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Silvertwinkie · 06-01-2006, 06:47 PM

Mike. If you are saying you called Lexus and Airstream corporate, then I'd be shocked that Airstream would say sure. I've spoken with a number of folks at the factory, and most of what they have told me in my dealing with the few folks I had spoken with on the subject at the factory, mirror what's been said here on this thread. If you are talking about a sales person, well, that's pretty easy to figure out why they would say sure. Most here have heard the same song and dance.

The VW you mention has a higher listed tow capacity than the RX, a slight longer wheelbase than the RX, and for a 16', would be no problem at all. Good up to about a 22' RV at about 5600lbs IMHO. Given the numbers you've posted and deducting those numbers from your overall listed tow rating (which is how an actual tow rating is calculated), also taking into consideration fuel (about 15 gallons@ 5lbs a gallon), your actual tow rating would be in the ballpark 2925lbs. If the Airstream is loaded to or near capacity (water, LP, batteries, food, clothes) you will have without question exceeded the tow rating of the RX.

I don't mean this to sound like a jerk or a towing snob, but I get the impression that this may be your first RV, or your first exp towing given that you have questions about weight distribution, etc. The questions are great questions, however, most of the folks on this thread so far have said pretty much the same thing. Some of the folks that have responed here, I've met personally and some have even more towing exp than I do (and I have about 13 years under my belt). I hope you don't run into any issues with the setup you've chosen. But the numbers as presented with known specs do not suggest a good match.

2airishuman · 06-01-2006, 09:43 PM

hi gnostic and others

again welcome to airstream'n and the forums.
i hope you have many happy and safe trips.
there aren't many posting here who tow with the lexus rx models...
knowing we may pounce on them.....
so sharing your experience is very valuable....
perhaps they read but don't post.....
but no one has pounced on you yet......
we all just want you towing safely....

toyota builds fine products that are safe and reliable....

the rx models are/have become their top sellers in the lexus line...

interestingly the rx models are sold under the 'harrier' lable in japan...
i know a bit about rabbits....

it is still based on the camry......
in IS a unibody car based vehicle......
do you know anyone towing an airstream with a camry?

it is more of a crossover vehicle than and suv.....
the terms are vague but cov's tend to be car based, fuel efficient, less rugged and better handling. because they are cars at heart......

the book reports the curb wt for the rx400h as 46-4700lbs.....this doesn't include options or passengers......

i could not find a gvwr for this model......that's a problem.
i could not find a gcwr for this model......that's a problem too.

we gotta know the gross rating for both the tv and the combo....
in other words somewhere someone has to declare what the maximum combined weight of everything is......tv, trailer, people, and so on....

the lexus book does say towing is 3500lbs followed by this disclaimer......

"The maximum amount you can tow depends on the total weight of any cargo, occupants and available equipment."

in simple terms this means for every pound put IN the lexus towing is reduced......
people and dogs is over 450lbs.....
so towing is REDUCED by this amt.......
meaning 3500 drops to 3000lbs.....

in addition many who sell towing related items (tv, trailers, hitches)
suggest w/d isn't needed for trailers less than 4-5000lbs......
many of us here disagree with this.....and use w/d systems.....
still i see NO w/d system even available for the recievers that fit the lexus....none.

the air suspension is often referred to as 'load leveling'
which is really close to 'load distributing' as words go.........
but means something VERY DIFFERENT.....

so to get back to your first post......
yes you need sway control
yes you are living in some sort of dream world

and this is all the more odd
with your chosen screen name!

cheers
2air'

twink......on the anti sway bars.....

i even up graded the bars on the airstream moho years ago....
and the body roll reduction was dramatic.....
not a sports car at 30 feet,
but it no longer leaned on ramps or big curves....

so i'm sure the improvement with the ss was dramatic.....
much like going to lower profile tires and stiffer sidewalls......

this isn't necessarily a safer set up however.....
on bigger or heavier cars the lean and tire squeel is a signal....
the beginnings of 'breakaway' or loss of grip...

when stiffer bars or tires are added the vehicle feels better BUT the breakaway point becomes less progressive.....
so loss of control happens faster and in a shorter range.....
with fewer clues it is coming...
this takes great driver skill to control...

in the wet, snow, cold or at higher speeds
cornering will now give fewer signals of the impending disaster....

this is just my basic understanding....
and wt transfer, slip angles, center or rotation,
tire compounds, sway bar bushing material, and so on add to this issue.

the ss is a great straight line mover.....
but in the turns it's still a boat....
like most cars over 3500lbs.....
on the track

Silvertwinkie · 06-01-2006, 10:31 PM

That makes sense to me. I may still investigate bars for the Burb since I feel I have a good sense of the trucks ability.

I will say this in terms of the SS, GM put some, well, GM bean counter bars on the SS for its drivetrain, I felt it was weak and agree, the car isn't that great on manuvers, until one day I came across a fellow SSer that upgraded his bars.

Front bar upgraded to GMs early 70s front bar from the "F" body that is a 32mm bar (vs 30mm stock).

In the back, the stock 26mm bar is replaced with the Herb Adams, I believe it's a 38mm bar.

I've driven this setup and I will tell you that the car feels like it lost about 1000lbs and rides as if it was a Honda on sharp turns. I liked it so much that I bought both bars off eBay. Unlike the 3/4 trucks most of which don't have LCAs, the LCAs that we on the car, there was NO way the stock stamped LCAs would be able to deal with the forces of a 38mm bar.

I found pics of someone who tried the 38mm bar on stock LCAs and it just tore them up....guy was lucky to still be alive as the bar just tore the grade 8 bolts right out of the LCA like you'd poke a hole in a pop can.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to getting these on the SS and get that feel like a Honda on the higher speed turns...all of which has little to do with the thread that the user needs sway control and will most likely not add a 38mm bar to his RX!

wunderful62 · 06-01-2006, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnostic

We have a 16' Bambi CCD pulled by an RX 400 Lexus h (the hybrid.)
Without any sway control the thing tracks beautifully. We went through some wind, semi's passed us and I don't see any problem. Am I living in a dream world? Does it have to have some kind of sway control?

Gnostic

i too have a smaller a/s trailer.what i can tell you about the load leveler bars ,vs towing without is that they apply the load to the pavement.in other words the trailer tracks the same ,bounces with the tow vehicle as a single unit.for instance,when you hit a bump,or when the trailer goes over one it can hop itself back in line till the tail wagging the dog resolves itself and the kink irons itself out and ,usually in a flash things are back in line.i mean any shorter vehicle will be a bit twitchier than longer wheelbase vehicles at times,at worst if you will but i must say,the smaller a/s trailers are the ultimate in tow trailers.you will not experience the weightless hop of a smaller lighter and possibly even empty as well trailer,that you may rarely at worst experience depending on road conditions and these discerning factors and other variables such as speed,wind etc with a bumpy road and no load levelers.although i dont always use the hitch bars on my 19ft globetrotter around town and on short trips etc ,i do prefer to use them on longer trips.it is a more predictable bounce,with the hitch bars,and a more tightly tied and true tracking between the trailer and tow vehicle with the feel of a single all one unit kind of feel that you will experience,hitches vary,and mine is an older trailer,but the same is true to yours.e mail me if you like.

wunderful62 · 06-01-2006, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnostic

We have a 16' Bambi CCD pulled by an RX 400 Lexus h (the hybrid.)
Without any sway control the thing tracks beautifully. We went through some wind, semi's passed us and I don't see any problem. Am I living in a dream world? Does it have to have some kind of sway control?

Gnostic

i sent you a private message and 2 e mails regarding this,th reply and quotes did not post and contents were lost. if you did not receive you can e mail me at wunderful62@sbcglobal,net and lrt me know what you got,

Gnostic · 06-02-2006, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

Mike. If you are saying you called Lexus and Airstream corporate, then I'd be shocked that Airstream would say sure. I've spoken with a number of folks at the factory, and most of what they have told me in my dealing with the few folks I had spoken with on the subject at the factory, mirror what's been said here on this thread. If you are talking about a sales person, well, that's pretty easy to figure out why they would say sure. Most here have heard the same song and dance.

The VW you mention has a higher listed tow capacity than the RX, a slight longer wheelbase than the RX, and for a 16', would be no problem at all. Good up to about a 22' RV at about 5600lbs IMHO. Given the numbers you've posted and deducting those numbers from your overall listed tow rating (which is how an actual tow rating is calculated), also taking into consideration fuel (about 15 gallons@ 5lbs a gallon), your actual tow rating would be in the ballpark 2925lbs. If the Airstream is loaded to or near capacity (water, LP, batteries, food, clothes) you will have without question exceeded the tow rating of the RX.

I don't mean this to sound like a jerk or a towing snob, but I get the impression that this may be your first RV, or your first exp towing given that you have questions about weight distribution, etc. The questions are great questions, however, most of the folks on this thread so far have said pretty much the same thing. Some of the folks that have responed here, I've met personally and some have even more towing exp than I do (and I have about 13 years under my belt). I hope you don't run into any issues with the setup you've chosen. But the numbers as presented with known specs do not suggest a good match.

Hi,
I had talked with a tech person at Airstream and several tech people at several different Lexus dealers, including one in Michigan, and a tech person from Lexus Corp. (I was given the number by the dealer we ultimately bought our car from.)
The minefield of information is a narrow path between the corporate legal department fearful of lawsuits and the dealer who wants to make a sale, so I appreciate your input.
Fortunately, all of this can be solved by getting another vehicle for towing. I like Lexus' LX 470. Any suggestions?
Our only other experience with living on the road was with a "Vixen." Our partners and my wife and I drove two of them across the country while doing a job. It was wonderful and the people you meet are great.
Thanks again for the information. My wife and I would like to live a little longer if possible, so your wisdom from experience has a nice ring to it.
"Let experience be our only guide, for reason will mislead us."
...The delegate from Deleware to the Constitutional Convention.

Mike G

Silvertwinkie · 06-02-2006, 04:49 PM

I'm totally floored by what you've been told and am speachless as to why, given this day and age of lawsuits someone would make such a suggestion given the basic math doesn't add up.

The Touareg would be similar to the fit and finish you are use to in the RX, yet depending on model, you could tow even up to a 22', though some do tow 25's with them which I'm not comfortable with that large with that vehicle.

If domestic is an option, a Tahoe with a 5.3L and DOD (displacement on demand) or it's GMC counterpart. Of course none of these will get the MPG you're use to with the hybrid RX.

If an interior that doesn't have as many amenities, the Trailblazer is a great low cost tow vehicle depending on model and can cost thousands less, but again, not as decked out as a Touareg or an '07 Tahoe. Those are a few that come to mind off the cuff, if you have others that you might be interested in, bounce a few off the forum. You'll have no problem getting feedback!

2airishuman · 06-02-2006, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnostic

Fortunately, all of this can be solved by getting another vehicle for towing. I like Lexus' LX 470. Any suggestions?
Our only other experience with living on the road was with a "Vixen."

well the lx470 is body on frame,
bigger/heavier and rated to 6500lbs,
so a bambi would be easy to tow....
but you should still have anti sway of some sort...

wow a vixen.....
living in the northwest,
i almost replaced my airstream moho
with a vixen in the 80s......very cool,

but man am i glad i didn't buy that white elephant...

cheers
2air'

Gnostic · 06-03-2006, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

I'm totally floored by what you've been told and am speachless as to why, given this day and age of lawsuits someone would make such a suggestion given the basic math doesn't add up.

The Touareg would be similar to the fit and finish you are use to in the RX, yet depending on model, you could tow even up to a 22', though some do tow 25's with them which I'm not comfortable with that large with that vehicle.

If domestic is an option, a Tahoe with a 5.3L and DOD (displacement on demand) or it's GMC counterpart. Of course none of these will get the MPG you're use to with the hybrid RX.

If an interior that doesn't have as many amenities, the Trailblazer is a great low cost tow vehicle depending on model and can cost thousands less, but again, not as decked out as a Touareg or an '07 Tahoe. Those are a few that come to mind off the cuff, if you have others that you might be interested in, bounce a few off the forum. You'll have no problem getting feedback!

Thanks,
Among others, we are going to look at a used 4-Runner 4WD, V6, with a stated towing capacity of 6,400.(Is that really true? The problem with domestic cars is that they lose their value overnight and our experience with Toyota is that they don't. The used GX470 Lexus is nice, but more money. (But then you could say that about any Airstream.) The Touareg worked out its' tongue weight problem. When we were interested in it a year or more ago, it had no weight distribution system on it and Volkswagen didn't realize that a tongue weight of 271 lbs was not adequate for pulling a trailer of 7,000 lbs. When someone informed them of this, their legal department told them to pull their advertising pictures of the car pulling 25' Airstreams. Anyway, let's hear it for market populism.
Thanks for the info.
Mike G

Silvertwinkie · 06-03-2006, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnostic

Thanks,
Among others, we are going to look at a used 4-Runner 4WD, V6, with a stated towing capacity of 6,400.(Is that really true?
Mike G

Here is what's listed off the Toyota site for the new(er) Toyota 4 Runners:

Towing capacity [7] (lb.) (2WD/4WD-SR5/Sports/Edition Limited Edition)

V6 models (standard weight-carrying)
5000/5000 5000/5000 5000/5000

V8 models (standard weight-distributing hitch)

7300/7000 7300/7000 7300/7000

I think you could get by with the V6 and a 16' Bambi. If you have any idea of upgrading in the future (family, another pet, whatever) and you think you might need a bit more space, say a 19' or a 22', or if you plan on hitting the mountains big time, I'd think hard about the V8 as the V6 would start to show limitations.

The 109" wheelbase doesn't concern me too much with a 16' or a 19'. I'd start getting uneasy at 22', but that's just me being over cautions I think and besides, a 22' isn't not an issue for you now anyway...right?

The reason I say look ahead beyond today, upward of say 3 or 4 years from now is to take a good, hard, honest look at you in 3-4 years. We started off with the two of us and a dog with a 19' and it was so cute and we could tow it with what we had. Next thing you know the alum bug bit, interest rates were low and a bit over a year later, one day a 25' Safari was on the driveway somehow. I had to upgrade tow vehicles, but I upgraded tow vehicles to accomidate at least 1 to 2 sizes larger Airstream if I had to. Since then I've gotten married, added another dog to the zoo here and got into bringing fishing poles, croquet, lawn darts, etc. ....and that's how it starts.

Gnostic · 06-03-2006, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

Here is what's listed off the Toyota site for the new(er) Toyota 4 Runners:

Towing capacity [7] (lb.) (2WD/4WD-SR5/Sports/Edition Limited Edition)

V6 models (standard weight-carrying)
5000/5000 5000/5000 5000/5000

V8 models (standard weight-distributing hitch)

7300/7000 7300/7000 7300/7000

I think you could get by with the V6 and a 16' Bambi. If you have any idea of upgrading in the future (family, another pet, whatever) and you think you might need a bit more space, say a 19' or a 22', or if you plan on hitting the mountains big time, I'd think hard about the V8 as the V6 would start to show limitations.

The 109" wheelbase doesn't concern me too much with a 16' or a 19'. I'd start getting uneasy at 22', but that's just me being over cautions I think and besides, a 22' isn't not an issue for you now anyway...right?

The reason I say look ahead beyond today, upward of say 3 or 4 years from now is to take a good, hard, honest look at you in 3-4 years. We started off with the two of us and a dog with a 19' and it was so cute and we could tow it with what we had. Next thing you know the alum bug bit, interest rates were low and a bit over a year later, one day a 25' Safari was on the driveway somehow. I had to upgrade tow vehicles, but I upgraded tow vehicles to accomidate at least 1 to 2 sizes larger Airstream if I had to. Since then I've gotten married, added another dog to the zoo here and got into bringing fishing poles, croquet, lawn darts, etc. ....and that's how it starts.

Dear SilverTwinkie,
Thanks, I've had this argument with my wife. What if we go for the 25' Safari that we've seen and liked. I particularly like the bed arrangement and the one I saw had a fold-down desk which would make a great office / edit room. (We produce documentaries shown on PBS)
However, a dealer is offering a good deal to clear out '06 models of 4Runners:$28,000.00 for the 4-WD V6. with lots of options.
It's troubling that they don't have the max tongue weight figure; the V6 doesn't have any weight distribution as does the V8, it doesn't list a "towing package," itemizing a bigger radiator, oil cooler, etc. but maybe it is a standard thing. The dealer is supposed to find out all this stuff and I've tried getting specs from the Toyota web site, but no good so far. The 4Runner is slightly lighter than the RX 400h, and it has slightly less horsepower, but it does have much better towing specs. Besides, my wife loves the 4Runner and she says if we get the 25' Safari, we'll get another car. Oh well! I feel better about towing with the 4Runner and your shared experience is much appreciated.
Mike G

2airishuman · 06-03-2006, 06:42 PM

a little clarification

none of the tow vehicles have weight distribution NONE.....not the v6 not the v8. it isn't an option on any vehicle....none

some have load leveling rear suspensions.... which IS NOT the same thing as a weight distribution hitch....

wt distribution is a function of the hitch IF the hitch will accept weight distribution bars.

the 2inch hole on the back of your tow vehicle is not a hitch, it is the receiver FOR a hitch....

the v6 is rated to 5000 before OPTIONS, passengers and gear are put INSIDE....the suv will carry upto 1200lbs and that will reduce the towing capacity to 3800lbs... the max tongue wt for this setup is 500 lbs....on the ball.

the v8 is rated up to 7000 again, before OPTIONS passengers and gear are put inside..the towing capacity is REDUCED as cargo is added to the suv...so again it 1200lbs is put IN the suv the towind capacity declines to 5800lbs approx....

IF YOU BUY A WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION HITCH and install it.....the max tongue wt will be approx 700lbs...

the little parethesis in the 4runner specs (with a weight distribution hitch)
means the owner CAN buy purchase and install this to increase towing to 7k.....

sorry to disagree but the 4runner is a poor choice for towing anything more than your bambi....

yes it has better towing numbers than the rx...models because it is body on frame constuction so the frame is better suited to tow....with a w/d hitch.

do not need w/d bars with your 16ft bambi regardless.....

but would benefit from a sway control setup....

the touareg towing specs (approx 7400lb) IS NOT affected by passengers, gear and stuff added inside......that's right.

the touareg has a gcwr (total of everything) of approx 3000lb MORE than the 4 runner....that means the 4runner is in the 10-12k range while the vw is 15k......

either the vw or a used land rover/lx would be much better for towing than the 4runner which is better than your rx400h....

and if you really want the 4 runner size....get a 4 door tundra..it will be better at this than the 4 runner.... look at 'dougjamie' profile for a picture of this setup.....bambi and tundra...nice!!!!!

still you will need to add sway control for any of these set ups....

and again you don't really need a w/d hitch for the 16ft trailer....19 or bigger yes.

the 25 safari is great but shouldn't be towed with ANY of the vehicles you've suggested...

please,
regardless of what you buy to tow with or what trailer you pull....i'd suggest spending a little time learning this terminology and towing math....before it cost you in money, safety and so on.....also keep in mind, most of us try to stay round 80% of the limits listed.....not 100% of the limits....

good luck
2air'

BillTex · 06-03-2006, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnostic

Thanks,
Among others, we are going to look at a used 4-Runner 4WD, V6, with a stated towing capacity of 6,400.(Is that really true? The problem with domestic cars is that they lose their value overnight and our experience with Toyota is that they don't. The used GX470 Lexus is nice, but more money. (But then you could say that about any Airstream.) The Touareg worked out its' tongue weight problem. When we were interested in it a year or more ago, it had no weight distribution system on it and Volkswagen didn't realize that a tongue weight of 271 lbs was not adequate for pulling a trailer of 7,000 lbs. When someone informed them of this, their legal department told them to pull their advertising pictures of the car pulling 25' Airstreams. Anyway, let's hear it for market populism.
Thanks for the info.
Mike G

I never bought anything based on what it "might" be worth tomorrow (except stocks/mutual funds).

2airishuman has pretty much summed it up for you...

Gnostic · 06-03-2006, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

a little clarification

none of the tow vehicles have weight distribution NONE.....not the v6 not the v8. it isn't an option on any vehicle....none

some have load leveling rear suspensions.... which IS NOT the same thing as a weight distribution hitch....

wt distribution is a function of the hitch IF the hitch will accept weight distribution bars.

the 2inch hole on the back of your tow vehicle is not a hitch, it is the receiver FOR a hitch....

the v6 is rated to 5000 before OPTIONS, passengers and gear are put INSIDE....the suv will carry upto 1200lbs and that will reduce the towing capacity to 3800lbs... the max tongue wt for this setup is 500 lbs....on the ball.

the v8 is rated up to 7000 again, before OPTIONS passengers and gear are put inside..the towing capacity is REDUCED as cargo is added to the suv...so again it 1200lbs is put IN the suv the towind capacity declines to 5800lbs approx....

IF YOU BUY A WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION HITCH and install it.....the max tongue wt will be approx 700lbs...

the little parethesis in the 4runner specs (with a weight distribution hitch)
means the owner CAN buy purchase and install this to increase towing to 7k.....

sorry to disagree but the 4runner is a poor choice for towing anything more than your bambi....

yes it has better towing numbers than the rx...models because it is body on frame constuction so the frame is better suited to tow....with a w/d hitch.

do not need w/d bars with your 16ft bambi regardless.....

but would benefit from a sway control setup....

the touareg towing specs (approx 7400lb) IS NOT affected by passengers, gear and stuff added inside......that's right.

the touareg has a gcwr (total of everything) of approx 3000lb MORE than the 4 runner....that means the 4runner is in the 10-12k range while the vw is 15k......

either the vw or a used land rover/lx would be much better for towing than the 4runner which is better than your rx400h....

and if you really want the 4 runner size....get a 4 door tundra..it will be better at this than the 4 runner.... look at 'dougjamie' profile for a picture of this setup.....bambi and tundra...nice!!!!!

still you will need to add sway control for any of these set ups....

and again you don't really need a w/d hitch for the 16ft trailer....19 or bigger yes.

the 25 safari is great but shouldn't be towed with ANY of the vehicles you've suggested...

please,
regardless of what you buy to tow with or what trailer you pull....i'd suggest spending a little time learning this terminology and towing math....before it cost you in money, safety and so on.....also keep in mind, most of us try to stay round 80% of the limits listed.....not 100% of the limits....

good luck
2air'

Yes,
The 4Runner is only for the 16' Bambi. As I said before, a 25' Safari would mean buying another tow vehicle. Also, I have no interest in the VW Touareg. Yes, I do understand that weight is weight whether it is in the back of the tow vehicle, or in the trailer, etc. Thanks for the clariification about "weight distribution hitch." I have been considering the Reese Dual Cam HP Sway Control. Can you attach this without the spring bars? I have only seen them illustrated with the spring bars.
Mike G

CanoeStream · 06-03-2006, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnostic

Dear SilverTwinkie,
Thanks, I've had this argument with my wife. What if we go for the 25' Safari that we've seen and liked. ......... It's troubling that they don't have the max tongue weight figure; the V6 doesn't have any weight distribution as does the V8, it doesn't list a "towing package," itemizing a bigger radiator, oil cooler, etc. but maybe it is a standard thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnostic

Yes, the 4Runner is only for the 16' Bambi. As I said before, a 25' Safari would mean buying another tow vehicle.

Mike -- Good for you that you realize the 25' would require a much bigger tow vehicle. When I upgraded from my 3850# Argosy to the Safari I had to trade out a Nissan Titan just because the weight bearing capacity of the truck wouldn't carry anything but a bare two people and the tongue weight.

Mike, I will point out that the Toyota 4-Runner website does have numbers that tell you what your tongue weight should be. Sometimes a vehicle website does directly list load capacity, though the 4-Runner's website doesn't. Load capacity is the maximum weight that should be on the prospective tow vehicle regardless of whether a trailer is in tow. What the 4-Runner website does list under Capacities is the Curb Weight and the GVWR; the difference between these two numbers is the sum that must not be exceeded by people, pets & luggage & hitch apparatus & tongue weight on the tow vehicle.* Thus I come up with about 1300# for a V6 2WD and 1500# for a V8 4WD. That being said, the wheelbase of a 4-Runner and so many other medium to medium-large SUVs is deficient for towing a trailer as long or heavy as a 25' or 28'. Opinions vary; do your homework.

I compliment you that you realize the 25' Safari is a step up. I would suggest it is two steps up; ie, the current day lower capacity Tundras would just be making the grade, but only if you don't place many other loads in the truck bed! It'll be very interesting how the numbers change with the larger 2007 Tundras -- I'll bet they learned something from the Titan numbers being so low (1300# load capacity for my former 4WD top trim level Titan). It is difficult to increase capacity and maintain a cushy ride though.

With or without load distribution gear you must pay special attention to not overload any axle rating. It is for this reason that weight distribution gear was developed to transfer some hitch load off the rear axle to the front axle. I will submit that load capacity and axle ratings are much more critical than tow capacity or GCWR -- but in this specifications driven world the latter two seem so, so simple. So, so simple ...

. Honestly, you just about cannot exceed tow capacity or GCWR if you truly stay within load capacity and axle ratings.

* See Airstream's FAQ page sections on tongue weight & weight ratings. It's not running very well this week at all. If the link doesn't stay the same it has been in their Airstreamer customers' page, listed individually as the FAQ area (frequently asked questions). I suspect these problems have something to do with the June-July turnover to the new model year and that they're reworking their website.

2airishuman · 06-03-2006, 08:45 PM

technically one could "attach" the reese dual cam without the bars, but the bars provide both the w/d and the anti sway functions, so both would be lost.

the spring bars flex when loaded, this flexion keeps them "in" the cams, which control sway.

so on a 16 with a possible tongue wt of 400-600lbs
the spring bars should match this parameter.....

given a single axle,
hitting a hole, road edge, having a flat and so on...
becomes a big event
and this would be a valid reason for sway control
beyond basic driving issues like wind and traffic...
and a properly adjusted brake controller.

i'm not promoting the vw,
just using it as an example.
it supports up to 700lbs at the ball without w/d...
and the tow rating is not affected by passengers, cargo or fuel
up to the max payload.
this is unusual.

almost every other vehicle used for towing
gives a tow capacity that IS
reduced by payload....
so the 5k rating for the 4 runner is a soft number
that's the point....
with 450lb of people and dogs
the rating drops to 4500...
and so on down.....

the v6 model and v8 model have the same frame
so there is no reason a w/d hitch couldn't be used on either
but the factory reciever on the v6 model
would need to be replaced with a receiver that will accept the stress of w/d
reese sells these too or the oem toyota v8 receiver...

have you ever weighed your bambi?
with personal gear for 2 and work items
and water and lp and so on?

it itsn't wise to rely on factory numbers
they are only estimates...

cheers
2air'

Silvertwinkie · 06-03-2006, 10:28 PM

A 16' Bambi will not exceed 3500lbs unless you store stuff on the floor, the countertops, under the table, etc. There just isn't enough room/storage space to put thousands of lbs of gear in it. Additionally, Airstream weighs the coaches and lists the base weight, this is NOT an estimate. They then add and list the weight of water, LP, etc, then has the NCC (net cargo capacity) to come up with the GVWR based on design and axle rating. If you exceed 3500lbs, which I doubt you would based on what you've said so far, you'll most likely bust the axle on the 16' Bambi, before you run into towing issues with the V6 4Runner. Where weighing the RV becomes important is when you have larger RVs and can carry more stuff with you, but the base weight and calcuated add on weights like water, LP, etc are in fact accurate. NCC is where folks get into trouble, but as I said in a 16' unit, you'll be hard pressed to over fill it.

Additionally, if you plan on upgrading, a lot of the chatter here is moot. If you upgrade, you'll get a new tow vehicle and that's half the issue that most folks don't get, but I'd stand by the suggestion that the V6 4Runner is good to 16', while the V8 4Runner might also be good for up to 22'.

On the issue of sway, you'd do just fine with a friction sway contol unit. When you get beyond 19', then Dual Cam, Hensley, etc start to make more sense.

As for weight bars, I can't see the 16' hitch weight getting beyond say 450lbs. Here is where some trial and error might come into play, unless someone has a 4Runner and a 16' and can tell you how it works. I had to try the 800#bars, then the 600s before I found the sweet spot for my setup. eBay sells the bars for something like $60 compared to buying them retail for $149 or more.

In the end, your 16', with the wife, pooches, fuel etc will do just fine with the 16' Bambi with the V6 4Runner. Beyond the 16', you seem to have a great grasp and understanding of what's needed.

Happy travels!

lewster · 06-04-2006, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

technically one could "attach" the reese dual cam without the bars, but the bars provide both the w/d and the anti sway functions, so both would be lost.

the spring bars flex when loaded, this flexion keeps them "in" the cams, which control sway.

so on a 16 with a possible tongue wt of 400-600lbs
the spring bars should match this parameter.....

given a single axle,
hitting a hole, road edge, having a flat and so on...
becomes a big event
and this would be a valid reason for sway control
beyond basic driving issues like wind and traffic...
and a properly adjusted brake controller.

i'm not promoting the vw,
just using it as an example.
it supports up to 700lbs at the ball without w/d...
and the tow rating is not affected by passengers, cargo or fuel
up to the max payload.
this is unusual.

almost every other vehicle used for towing
gives a tow capacity that IS
reduced by payload....
so the 5k rating for the 4 runner is a soft number
that's the point....
with 450lb of people and dogs
the rating drops to 4500...
and so on down.....

the v6 model and v8 model have the same frame
so there is no reason a w/d hitch couldn't be used on either
but the factory reciever on the v6 model
would need to be replaced with a receiver that will accept the stress of w/d
reese sells these too or the oem toyota v8 receiver...

have you ever weighed your bambi?
with personal gear for 2 and work items
and water and lp and so on?

it itsn't wise to rely on factory numbers
they are only estimates...

cheers
2air'

The Sprinter is rated tha same way as the Toureg. 5000lb tow capacity with 500lb. tongue weight with or without WD at full van load of 3550 lbs.....8550 lbs GVWR and CGWR of 13,550lbs. We'll see in a few weeks how well the 2.7L turbo diesel does in the mountains! I think I'd better get used to going S-L-O-W!!!

Gnostic · 06-06-2006, 09:29 AM

From the RX400h Owner's manual (p465) "The gross combination weight (sum of your vehicle weight plus its load and the total trailer weight must not exceed 9,020 lb." - The curb weight of the RX400h...4,369 lb. - the estimated load of the RX400h, (including my wife and I, dogs, and everything else)... 700 lb. - GVWR of the 16' Bambi...3,500 lb. ---This leaves a margin of safety of 451 lb.
Mike G

CanoeStream · 06-06-2006, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnostic

From the RX400h Owner's manual (p465) "The gross combination weight (sum of your vehicle weight plus its load and the total trailer weight must not exceed 9,020 lb." - The curb weight of the RX400h...4,369 lb. - the estimated load of the RX400h, (including my wife and I, dogs, and everything else)... 700 lb. - GVWR of the 16' Bambi...3,500 lb. ---This leaves a margin of safety of 451 lb.
Mike G

Mike -- You are right to leave a margin of safety. There have been some rules of thumb of staying as much as 15% below capacity.

The Tow Prep Package has useful items such as transmission cooler, heavy duty battery and radiator. These facilitate towing but don't increase capacity. Lexus' own http://www.lexus.com/models/glossary.html?entry=towing page says "Do not exceed any weight ratings and review all instructions and cautions from your trailer-hitch manufacturer and Lexus vehicle Owner's Manual. Note that the maximum amount you can tow depends on the total weight of any cargo, occupants and optional (or available) equipment in the vehicle."

The Lexus website fails to mention the GVWR of the RX400 alone. "my wife and I, dogs, and everything else" plus the tongue weight must not put your tow vehicle over its individual GVWR. This sum is called either "payload" or "load capacity." Another way of expressing it in formula is "Curb Weight" + "Payload" = "GVWR." Since the website doesn't have this number you will have to rely on your owners manual -- I'm sure it is in there.

My GMC Sierra's manual says, "The tongue load of any trailer is an important weight to measure because it affects the total or gross weight of your vehicle. The Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) includes the curb weight of the vehicle, any cargo you may carry in it, and the people who will be riding in the vehicle. If you have a lot of options, equipment, passengers or cargo in your vehicle, it will reduce the tongue weight your vehicle can carry, which will also reduce the trailer weight your vehicle can tow.

Some conflicts between the tow vehicle GVWR rule and GCWR do exist. Go with the most conservative IMHO and this almost always ends up being the tow vehicle's GVWR. My manual quotes are clear but only backs up the experienced opinions I have trusted the most on these forums (RoadKingMoe and others).

My honkin' GMC 3/4-ton TV owner's manual says, "Maximum trailer weight is calculated assuming only the driver is in the tow vehicle .... The weight of additional optional equipment, passengers and cargo in the tow vehicle must be subtracted from the maximum trailer weight."

There is much more ... but glorious technology or not, you will find a consistent opinion in the forums that there never is such a thing as too much tow vehicle. And you will hear many guarded opinions about towing capacity of mid-sized SUVs (which is where the Lexus 300-400 series and Toyota Highlander fall). That being said, let's be safe out there and I am sure you will exercise all due analysis and cautions.