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Old 09-23-2020, 05:50 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Profxd View Post
Robert, the full weight of the trailer tongue and the weight of the WDH count as payload on the TV. Is that too complicated for you? There’s nothing convoluted about it and those that know the physics understand it.
I'm the ignorant dolt and you are the exspurt, you rely on what you please and I'll do the same.
When did you weigh my rig? I have known from the beginning my weights & limits and never exceeded the factory specs. I'm not concerned about 'payload' because I'm well under the 'engineers' pre-determined limits.
We are both traveling the same road, I'm just further along and have a bit more experience with MY rig.

Don't get me wrong I appreciate Engineers, I made a good living keeping what they created on the road.

My progression… Knuckle Buster, Grease Monkey, Apprentice, Mechanic, Auto Technician, Computer Assisted Parts Changer to an Associate with dirty hands and a desk.

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Old 09-23-2020, 10:16 AM   #22
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The published tongue weight is in my experience always low. The only way to know what you are dealing with is to go to a CAT scale. There are lots of threads showing how to correctly use those scales. It's not just a once over and done.

Then we can start the conversation over 1/2 ton versus a real tow vehicle. Keep in mind that you are not pulling a bass boat, you are pulling a sailboat.
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:39 AM   #23
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Its good to make draft calculations.

Then go to a truck scal and do an actual three point weigh.

Best to do twice, one with wd and sway dialed in

Then with with AS and TV separately.
Then you will know the actual and know if your dial is correct

We do this annually as the as weight changes each year as what we carry changes every year
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:52 AM   #24
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Towing with a SUV

We just purchased a 2021 Chevy Tahoe 4WD with the Max Tow Package. I too wanted to find out what size Airstream that we could pull with it based upon the weight restrictions of our vehicle, tires, and hitch receiver. I was told to contact Philip at Can-Am towing as he is supposed to be the expert regarding towing Airstreams and would provide me with the info I needed.

I was happy to find out that I could safely tow any model of Airstream with my vehicle with the caveat that I use a WD hitch (he recommended the Eaz-Lift Elite model) and that if the tongue weight was going to exceed 600# that the factory hitch receiver be reinforced. Even though our our hitch receiver is rated for 850# we probably will have his shop reinforce it if we choose a trailer with a higher tongue weight.

It is nice to know that I now have the option to find the Airstream that works best for my family and not have to worry about any safety issues in towing it with my vehicle. I have attached photos of the door placards for the tires and towing restrictions, along with a photo of my hitch receiver placard. Hopefully, this information will help you in your decision about utilizing a SUV for your TV.
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Old 09-23-2020, 11:04 AM   #25
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Quote:
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I'm currently excitedly waiting for a International 27FB to be delivered, and see that the spec quotes "Hitch Weight (w/ LP & Batteries)" as 791lbs. Does anyone know how this number is calculated? Is it with nothing in the trailer (based on the unloaded weight of 5868lbs), or assuming a relatively pessimistic distribution with the full GVWR of 7600lbs? I think it's the former


I'm planning to install a Hensley Arrow hitch (weighing ~190lbs). Does this mean that my car needs to have 791+190=981lb tongue weight capability? I need to purchase a towing vehicle and know trucks are the best options, but would prefer an SUV. However, looking at these numbers, I suspect this makes that impossible...

Thanks!
Nick
Nick we have a 2020 Globetter 25 FB T and have a Hensley Arrow hitch. We tow with a Nissan Armada 2WD and it tows great. It is rated to tow 9000 lbs. the the tongue weight rating is lower than our tongue weight but the Hensley is both a stabilizer hitch and weight distribution hitch and when adjusted properly provides perfect tongue weight.

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Old 09-23-2020, 11:22 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by 2MileHi View Post
The published tongue weight is in my experience always low. The only way to know what you are dealing with is to go to a CAT scale. There are lots of threads showing how to correctly use those scales. It's not just a once over and done.

Then we can start the conversation over 1/2 ton versus a real tow vehicle. Keep in mind that you are not pulling a bass boat, you are pulling a sailboat.
YOU may be pulling a sailboat. I don't have any sort of boat at all. Keep in mind that this is an Airstream forum, not a boat forum.
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Old 09-23-2020, 11:41 AM   #27
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Old 09-23-2020, 09:31 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Profxd View Post
Robert, the full weight of the trailer tongue and the weight of the WDH count as payload on the TV. Is that too complicated for you? There’s nothing convoluted about it and those that know the physics understand it.
Agreed. Surely one hardly needs more then a 7 year old kid's thinking to work out that if you place weight on a tow vehicle you've added weight on that tow vehicle!

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Old 09-24-2020, 05:28 AM   #29
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Quote:
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Agreed. Surely one hardly needs more then a 7 year old kid's thinking to work out that if you place weight on a tow vehicle you've added weight on that tow vehicle!

Collyn
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Read my post please, I always refer, and never exceed the vehicles maximum specs or said that hitching your trailer didn't add weight to the TV.
It's the 'payload' numbers that many folks seem to have problems determining.
Why is it so hard for you 'experts' to accept that if you are under tire, axle and driveline limits payload will follow?

BTW...I aced 3rd grade.👍

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Old 09-24-2020, 06:42 AM   #30
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One thing about a forum like this - people tend to answer from their own experience and in the case of tow vehicles that tends to be limited to the vehicle they happen to tow with. One fellow has an SUV, another a 1/2 ton pickup and another a 3500 dually and each thinks his choice is great.

We have a number of trucks at my work that haul 24-30 foot car trailers that weigh 9-15,000 pounds. We also haul a 50 foot trailer that runs closer to 30,000 pounds. As commercial users go we don't haul a huge amount but we do haul trailers more miles than the vast majority of campers.

Over 30 years we have used all manner of tow vehicles. Personal SUV. 1/2 ton pickup. Heavy duty pickup. Commercial chassis. We've also hauled trailers of all different weights but our most common is about 9,000 lbs.

Having tried all different type of tow vehicles I agree you can move these trailers with many SUVs or light pickups. But having tried that, we have learned that 2500 series pickups are vastly better for towing these loads. They have bigger brakes that don't overheat. They don't get squashed by the weight. They feel more stable on the road. Having tried all sorts of combinations, I would not go back to a lighter truck.

When we got an Airstream my wife wanted to move it with our Range Rover, and it does hav a rating to tow the camper. We have a Propride hitch, and we live about 250 miles from the dealer in New Jersey. The ride home was OK, but the Rover was straining under a load it wasn't made for. We took it on a couple trips and I suggested we try towing with one of the 2500 crew cab trucks from work. What a difference! My wife who wants nothing to do with big pickups instantly converted. The Range Rover has not moved it since.

The point of that story . . . If we had not had the truck available, we would never have known it would tow so much better. We'd have said, yeah, the Range Rover tows fine. Because it does. It's just the truck tows better.

Another way to look at this question is to ask what commercial haulers use, for trailers in this weight range. Ever see one towing with a Suburban, Range Rover, or Mercedes GL?

There are many on the forum who advocate for dually trucks, 3500 with double back wheels. We use those trucks (as a minimum) to pull trailers over 15,000 with heavy gooseneck connectors. I don't see a benefit to using those trucks for a 7-10,000 pound bumper pull trailer, versus a single wheel 2500.

I would also offer a comment on gas vs. diesel. We use Chevy trucks but each maker sells similar packages. The diesel 2500 has twice the torque at half the rpm as compared to the gas engine. That means the diesel truck can climb hills without shifting down, while the gas motor will shift back a couple gears and be turning 4000 rpm on a steep grade. We have towed hundreds of thousands of miles, letting the gas motors wind up on hills, with no problems. The motors in new trucks are made to do that.

Sure diesel feels better on the road, but maintenance costs are higher. When you look at the $10k premium to buy the diesel, plus the higher annual maintenance cost - diesel does not pay for most users who run their rigs under 30,000 miles a year. If you like the feel of the slow moving torquey diesel and can afford it - go for it, but bear in mind the gas truck will do the same job in the 10,000 pound trailer range.

Just my 2 cents here
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Old 09-24-2020, 07:17 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by johnrobison View Post
One thing about a forum like this - people tend to answer from their own experience and in the case of tow vehicles that tends to be limited to the vehicle they happen to tow with. One fellow has an SUV, another a 1/2 ton pickup and another a 3500 dually and each thinks his choice is great.

We have a number of trucks at my work that haul 24-30 foot car trailers that weigh 9-15,000 pounds. We also haul a 50 foot trailer that runs closer to 30,000 pounds. As commercial users go we don't haul a huge amount but we do haul trailers more miles than the vast majority of campers...............

..............Having tried all different type of tow vehicles I agree you can move these trailers with many SUVs or light pickups. But having tried that, we have learned that 2500 series pickups are vastly better for towing these loads. They have bigger brakes that don't overheat. They don't get squashed by the weight. They feel more stable on the road. Having tried all sorts of combinations, I would not go back to a lighter truck.

The point of that story . . . If we had not had the truck available, we would never have known it would tow so much better. We'd have said, yeah, the Range Rover tows fine. Because it does. It's just the truck tows better............


Excellent summary! Nice to hear the breadth of experience with trailers from bumper pull to gooseneck with the weights mentioned in various environmental conditions.

Having started with 1/2 ton Ram Ecodiesel (loved the truck) with our 27 ft Globetrotter FBT, and upgrading to the Ram 2500 6.7L Cummins, it truly is a night and day thing for us traveling the highways through the mountains in Utah and Colorado. Gas engine would be just as good too, but the larger frame and suspension is what makes the ride more comfortable and safer.
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Old 09-24-2020, 08:51 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrobison View Post
~~
There are many on the forum who advocate for dually trucks, 3500 with double back wheels. We use those trucks (as a minimum) to pull trailers over 15,000 with heavy gooseneck connectors. I don't see a benefit to using those trucks for a 7-10,000 pound bumper pull trailer, versus a single wheel 2500.
~~
I think that most people who advocate for 1-tons (vs 3/4) to tow Airstreams are specifically pushing the SRW (single-rear-wheel) configuration, mostly because they want the heavy diesel engine AND lots of payload. A gasser 3/4 ton has ample payload but that big diesel lump eats quite a bit of it, so for diesel there's a good case for SRW 1-tons
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Old 09-24-2020, 08:57 AM   #33
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Quote:
The point of that story . . . If we had not had the truck available, we would never have known it would tow so much better. We'd have said, yeah, the Range Rover tows fine. Because it does. It's just the truck tows better.
This forum has many experienced operators, BayouBiker, Robert Cross, and quite a few names that are becoming common to me. John has the simplest yet most logical reply I have read so far.

I towed my 2019 FCC 19CBB with a brand new 2020 GLE 450. I had the power. I had the torque. The ride was superior. Blue Ox Sway Pro. BUT I was fully aware their was a trailer behind me. The routine stopping, a little push, or a little tug. The positioning on the campsite pad, needed a bit more on the pedal to move it a few degrees uphill in reverse. Watching my tongue weight, respecting the hitch limits, the squatting made me cringe until I attached the WDH. Always within limits on Axles, and payload, most of my cargo in the trailer, well distributed when I stop at the CAT scales.

Then we decided to get a second car, a 2015 RAM1500 ecodiesel. Almost 100HP less than the MB, but better torque. Our first hook up we kept the camping experience close to home for a trial run.

Like John and everyone stated, it was night and day. Their was a trailer attached, but now the TV was in command. Better braking, better maneuverability, control, and yes the RAM is comfortable. After 3000 miles of towing, as a newbie, I am convinced and converted. Yes, the MB can do it, but I'll never tow further than an hour from home. I will be looking at a RAM 2500 within the next year, just to increase the payload a bit. Still researching between gas and diesel. Presently the bed cover and side rails, bigger tires, took almost 250 pounds away from me.
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Old 09-24-2020, 10:59 AM   #34
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I have a 27 ft front bedroom classic, Hensley hitch, heavy solar panel wiring and inverter under bed for solar panels, being towed with a Chevy 2500 HD diesel. Hitch weight weights in at 1275 pounds. Down the road with little hitch adjustment it travels line nothing is back there. 14 mpg
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Old 09-24-2020, 06:18 PM   #35
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Agreed. Surely one hardly needs more then a 7 year old kid's thinking to work out that if you place weight on a tow vehicle you've added weight on that tow vehicle!

Collyn
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Then the same 7 year old would also reason that when you remove weight you've subtracted it....
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Old 09-24-2020, 06:49 PM   #36
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Then the same 7 year old would also reason that when you remove weight you've subtracted it....
The same 7 year old likely understands that you can slide forward or back on the teeter totter at the playground to change the balance. When you extend the trailer tongue with a WD hitch you effectively do the same thing.
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Old 09-24-2020, 07:11 PM   #37
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I would think the 7 year old might understand that, but that seven year old probably would miss how the analogy fails. In the teeter totter example, mass is physically displaced lengthwise, with WD, it is not.

Edit: Perhaps of more consequence, it would be interesting to discuss the merits of the trade off of exceeding published payload by adding mass to the tow vehicle biased forward to add inertial moment to the tow vehicle and better balance it with the trailers inertial moments, while also reducing ideal WD tension. I shouldn't have to state the obvious that you wouldn't want to exceed axle and combined weight limits in the process.
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Old 09-25-2020, 08:42 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gboehmer2014 View Post
I have a 27 ft front bedroom classic, Hensley hitch, heavy solar panel wiring and inverter under bed for solar panels, being towed with a Chevy 2500 HD diesel. Hitch weight weights in at 1275 pounds. Down the road with little hitch adjustment it travels line nothing is back there. 14 mpg
Towing like 'nothing is back there' is not ideal and should NOT be the goal.
If you can't perceive the trailer, you won't perceive a problem.

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Old 09-25-2020, 09:23 AM   #39
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I would think the 7 year old might understand that, but that seven year old probably would miss how the analogy fails. In the teeter totter example, mass is physically displaced lengthwise, with WD, it is not.
I think you missed the analogy. Leave WD effects of bar tension out of it. A WD hitch effectively extends the trailer tongue length by virtue of its physical length. Some WD hitches are reported to add 18”. Tongue weight is just a result of the trailer centre of mass being ahead of the trailer axles. Shift the support point from the trailer coupler 18” forward, and see how the tongue weight is reduced. Just like a teeter totter. Now add back the weight of the WD equipment. This is why you don’t add the weight of the WD equipment as a straight addition: the two effects tend to offset each other, at least partially.
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Old 09-25-2020, 09:33 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS View Post
Towing like 'nothing is back there' is not ideal and should NOT be the goal.

If you can't perceive the trailer, you won't perceive a problem.



Bob



I know when I make that same statement regarding towing my 27 what I am referring to is the trailer does not impact acceleration, braking, stability ( I.e. when passing or being passed). Do I know I have a trailer absolutely, am I thinking about it’s impact on the driving every second nope. This make for a much more comfortable drive.
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