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Old 10-29-2008, 08:30 PM   #21
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If you look at the video on their web site, you'll see that for WD hitch use, they hang the 'L' shank of the WD hitch when the std model would mount the ball...

In other words, the airbag device is mounted into the TV's 2" hitch tube, then the WD's shank is hung off the back, and somewhat below where it would normally mount...then the actual WD hitch is mounted to the shank in a normal manner....check the video carefully...they don't give you much detail with a WD hitch, as it tends to increase the length between the TV and the trailer's coupler...don't know about ground clearance differences, they don't mention that area.

I agree that airbag sounds like a good idea to take care any 'for/aft' 'slamming' one might have...but I prefer a more 'rigid' connection so if something begins to come 'loose' back there I might notice it quicker...the air bag may tend to mask something coming loose, IMHO...

Proper sized WD hitch bars, proper tire inflation, and axles with plenty of 'life' left in them should take care of most 'loose rivet' and trailer 'rough ride' problems.
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Old 10-30-2008, 11:59 AM   #22
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Rugger, I think a one-ton dually would easily handle a 28-foot Airstream without the need for weight transfer. I often tow a 28-foot 6K trailer with my F250 Powerstroke without weight-transfer bars, but I do use a couple of friction sway bars to dampen the 18-wheelers blow-bys. I have been very well pleased with the results.

The use of a weight-transfer hitch adds about 3-inches to the length of the AirSafe hitch setup. The extra length comes from an attachment bar which the weight-transfer hitch bolts to. I have one, and it does not have any measurable effect on handling, sway, etc.

I have a Class V AirSafe hitch. I believe it is rated to handle up to 14,000 pounds with a 1400-pound hitch weight. I looked at the heavier Class VI AirSafe with the shocks, but decided that it was way overkill for me. I assume the shocks are needed to handling trailers over the Class V ratings, which are very heavy at more than 14,000 pounds. I can understand the need for shock absorbers at that weight level. But I assumed that for lesser weights that a Class V can handle, a too-heavy hitch with shocks might lessen the positive effects of the Firestone airbags by hampering the designed cushioning effect of the bags unnecessarily.

Regarding the life of the bags, I have read they have an expected life of at least 10 years, and probably much more. They are off-the-shelf Firestone air bags, the same heavy-duty type as used on 18-wheeler suspensions for many years. The bags are also widely used in such applications as add-on air-lift suspension aids for heavily ladened pickups, especially those with heavy fifth-wheelers and truck campers on their backs. When the bags are in need of replacement, they can be easily installed on the AirSafe hitch.

Perhaps a better design can be developed, but the AirSafe hitch is a great product. I've had mine for about three years now and have towed around 20,000 miles with it. It really has smoothed-out the ride for both me and my trailers.
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:13 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Airstreamer67 View Post
Rugger, I think a one-ton dually would easily handle a 28-foot Airstream without the need for weight transfer. I often tow a 28-foot 6K trailer with my F250 Powerstroke without weight-transfer bars, but I do use a couple of friction sway bars to dampen the 18-wheelers blow-bys. I have been very well pleased with the results.

The use of a weight-transfer hitch adds about 3-inches to the length of the AirSafe hitch setup. The extra length comes from an attachment bar which the weight-transfer hitch bolts to. I have one, and it does not have any measurable effect on handling, sway, etc.

I have a Class V AirSafe hitch. I believe it is rated to handle up to 14,000 pounds with a 1400-pound hitch weight. I looked at the heavier Class VI AirSafe with the shocks, but decided that it was way overkill for me. I assume the shocks are needed to handling trailers over the Class V ratings, which are very heavy at more than 14,000 pounds. I can understand the need for shock absorbers at that weight level. But I assumed that for lesser weights that a Class V can handle, a too-heavy hitch with shocks might lessen the positive effects of the Firestone airbags by hampering the designed cushioning effect of the bags unnecessarily.

Regarding the life of the bags, I have read they have an expected life of at least 10 years, and probably much more. They are off-the-shelf Firestone air bags, the same heavy-duty type as used on 18-wheeler suspensions for many years. The bags are also widely used in such applications as add-on air-lift suspension aids for heavily ladened pickups, especially those with heavy fifth-wheelers and truck campers on their backs. When the bags are in need of replacement, they can be easily installed on the AirSafe hitch.

Perhaps a better design can be developed, but the AirSafe hitch is a great product. I've had mine for about three years now and have towed around 20,000 miles with it. It really has smoothed-out the ride for both me and my trailers.
Your truck is not magical.

It can be shoved into a ditch, as you already posted saying you need "2" sway controls.

To attempt to tow that trailer, with your non-magical truck, is spelling disaster with a capital "D".

Use a proper rated load equalizing hitch.

Your family and friends, and other innocent highway travelers, will love you for it.

You say you "think" it can be done!!!

My 42 years with Airstream and investigating "AND" proving what caused loss of control accidents when towing an Airstream, over 1000 times, says it "CANNOT BE DONE".

But, if you have no regard for the safety of yourself and others, then that's another poor judgement matter.

Andy
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:45 PM   #24
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Guys,

I tow with a Ford Dually Crew.. miles of truck. My trailer is heavy and im sure in the wrong conditions.. the trailer could over take the truck.. i also think that the other 97% of the time my truck is overkill. You are both right but Andy is leaning towards safety. I work for Volvo.. I have investigated many accidents and usually the client always walks away from these accidents due to the cage that surrounds them. When i drive by a vehicle thats towing something.. i, like you guys always look at the set up and would alert the driver if i saw a problem. If i saw his truck without sway control im sure i wouldnt flag him down.. if i passed and saw all kinds of trick hitch set ups.. i might not give him the thumbs up either? Andy, im sure he has good judgement and has a regard for safety, its just kinda up to the owner how he wants to ultimatly set up his rig. Just one mans opinion.
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Old 10-30-2008, 01:43 PM   #25
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Andy, I use "two" sway-bars because the manufacturer's instructions say to do so, since my trailer is over 25-feet-long. For a trailer under that length, the manufacturer says one sway-bar is sufficient.

That is why I use two.

I don't know if I actually "need" two or not, since I have never had any sway.

Is that OK with you?

I still am of the opinion that a one-ton diesel dually would be well-balanced with a 28-foot Airstream without a weight-transfer hitch. I don't know of any weight parameters that would be violated with such a rig. That size truck is engineered to carry that much weight on the hitch and/or in the bed. Also, ask the professionals who deliver new rigs to dealers whether the combo is safe or not.
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Old 10-30-2008, 02:48 PM   #26
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Hitch and bed loading are different

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airstreamer67 View Post
... That size truck is engineered to carry that much weight on the hitch and/or in the bed. ...
It's a no-brainer about the bed's load-carrying capability as it sits directly over the rear axle. The hitch is some distance away from the axle, and, as such, must be considered differently when heavy loads are attached.

I usually tow my light-weight vintage Airstream with my vintage, 3/4-ton Suburban. I can tell a difference in steering when the weight distribution bars are set at four links under tension instead of the proper three links under tension.

I could very easily be wrong, but I am fairly sure that your hitch has stamped ratings on it that recommend "load distribution" for certain loads.

Tom
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Old 10-30-2008, 03:09 PM   #27
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Andy, I use "two" sway-bars because the manufacturer's instructions say to do so, since my trailer is over 25-feet-long. For a trailer under that length, the manufacturer says one sway-bar is sufficient.

That is why I use two.

I don't know if I actually "need" two or not, since I have never had any sway.

Is that OK with you?

I still am of the opinion that a one-ton diesel dually would be well-balanced with a 28-foot Airstream without a weight-transfer hitch. I don't know of any weight parameters that would be violated with such a rig. That size truck is engineered to carry that much weight on the hitch and/or in the bed. Also, ask the professionals who deliver new rigs to dealers whether the combo is safe or not.
The laws of physics disagrees with you.

Common safet towing practices disagree with you.

Caravanner Insurance data from over 1000 loss of control accidents, while towing an Airstream trailer, disagrres with you.

Riding in the back of your trailer while being towed at 60 mph, I beleive, would change your mind.

Again, the simple use of a sway control device, of any type, owns up to a sway condition.

Andy
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Old 10-30-2008, 05:44 PM   #28
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---Use a proper rated load equalizing hitch.---
Assuming that the function of a load equalizing hitch is to remove load from the rear axle of the tow vehicle and add load to the front axle --
how much load should be removed from the rear and how much load should be added to the front of an F350 dually after it has been hooked to a new Intl 28?

What would be the proper load rating for an equalizing hitch to achieve such a redistribution of load?

Ron
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Old 10-30-2008, 06:22 PM   #29
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Interesting but confusing. The website doesn't do the product justice. It's hard to know what to order, how it fits together, and how to set it up. May be great but the guys in the garage who came up with it are doing a poor job of education and promotion. The videos are not professional quality and don't show any advantage.
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Old 10-30-2008, 06:38 PM   #30
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Hey Ron, You can get in the weeds with that pretty quick and I'm sure a more scientific answer is coming but what I do is measure the bumper height and return it to that height with the correct length of chain on the bars. You're in the ballpark. Weighing front axle, rear axle and trailer tongue weight and then finding the correct setting that puts half on each axle is a pain but more accurate.
For what its worth, I'm known to run up to the lake on winding roads without WD or sway, even with my family on board. Call me a rebel.
Long interstate trips, I'll hook up the WD. BTW, I've only seen 3 jack knifes recently and all had WD hitches and sway bars. Not a suggestion not to use them but they don't prevent jack knifes. Smart driving based on the conditions (factoring what you have for equipment) goes a long way.
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Old 10-31-2008, 12:00 PM   #31
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Andy, I think Ron has an interesting question regarding how much weight needs to be transferred to the front axle of an F350 dually diesel while towing a 28-foot Airstream in order to make the rig safe enough for the road.

As a logical extension, I would also be interested in how much weight you think needs to be transferred if that 28-foot Airstream were towed by an F450, or F550?

In fact, can you visualize any case in which a weight-transfer hitch would not be necessary, or even be counterproductive?

I have been led to believe that weight-transfer hitches first became popular in the 1950s for those vehicles, especially soft-sprung and long-overhung automobiles, that become overloaded in the rear by a trailer and thus needed the weight transfer for proper steering, braking and handling.

I also was under the impression that, in general, the issue of sway control was handled by anti-sway bars, which was a separate piece of equipment.

In more recent years, new designs such as the cam-operated friction devices and the Hensely were developed which combined both weight-transfer and sway functions.

I know your 42 years with Airstream has given you a great amount of insight on the topic. In fact, your experience has even led to your disagreeing with and very harshly criticizing a leading hitch manufacturer and its engineers on matters regarding how much weight should be transferred with various tow vehicles.

Thanks for the information!
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Old 11-07-2008, 11:38 AM   #32
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Looked it up on the DODGE site, with my 3/4-T diesel:

"While it's not listed in the charts, tongue weight [i] is also an important consideration. The recommended tongue weight is between 10 & 15% of the trailer weight. However, the maximum tongue weight on Class III (The bumper ball) is limited to 500 lbs, and Class IV (The receiver hitch) to 1200 lbs.This requirement overrides any recommended GTW rating, between 10% and 15% of gross trailer weight (GTW). Additionally, the GAWRs and GVWRs should never be exceeded."

And, the note that, on trailers above 5,000-lbs, a weight-distributing hitch IS REQUIRED (and that above 12,000-lbs only a gooseneck or fifth wheel is acceptable).

You all still second-guessing Ph.D. engineers? I've been driving 1,000 or more miles per week the past few months and I have YET to see any bumper hitch trailer NOT swaying when without a W/D hitch; ANY kind of trailer, RV, boat or construction.
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Old 11-07-2008, 12:08 PM   #33
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I've been driving 1,000 or more miles per week the past few months and I have YET to see any bumper hitch trailer NOT swaying when without a W/D hitch; ANY kind of trailer, RV, boat or construction.[/QUOTE]

Amen to that: we followed a AS in Arizona last year that was was swaying
so much I could not even pass it for fear of pushing them off the road, or
them pushing ME off the road! We finally pulled off, it was too freaky.
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Old 11-07-2008, 06:59 PM   #34
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We have been using the Commercial Air Ride Hitch since 2003 about $1,500.00 US. Used with a Reese equalization setup. Would not go anywhere without it. The best invention for TV's because they take all the bounce, jerking and white knuckle out of towing. Along with Centramatic wheel balancers on your AS you will not find drawers open or stuff moved around on the inside of the trailer. Well worth the investment.
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Old 11-08-2008, 02:28 AM   #35
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Rednax, I'm not sure who you are addressing, but I don't see anyone saying that you should exceed any manufacturer's recommendations on hitch weight, either with or without weight-transfer bars. I don't see anyone second-guessing of PhD engineers here, except perhaps someone who is in dispute with the hitch manufactuers' engineers, and that is not me.

All my weight-related towing parameters are as good as or better than manufacturers' specs. I am not violating any known specification from any equipment manufacturer that I utilize. I have never experienced sway in my 22 years of towing travel trailers coast-to-coast, and I'm trying real hard to never do so.
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Old 11-08-2008, 02:40 AM   #36
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I tow my '69 Trade Wind with a '97 Chevy C3500 crew cab dually. I discovered that the truck drives and rides better while towing to leave the WD hitch at home. I use a simple friction type anti-sway device and it pulls great. And yes, the WD hitch was set up properly. A 1-ton truck is designed to have some weight on the tail end. The hitch didn't accomplish anything but keeping the rear suspension in just the right range to make it ride way rougher than necessary.
I've been looking at an air hitch for a while now. So far, I don't have any rivets popping or skin cracking, but I'm a little concerned about all the horror stories.
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Old 11-08-2008, 03:05 AM   #37
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Tinsel Loaf, I agree with you on the Air Ride (now called AirSafe) hitch. I've been using the Class V (about $1000) since 2005 because my trailers did not need the capacity of the commercial-class versions. This hitch manufacturer has produced a product that is first-class, no matter what weight-class hitch is required.

I find it interesting that the concept of the air hitch is much more popular for fifth-wheelers. I suppose it is because of the very heavy hitch weight specified for fifth wheelers (20% to 25% of total weight), which evidently affects the ride quality of the tow vehicle much more than lighter-hitch-weight travel trailers.

About the wheel balancing, I ordered a set of the Centramatic balancers, but the size that was supposed to fit my Airstream didn't actually fit. Serendipity, however: I found they did fit my Jeep Wrangler, so I'm using them on it to good effect.

For my Airstream wheel balancing, I then ordered some Dynabeads, and they work very well indeed. I've been quite pleased with the balancing effect of the Dynabeads. The advantage of such wheel-balancing efforts (Centramatics and Dynabeads) is they seem to accommodate the whole wheel assembly problem described often by Andy, except they don't have to be rebalanced every 12000 miles or so, since they automatically stay in balance by their very design.

The result of the AirSafe hitch and the automatic continuous wheel balancing: the smoothest trailer towing I have ever experienced. And my trailers' parts are now staying in place too, rivets and all.

Journalist, if you ever decide to try the ride-on-air hitch design, you won't ever go back, and you'll wonder what took you so long. At least, that was the effect it had on me and my trailers.
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Old 11-08-2008, 05:46 PM   #38
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"In fact, can you visualize any case in which a weight-transfer hitch would not be necessary, or even be counterproductive?

I'd say, Airstreamer67, that this statement (challenge) more than meets the qualification of "exceeds manufacturers recommendations" as it is not the hitch manufacturer who drives this question, it is the vehicle manufacturer, first, the RV manufacturer second and only a distant, irrelevant, third the manufacturer of the hitch apparatus.

Your question -- challenge -- to Andy was one he has already answered, more than once in these forums. Since you apparently set up your hitch in a way he criticizes, your question is disingenuous (as phrased). Were you to search the forum for Andy's answers on questions of this sort you will see that his recommendations as to tow vehicles are limited (by deduction) since his championing of a particular way of rigging a hitch is quite specific.

The deduction about tow vehicle type is that some are simply too stiffly sprung. You might wish to follow up on this line of thinking as he lays out reasons. Agree or disagree, it is consistent.

Now, if we could just get him to pose, on-line, the "Twelve Questions".
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Old 11-08-2008, 06:21 PM   #39
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Now, if we could just get him to pose, on-line, the "Twelve Questions" here, or at his website:

Load distribution hitches-an analysis
Post #83

The predictive factors were arrived at by very closely examining over 1000 loss-of-control accidents while towing an Airstream trailer.

Each loss was examined as to how the tow vehicle was rigged, what kind and brand of hitch was used, what rating or ruggedness the suspension system had, what was added to the suspension system of the tow vehicle, type of sway control, if any, etc.

Gathering that information, very quickly raised "red" flags as to what setup was an accident looking for a place to happen, and what on a small scale was still a mystery.

We documented, "and proved," the cause of 90 percent of those accidents.

I will look in my very old records to see if I can find the original 12 questions that were used in each and every one of those losses.

However, posting them in this forum would probably cause a rash of arguments that I do not wish to start.

Perhaps I could post them as an article in our web site, for everyones perusal.

Andy
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Old 11-09-2008, 09:13 AM   #40
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Rednax, I'm having a problem following your line of thought(s) in your last post. Let me give it a shot:

1. I am not violating any known requirement or guideline or whatever from the manufacturer of my truck, my trailer or my hitch. What is your question or point regarding those again?

2. My question to Andy was whether a weight-distribution hitch is needed for all tow vehicles with a 28-foot Airstream. Andy has said that the hitch manufacturers are calling for weight-transfer bars that are too stiff for heavy tow vehicles, and recommends much lighter ones. I wondered what are the parameters for such a recommendation. EG, should an F250 get the same weight-transfer bars as a dually F350, F450, F550? If not, then what should they get? In other words, how much weight should be transferred to the front axles for the various trucks for proper highway safety? Is there any case that such a weight-transfer is not necessary or desirable? If this has already been answered by Andy, please cite it.

Thanks.
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