thing....

Note especially - tongue weight being too light is one of several key factors that increase the likelihood of sway and the FIRST suggestion for mitigation is proper hitching mechanisms - one assumes not simply “freeballing” - and yes, a sway control device is recommended for the myriad things out of your control once you leave the static world of loading your trailer to sit on your driveway and the dynamic world of multi-factor influences on the potential for sway.

Now that you’ve quoted a source that affirms what others have been saying to you and OOS forever - I’m wondering if you’d do the forums a favor and stop portraying your single-slice vision of safety here. Those with less experience might assume your incomplete advice is all they need to follow to be safe - which would be a grave mistake.

[Rocinante]

Just a public service announcement:

Unless folks particularly enjoy doing so, there's no need to keep arguing with an individual who feels its their duty to jump into every single towing thread on the forum and tell folks not to use sway control. If you'd prefer to avoid that aspect of this and other similar threads, simply review the "ignore user" feature. When applied properly, it prevents you ever seeing their posts, anywhere, ever again, and allows you to read smoothly through the thread, undisturbed by that commentary. Have fun!

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by Profxd

From the Equalizer brand hitch manual, do you notice a pattern here?

“Trailer loading: This is one of the most significant factors that influences trailer sway.”

Seriously Profxd, there is not a single post claiming or advocating that a sway control hitch or device should or can be used to override and make up for improper trailer loading and resultant incorrect tongue weight so in your last several posts you are singing to the choir. Likewise it is wise to suspect incorrect trailer loading if sway occurs at normal and generally safe speeds, thus that is the sensible advice from manufacturers.

Of the parameters that can be adjusted, nobody is claiming there is a more important factor than trailer center of gravity location impacted primarily by loading strategies. Nobody is suggesting yaw inertia is not second, also impacted by loading strategies.

However you and Out Of Sight imply and sometimes directly state that yaw damping is an ineffective and unsafe strategy and this is categorically false! Anti-sway devices employ various methods and degrees of yaw damping and it is a safe and effective strategy to reduce sway tendency.

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by out of sight

The most important point is not even mentioned, i.e., the reaction of the driver to trailer sway. Trailer sway itself is not a problem (as long as you don't get close to critical speed).

No out of sight, a transient yaw displacement to one side or the other is not sway. Trailer sway is repeated side to side oscillations and only occurs near and over the critical speed as dictated by the immediate conditions.

Let me repeat, if you experience sway while towing, you are near or over the critical speed.

Originally Posted by out of sight

A professional driver does not use a sway control hitch because he knows that the sway will dampen by itself. He keeps the wheel straight and does not try to correct sway. A novice, on the other hand, might benefit from a friction sway bar if it keeps him from panicking.

See this is the problem when ill informed people misuse terms (in this case "sway") I'm not sure what "professionals" you are talking about because a professional knows that sway will not dampen by itself, it will continue and may amplify unless one or more corrective measures occur and fast. Some occur naturally like for example the variable wind forces and direction changes. Others are feedback responses from a trained driver who will immediately apply the trailer brakes manually while maintaining throttle (don't increase speed though) to put the trailer and tow vehicle is tension thus dramatically increase yaw damping, and then as soon as sway has subsided, slow down to avoid the critical speed.

Finally I have yet to hear of any skilled driver claim they want less yaw damping. Honestly, I don't know what professional driver you claim to represent.

[Profxd]

So everyone agrees that proper trailer loading is the first defense against sway right? Correct tongue weight % along with good weight distribution makes for a well behaved trailer. Match that trailer to a TV that can handle the TW, follow the TV manufacturers recommend amount of weight distribution, and have a safe trip. Why was that so hard for you guys to comprehend?

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by Profxd

So everyone agrees that proper trailer loading is the first defense against sway right? Correct tongue weight % along with good weight distribution makes for a well behaved trailer. Match that trailer to a TV that can handle the TW, follow the TV manufacturers recommend amount of weight distribution, and have a safe trip. Why was that so hard for you guys to comprehend?

Please...

What made it hard to comprehend?

I think most comprehend the facts pretty well. You and your partner OOS have wasted hundreds of comments preaching things like the ONLY thing you need is to load correctly and freeball, 10% tongue is all you need, have a truck 2X the weight of your trailer, apply UHaul utility trailer advice to your completely different Airstream travel trailer - etc etc. you’ve completely obfuscated the obvious and now pretend you weren’t saying what you were saying.

That’s gaslighting.

That’s trolling.

That’s easy to understand.

Also easy to understand are some basics on safe towing. You and OOS offer something different. That’s easy to understand too.