Anti sway on a 16' Bambi

[Gnostic]

We have a 16' Bambi CCD pulled by an RX 400 Lexus h (the hybrid.)
Without any sway control the thing tracks beautifully. We went through some wind, semi's passed us and I don't see any problem. Am I living in a dream world? Does it have to have some kind of sway control?

Gnostic

[baldeagle]

Seems to me the proof is in the "tasting".....

Sounds like you have a fine combination

[85MH325]

Sway control ought to be used as an added safety factor, not to mask problems that should otherwise be fixed first. Sway is caused by a variety of factors including suspension design, tire inflation on both trailer and tow vehicle, tire sidewall stiffness (again on both), and trailer loading. It sounds like you've got them covered with your rig.

I have towed a number of small (15-17') fiberglass campers and have variously used or not used sway control, depending on what I was towing it with. As a rule of thumb, the heavier the trailer is in relation to the tow vehicle, the more important sway control is.

I now have a 17.5 foot Bigfoot that I tow with my Tundra, and I installed a sway control 'just because' it weighs close to 4,000 lbs, and my Tundra is only 5,000 lbs itself. I use a Reese Dual Cam with the 34' Airstream and my Excursion. I'll probably use sway control with the Excursion and the Bigfoot as well, just because it's already installed.

Roger

[Silvertwinkie]

I mirror Roger's comments. For about $80 to $100, a friction sway would be a good investment. I don't think you need to get a $3000 Hensley or even a $175 dual cam system.

I am however a bit concerned that you chose to tow a 3500lb RV (not including fuel, passengers and cargo) with a Hybrid RX. It is rated at 3500lbs max (with the tow package hopefully) which I am going to bet you have exceeded once you deduct the weight of passengers in the RX, fuel and cargo from that 3500 max rating. My feeling is that these types of vehicles are really suited to tow jet skis, very small boats, pop-ups or full size RVs that weight about 2500lbs or less. If this is your first RV, you'll soon see what the concern is about when you get some exp towing in less than ideal circumstances.

To be honest, I'm less concerned with the sway control than what you have chosen to tow with. Though I applaud the move for environmental and cost savings reasons, you could find yourself in a pickle in a situation that had hills, mountains or an emergancy situation. Here is the blurb directly off the Lexus site on the tow rating:

[4]
Before towing, confirm your vehicle and trailer are compatible, hooked up properly and you have any necessary additional equipment. Do not exceed any weight ratings and follow all instructions and cautions from your trailer-hitch manufacturer and vehicle Owner's Manual. The maximum amount you can tow depends on the total weight of any cargo, occupants and available equipment.

[BillTex]

You will know when you need sway control the first time it happens...

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by Gnostic

Without any sway control the thing tracks beautifully. We went through some wind, semi's passed us and I don't see any problem. Am I living in a dream world? Does it have to have some kind of sway control?Gnostic

http://www.airforums.com/forum...i+sway+control

a collection of wisdom on this issue.....

cheers
2air'

[BillTex]

I agree with one common theme in that thread; single axle trailers are more squirrely than dual axle...that has been my experience!

[peegreen]

Originally Posted by 85MH325

I use a Reese Dual Cam with the 34' Airstream and my Excursion. I'll probably use sway control with the Excursion and the Bigfoot as well, just because it's already installed.

Roger

I have a similar setup - 32', Excursion, Reese DC w/ 1000# WD bars. I was wondering what size bars you had and offer any experience/opinion. I think I am overhitched and need lighter bars such as 500 or 750# bars. My bars barely flex now when hitched up, and I think the towing experience could be better in terms of sway and stability.

[Silvertwinkie]

When I was towing the Bambi with the sedan, I used 1200lb bars and they worked well with the soft suspension of the sedan. Same when I towed with the 25' Safari.

When I got the 3/4 Burb and towed the 25' Safari, the 1200lb bars had no flex at all. I barely needed the bar to pull them on or off and the dual cam didn't seem to work all that well. Then I read about being overhitched here on the forum. So I went down to the 800lb bars and it was a clear improvement over the 1200lb bars, but I still noticed a bit of 18 wheeler blow by when being passed, so I again went on eBay and found a set of 600lb bars. I've towed the Safari with the Burb and the 600lb bars for maybe 30 miles and it seems to handle great, but the real test will be when we go to the midwest rally in a few weeks and get some highway time with the new setup.

I bought a tongue scale and found that my hitch weight wet (and fully loaded with propane) was 650, not the 750 it had on the spec sheet. I don't think it's gonna be too much of a problem with the 600lb bars. Although unlike the other 2 sets of bars I've used, I'm currently at the 5th chain link and both truck and Safari are level.

Depending on your hitch weight, I wouldn't go too far south from the actual weight. But if you want to trial and error it, I got my bars, both sets off eBay for about $60 shipped (per set), which was far less than the online retailers wanted, or the local shops.

[85MH325]

Hi Peegreen! My trailer has a 900 lb tongue weight, and I use 1000 lb bars and they flex appropriately. If your 32' has a significantly lower tongue weight, then perhaps 750s would be more appropriate.

The Excursion has some design flaws that contribute to that vague feeling I'm sure you're having. I switched to "E" range tires (my Ex came with "D"s that got recalled) and I replaced the junk stock shocks with some really good Edelbrock gas shocks. The rear axle four leaf spring stack is only half that of the Superduty trucks, and the four spring stack isn't sufficient to keep the axle centered under the Excursion causing rear-axle steering. THAT is a real problem without towing; it's a disaster with a trailer attached. That requires Land Yot radius rods and a Helwig 36mm sway bar to overcome the shortcomings of the design. My Ex now tows the 34' like it's on rails. It used to be white knuckles all the way.

Good luck with yours!

Roger

[CanoeStream]

Most all add-ons for anti-sway begin with a mechanism for weight distribution (WD). WD gear prevents all the hitch weight from being borne by the back axle of your tow vehicle (TV). Look for your rear axle rating and at least do some quick guesstimating.

Through its action on the hitch, WD gear torques the frame of the TV so that the front wheels bear some of the hitch weight. This can be vital -- and so necessary when that 'other driver' does something absolutely stupid. Nobody wants to get in this situation but balancing the load like this can help you maintain control further into any incident (disclaimers galore, blah-blah...).

[3Ms75Argosy]

Just kidding of course! I'm thinking that your brakes are you're limiting factor... I think your four way disk brakes are probably better than the big brakes on the 1/2 ton p/u's around.... Chevy's are notoriously bad (speaking of first hand experience here). I think the hybrid has a heat / energy recovery system on each wheel - I think you have plenty of reserve. Does Toyota sell a tranny cooler?

Have fun with your rig! I'd also slap on some sway control as a belts and suspenders safety setup - it would be $100 well spent.

What kind of mileage are you getting towing? Is the electic motor being used all the time on the freeway, or do you find that it's only needed from start and up hills?
Welcome!
Any pics?
Marc

[peegreen]

Originally Posted by 85MH325

Hi Peegreen! My trailer has a 900 lb tongue weight, and I use 1000 lb bars and they flex appropriately. If your 32' has a significantly lower tongue weight, then perhaps 750s would be more appropriate.

The Excursion has some design flaws that contribute to that vague feeling I'm sure you're having. I switched to "E" range tires (my Ex came with "D"s that got recalled) and I replaced the junk stock shocks with some really good Edelbrock gas shocks. The rear axle four leaf spring stack is only half that of the Superduty trucks, and the four spring stack isn't sufficient to keep the axle centered under the Excursion causing rear-axle steering. THAT is a real problem without towing; it's a disaster with a trailer attached. That requires Land Yot radius rods and a Helwig 36mm sway bar to overcome the shortcomings of the design. My Ex now tows the 34' like it's on rails. It used to be white knuckles all the way.

Good luck with yours!

Roger

Thanks for the info. Vague is the exact description. I also swapped out to load range E. I'm not sure what Land Yot radius bars are and I'm assuming you only replaced the rear sway bar? I've been looking at aftermarket sway bars thinking that might be the best improvement - is that a DIY?

[85MH325]

Originally Posted by peegreen

Thanks for the info. Vague is the exact description. I also swapped out to load range E. I'm not sure what Land Yot radius bars are and I'm assuming you only replaced the rear sway bar? I've been looking at aftermarket sway bars thinking that might be the best improvement - is that a DIY?

My Ex didn't have a rear sway bar at all! So, I installed the beefy Hellwig. Radius rods are a pivoting fixed link that runs from the frame to the axle, and only allows the axle to move in the arc it is supposed to. Between the sway bar and radius rods, it tames the rear axle wander that Excursions are prone to and that Ford absolutely denies happens. You will lose a little of the cushy ride tho... I'm sure if you've got a decent shop and 1" drive sockets you can probably DIY on the body sway bar, but I have an excellent mechanic who does my work, and does it inexpensively enough that it doesn't pay for me to crawl under the truck any more.

Here's a couple of links to discussions of Land Yot's radius rods you'll find interesting...

http://www.supermotors.org/clubs/for...&page=1&rpp=10

http://www.supermotors.org/clubs/for...ll_2/index.php

http://www.supermotors.org/clubs/for...id=31007#31007

I can tell you that all of the claims Land Yot customers make about his radius rods are absolutely genuine. What they do for the handling of an Excursion is amazing.

Roger

[Silvertwinkie]

When I upgraded my bars on the SS, it was recommended and it's been my exp that both the front and rear bars be changed to match or an understeer/oversteer condition could happen. Rog, if you added a rear bar where there was no bar, and kept the front the same, I'd be interested in how the vehicle manuvers without the trailer behind it. I took the rear bar off when doing LCA (lower control arm) upgrades in the back, and only had the front on for one trip and all I could saw was WOW. The car misbehaved at nearly every harder turn I took. What have you found with the Ex, though I doubt you had any harder turns or manuvers in the Ex as I laid into it with the SS.

[85MH325]

There is only one size for the front on the Ex, and both Hellwig and Ford provide the same 24mm bars. I think, though, that all of the Excursions had them on the front from the factory. Beginning (I think) in '02 and continuing maybe through early '04 all of the Excursions (or at least most of them) came equipped with a 30mm bar on the rear as well. Ford discontinued the 30 mm bar sometime in '04 (again I think) and noted in the parts books as an "unneccessary" part. HA!

I could have gotten the 30 mm bar for the Superduty trucks from Ford, but there's no way to cross reference whether the brackets are identical or not. My Ford parts guy recommended that I just get the Hellwig bar since it is advertised as fitting the Excursion.

The Excursions were just plain squirrelly without the bars. With them, they handle great. With the bars AND radius rods, they're solid as a rock!

Roger

[2airishuman]

hi all

the lexus in question may have the self leveling air suspension AND a full unibody (these were originally based on camry platform)....i looked at the reciever units available for this suv and they are class 2/3 with 300lb max tongue; recommended not to be used with w/d systems.....

the owner will need to check with a lexus dealer......
yes if they only tow for short trips
on slow roads and so on,
they might be fine for 1-2 trips a year.....
not my choice but might be theirs....

except for the tab trailer some dealers carry,
airstream doesn't have a new product for this market segment.....
till the base camp is in full production.

the basecamp with a finished interior,
could be light enough and styled such
that folks wanting to tow with car based suvs and so on,
would find them an attractive interpretation of 'airstream' silver...
for their camping needs and the looks....

really none of the new bambis are light enough for this buying segment...
the euro models airstream is building now
might help bring a smaller ligher unit to the usa
but it still would be with the euro features we've read about....

the ford superduties don't come with a rear antisway bar either....
it is available as a factory add-on and in the 'camper package'
they do not change the front bar when the rear is added...
i had them add one to my truck...

it isn't an absolute requirement to match
ft/rr swaybars on big clumsy vehicles like trucks or body/frame cars....
and going from no rear bar to any rear bar will improve body sway and steer-in somewhat....

oversteer and understeer are affected by the relationship between the 2 bars.......
on sporty cars, fwd cars and some others....
so matching bar characteristics on these vehicles is important.

with my audis and my track cars
changing the stiffness of either is perceptible while driving....
at the limits of steering/handling.
much like moving from snows or all seasons to proper cornering tires....

some antisway bars setup allow for simple adjustments on track day, to adapt to the conditions, tires, turns and so on..

cheers
2air'

[Gnostic]

Originally Posted by 3Ms75Argosy

Just kidding of course! I'm thinking that your brakes are you're limiting factor... I think your four way disk brakes are probably better than the big brakes on the 1/2 ton p/u's around.... Chevy's are notoriously bad (speaking of first hand experience here). I think the hybrid has a heat / energy recovery system on each wheel - I think you have plenty of reserve. Does Toyota sell a tranny cooler?

Have fun with your rig! I'd also slap on some sway control as a belts and suspenders safety setup - it would be $100 well spent.

What kind of mileage are you getting towing? Is the electic motor being used all the time on the freeway, or do you find that it's only needed from start and up hills?
Welcome!
Any pics?
Marc

Hi Marc,
The RX400h gets about 14 mpg when towing the Bambi, and 27 to 30 with a combination of city and highway. It's not like the Prius, but it gets descent milage and the electiric motor helps boost the power to 268 hp. It also has what the Lexus people tell me as a "weight distribution hitch" on the car. What that is, I know not. The curb weight of the car is 4,500 and the Max towing weight is 3.500. My wife and I love the way it drives, and we are told it is one of the cleanest burning vehicles on the road.

Mike G

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by Gnostic

The curb weight of the car is 4,500 and the Max towing weight is 3.500. My wife and I love the way it drives, and we are told it is one of the cleanest burning vehicles on the road.

Mike G

Mike, though it may be one of the cleanest burning vehicles on the road, it would/will also be one of the most unsafe combos on the road as well with a 16' Airstream or any other RV that weighs over 2500lbs and has passengers, cargo and fuel to carry.

I'd seriously consider a different car/truck for towing a full size RV. I've seen the hitch on the RX. The tube gets compressed to that of a class 2 hitch to allow for the exhaust tip to be cleared. The dealer is probobly saying the auto level is the weight distribution, but in fact, unless there are bars, there is no way for the weight to be spread between the tow vehicle and the RV. The hitch weight is in essence dead weight on the hitch. I realize it moves the 16', but there is a difference between moving and towing something. If you choose to continue to do it, please be extremely careful as what you are doing I would consider fairly dangerous.

As for the bar conversation, it must just be a truck thing cause my body on frame Chevy sedan needs the bars to be close to the same size and stiffness or it will misbehave.

I'm totally shocked that bars are not standard equipment on vehicles as they add a good level of control (or at least that's been my exp). I'm shocked that Ford would make it an *option*. I don't think the Burb has bars either come to think of it. I'd have to look again, but I'm not sure it even has a bar in the front. I've seen kits and although I haven't had any issues, I'm a firm believer in trying to put every possible advantage under my behind to make the towing situation the best possible after my many bad exp towing a 6300lb 25' with the wrong tow vehicle.

[Gnostic]

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

I mirror Roger's comments. For about $80 to $100, a friction sway would be a good investment. I don't think you need to get a $3000 Hensley or even a $175 dual cam system.

I am however a bit concerned that you chose to tow a 3500lb RV (not including fuel, passengers and cargo) with a Hybrid RX. It is rated at 3500lbs max (with the tow package hopefully) which I am going to bet you have exceeded once you deduct the weight of passengers in the RX, fuel and cargo from that 3500 max rating. My feeling is that these types of vehicles are really suited to tow jet skis, very small boats, pop-ups or full size RVs that weight about 2500lbs or less. If this is your first RV, you'll soon see what the concern is about when you get some exp towing in less than ideal circumstances.

To be honest, I'm less concerned with the sway control than what you have chosen to tow with. Though I applaud the move for environmental and cost savings reasons, you could find yourself in a pickle in a situation that had hills, mountains or an emergancy situation. Here is the blurb directly off the Lexus site on the tow rating:

[4]
Before towing, confirm your vehicle and trailer are compatible, hooked up properly and you have any necessary additional equipment. Do not exceed any weight ratings and follow all instructions and cautions from your trailer-hitch manufacturer and vehicle Owner's Manual. The maximum amount you can tow depends on the total weight of any cargo, occupants and available equipment.

Hi,
I had spoken with with a bunch of people including Lexus and Airstream about matching the Lexus with the 16' Bambi, and they said go ahead. The Lexus is 4,650 curb weight, with a "weight distribution" hitch (?) and the Bambi is supposed to be 3,500. It has a "class 3" hitch rating of 500 lb, (what ever that is.) The 268 hp engine seems to pull up hills fine. We are very careful to load as little stuff in it as possible and keep it distributed front to back, and also stay at 55 to 60 mph. However, we haven't had any tough times, like a panic stop situation or such. Of course, with a small wife (110 lb,) a Great Dane (140 lb.) a Miniature Pincher (5 lb.) and me, (223 lbs.) The Lexus is loaded pretty much. When we looked in to the Taurag, last year it turned out that the tongue weight wouldn't come close to the weight that the vehicle would pull and they had to yank all their ads with big Airstream trailers. I believe experience is the only teacher, so thanks for any info.
Mike G